As I learn with the german version of RtK1 I noticed that some english keywords seem to be "wrong" because they do not exactly represent the kanji meaning, but in the german version totally different words are used which actually represent the kanji better. For example:

Box 55: english: upright; german: keusch (chaste);

Box 145: english: but of course; german: Zustand (condition)

What you do with this info I totally leave up to you folks...

Edita says:

Box 164: english: thin; german: blass (pale)

Box 166: english: farm; german: Acker (acre/ field)

Box 298: english: twig; german: Klausel (clause/article)

Wow. The German one is way more accurate. Those are totally off in English, and exactly right in German.

(Referenced from koudansha Kanji learner's dictionary)

If I find more I just leave them here.
I think this is interesting for anyone who wants to change keywords for more accurate keywords which are at least officially used in another language

Easily worst keyword by Heisig is 'Twig'.
Has absolutely nothing to do with twig
条

liosama Wrote:Easily worst keyword by Heisig is 'Twig'.
Has absolutely nothing to do with twig
条

I'm not sure why you are saying "twig" has nothing to do with the kanji considering it is the literal meaning of it. The compounds that make use of this kanji sometimes reflect this literal meaning at least somewhat and sometimes they don't, just like many other kanji in Japanese. If you can think of a better keyword that encompasses every compound and yet still reflects the literal meaning, I'd love to hear it.

@ silmara

I don't really have the inclination to go through every keyword that you listed, but I will use the first that you mentioned as an example. I don't know about in German, but in English "upright" is a better keyword than "chastity". The kanji in question can mean chastity, and it is usually now associated with feminine virtue, but its original meaning was simply "virtue" in general. For some examples, the kanji shows up in "teishuku" (adjective meaning virtuous but used to describe females), and also "teijitsu" (fidelity). Remember, chastity and fidelity are quite different things as any good nun would tell you. But they can both be considered morally upright in most traditional value systems.

A good keyword is one that makes for a servicable mnemonic, but it should also be general enough to cover as many of the kanji's meanings as possible. In this case, the idea of being "upright" makes for a decent mnemonic but also has the general connotation of moral uprightness and, hence, virtue needed for this character.

@ Dragg: I agree with you that "keyword switching" should not be undertaken lightly. That is why I wanted to make the list. So that people see what alternate keywords were used in another language. These german keywords were choosen in close collaboration with Heisig so I think they do also serve as "good" keywords.

I think the issue is that "upright" is too likely to be taken literally, not in the sense of "morally upright", especially with the story that Heisig supplies. I don't think that's really a problem, but I can see how others may think so.

- Kef

As for a literal interpretation, I suppose one could argue that the chaste/faithful/virtuous woman spends more of her time physically upright than in, let's just say, other positions...

Dragg Wrote:

liosama Wrote:Easily worst keyword by Heisig is 'Twig'.
Has absolutely nothing to do with twig
条

I'm not sure why you are saying "twig" has nothing to do with the kanji considering it is the literal meaning of it. The compounds that make use of this kanji sometimes reflect this literal meaning at least somewhat and sometimes they don't, just like many other kanji in Japanese. If you can think of a better keyword that encompasses every compound and yet still reflects the literal meaning, I'd love to hear it.

How does twig reflect the following meanings JWPce spits out?
article
clause
item
stripe
streak

The keyword by no way has anything to do with the literal meaning, even in a compound, you cannot say
条項 which is--> 条項 【じょうこう】 (n) clause, article, stipulations, (P)
So you're going to tell me that 'twig paragraph' can mean a clause/article because its a twig in the paragraph? There is no way you can pick a keyword that encompasses all the meanings.

@liosama

According to Kenneth G. Henshall's book, "A Guide To Remembering Japanese Characters", the character represents "wooden stick/ branch"... It goes on to say, "On the one hand "stick" led to the idea of something straight and thus "line", including in the figurative sense of a line of argument, and on the other "branch" led to the idea of something small broken off from the main part, and thus acquired connotations of "small part" and hence "item/detail". The two meanings overlapped to give a detailed line of argument, leading to "clause.""

The pictograph is clearly of hand and wood; Therefore, a twig or wooden stick makes sense as the literal meaning because it is a type of wood than can be held in the hand. Kanji Odyssey refers to the character as meaning "branch, line" which, again, could be simplified into one word, namely "twig." I'm guessing that Heisig would have used "stick" as the keyword except he had to avoid the connotation of adhesive. Furthermore, Heisig appears to have greatly preferred one-word keywords as much as possible so I think he did fine on this choice considering the goal.

An example of a compound in which the keyword semi-literally makes sense is "joutetsu" which means "bar-iron" which seems to be iron shaped into sticks as in the type that keeps prisoners in their cells.

I have henshall's book too. I love it, i still think that it's still abstract and the actual compounds it is USED in still has nothing to do with stick. You picked bar-iron out of the 3 examples that henshall gave because that seems to be the best one that favours your argument

i.e a treaty [lkana]"Jouyaku"[/kana] 条約 'twig promise' 'a treaty is a 'promise' summarized in a small 'line'or small 'twig-like' line'. No... even though what im doing here is completely wrong anway
It's just too abstract for me. Even though, according to henshall, is the actual root etymological meaning of the word, he himself doesn't even use it as a mnemonic at all. (Though that's not to say that his mnemonics are any good anyway ahhaha)

Dragg Wrote:As for a literal interpretation, I suppose one could argue that the chaste/faithful/virtuous woman spends more of her time physically upright than in, let's just say, other positions...

I don't get it.

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.lang....a82879c4e8

This may be of interest. It is essentially a grading of each keyword. I have to go get ready for work so I don't have time to read this whole post or check the credentials of the link I just gave but I think it is worth mentioning.

@ liosama

Yes, I did pick pick "bar-iron" because it is the Henshsall compound that best favors my argument. My reason is because my knowledge of Japanese is far too incomplete to be able to know all or even many of the words in Japanese that use this "twig" kanji. However, the point is that the German keyword "clause" isn't going to help you to read the bar-iron compound any easier. I think for words like treaty, you are supposed to be thinking along the lines of "branching out" to another party or "extending an olive branch" as the old saying goes. It might be a stretch but, again, isn't clause a stretch as well in this case? The strength of "twig" is that it is general enough to be seen as symbolic in some cases whereas I can't see "clause" as being anything other than a clause. (except for Santa Clause maybe... )

Kanji Odyssey was written by a Japanese native, and he also singles out "branch, line" as the primary kanji meaning although I think he might have put "article" afterwards in brackets if I remember correctly. Basically, this primary meaning seems to designate that the Japanese are thinking about twigs and such when they see this kanji.

Dont worry, after a year of doing RTK these "wrong" keywords wont mean anything.

@ mentat

I'm at about 10 months and they still mean a lot to me. More than I would like; thats for sure.

Part of the problem might be that I held off too long on doing RTK 2 and instead jumped straight into reading in context. I think the kanji keyword meanings are initially somewhat important, but over the long run they should take a backseat in the unconscious mind in favor of phonetic readings. For example, a native Japanese speaker probably isn't consciously thinking of "wind-spine" everytime he sees the kanji-form of furo (bath), but he might still be dimly aware of such a connotation. I don't want to think "wind-spine" but sometimes, even after months of seeing it in context I still can't help it. RTK 2 might not be completely necessary, but I think it works as a shortcut to this goal of seeing kanji compounds and instantly realizing their pronunciation.

Ehe, for that I'll have to wait a bit. I would not even know what you were talking about if you hadnt mentioned such a familiar word as ofuro. ^_^
I'm finishing RTK tonight, hurray! Cant wait to post in the victory thread.

English keywords are something you build on. When you have something associated with the kanji, even if it's wrong, and you're a lot better off.