I've been going through Core2k diligently, and I've learned about 1200 with around 500 mature. When I review, I usually get around 80-85% or so. But when I need to use them, such as in writing or speaking, my mind blanks, and I can only draw on really elementary, simple words that I've learned a long time ago. What's the cause for this, and how can I overcome it?

Thanks!

The more context you have a for a word the easier it will be to use it. Most likely your core sentences don't have any anchor to your life or the subject matter that you are attempting to express so your brain doesn't have any connections between that word and the subject matter you are talking or writing about.

Thus if you want to get better at speaking then watch more things where people are speaking about topics that you want to speak about. If you want to get better at writing then read about the topics you want to write about.

In general for production your brain is really good at pattern matching and replacement, so if your focus has been on individual words then you'll need to add a study method that focuses more on phrases instead.

Thanks for the tips. I've been using Nukemarine's deck with sentences, why is it that that's not sufficient for making connections?

I find that production is a different skill from recognition. In my experience what helps with production is production. Writing and talking, essentially. When we do this we exercise the part of the mind that retrieves rather than recognizes.

I find that often I know a word but I can't produce it. "Aggh what was that word for xxx?" I will know it if I see it in Anki or if I read it somewhere but I can't produce it the other way around.

Like any other skill this one requires exercise. Speaking in Japanese with a friend every day helps me. I am also trying to start a 日本語だけ forum where people can relate to each other in Japanese and use the language, but Japanese learners seem to have a very strong preference for talking about Japanese in English rather than using the language itself.

Even when you have to look up the word because you can't retrieve it, it makes it a lot easier to retrieve next time because the brain is getting exercise in working that way around.

Also I would say that language is inherently social. Using it only in non-social (or at best "practice") contexts and going back into English for all real interaction means that a very vital part of the way language works in the mind is not being exercised.

As tokyostyle said, listening to more native conversation is vital for helping speaking. Just remember, you can listen almost anywhere. And reading more will help your writing. How much do you read and listen every day?

And yeah, even if you do those things, as CureDolly said, you have to practice writing and speaking regularly or you can't write and speak. They're skills in they're own right. I think as someone still under 2k, you should focus on listening and speaking. Reading can be sort of difficult at this stage, and writing is the least useful skill. If you ever need to write something, unless your taking an exam in it, there's no time limit and dictionaries are your friend.

For listening, as I said you can listen everywhere, in your car, on the bus, while doing house chores, and i's worthwhile changing your English TV time into Japanese drama/anime time. One great thing is to rip the audio off dramas you've watched so that anything you're listening to more passively is already familiar, and so you can perfect a smaller amount of material, which is often better (though listening to some more naturally conversational podcasts is also a must see this for male speakers if you are male: http://www.voiceblog.jp/japaneselistening/ and this for female speakers if you are female: http://marimoeo.seesaa.net/). To start transferring this into speaking, after you've watched and re-listened to a drama, shadow scenes in the drama in which a character of you own gender speaks. Also try this with a few podcasts. This means, repeat what they say, including stresses and emotion, and possibly even hand gestures (will help loosen you up in conversation). However, this is almost all that I do, and this still is not enough. Next you need to seek out native language partners online and try and get speaking regularly in real conversations every day, every other day or at least every week.

Do you use production cards or just recognition cards? Cloze deletion production cards should get you much better results in this area.

Doing production cards is nothing like the thought process of speaking. One thing that can help is eliminating English by doing a J-J deck like Tanuki Ultima, which I've started doing slowly by setting the morphman 3 addon to ensure the Japanese definitions are comprehensible to me based on my other vocabulary in anki, or Japanes Level Up Intermediate. A J-J deck will speed up your speaking by eliminating your need to translate in your head. An E-J production card will have the opposite effect. But I think J-E or J-J (E-J is just not efficient), what you need to do is speak.

puretruth Wrote:I've been going through Core2k diligently, and I've learned about 1200 with around 500 mature. When I review, I usually get around 80-85% or so. But when I need to use them, such as in writing or speaking, my mind blanks, and I can only draw on really elementary, simple words that I've learned a long time ago.

Welcome to Hell. You'll want to pull up a chair.

CureDolly is right. Speaking, reading, writing, and listening are four connected yet separate competencies. Split your Japanese time between all four. The only thing that makes speaking easier is more speaking.

CureDolly Wrote:I am also trying to start a 日本語だけ forum where people can relate to each other in Japanese and use the language, but Japanese learners seem to have a very strong preference for talking about Japanese in English rather than using the language itself.

I think I would like there to be more Japanese only forums, since that would make my love of forums a bit less of a waste of time but I see where your forum is going wrong. I know your website is about cute Japanese and has a doll theme, but for me, posting on an all pink forum where everyone seems so overly cute is sort of intimidating even as a girl. If I was a guy I probably wouldn't touch it, but as a girl I went to go and post on the music thread but felt so odd about posting my favourite song, a rock song, on a thread full of uber cute AKB48 apple songs and someone playing the violin dressed as Link in the forest that I stopped. Your forum is super cute like it's name implies, but sort of niche.

My thoughts are a bit different than other people, but I have found this to work for me.

Make a production deck using collocations (short phrases).
If you want to know a noun, actually make several cards for it using different verbs that are commonly associated with that noun.

Put on a shirt.
Take off a shirt.
Button up a shirt.
etc.

For my production deck, I use English translation as the cue to produce Japanese.
Don't worry about learning every word this way, only learn the ones that you think you will really need to be able to say at some point. There's no need to learn 3 different synonyms for a word if you can get by with just a single one. Trying to use Japanese synonym words will cause the English cues to fail, as you never know what you are supposed to produce.

Full sentences should be avoided in my opinion. They only serve to create mental connections that are completely irrelevant, because part of the information in the sentence may have absolutely nothing to do with the word you are focused on. Using collocations keeps it focused to just what is important. It gives you mental connections to the words that you need.

@zarxrax

Yeah, before the trip to Japan I'm planning, I will be practising useful phrases and collocations. However, I still think translating from English into Japanese is a bad habit. My plan is to learn the phrases as recognition, then try and make sort of context production cards. I.e. questions I am likely to be asked by homestay family and answers I.e. 質問=何で関西に行きたかったですか。東京に行きたくないですか。 返事=私は歴史の興味があるから、京都や奈良などを見たいです。That was just improvised but you get what I mean. Then practice using the phrases with online native speakers in voice chat before I go.

Helena4 Wrote:Doing production cards is nothing like the thought process of speaking.

I agree with that but I had a much easier time producing words in real situations after switching to mostly production cards. Speaking is much more complicated than just remembering the right word but that's what he asked for help with.

Anyways, I don't disagree with the other advice but I do think production cards will help him with that specific problem.

@cracky
Fair enough. A mixture of all this stuff is probably good, but look above you post (I think we posted at the same time) to see how I would go about making production cards.

I think yours will work for what you want them for. I mostly just go by the rules from the supermemo article when I make my production cards. If you haven't seen it before: http://www.supermemo.com/articles/20rules.htm

Helena4 Wrote:

CureDolly Wrote:I am also trying to start a 日本語だけ forum where people can relate to each other in Japanese and use the language, but Japanese learners seem to have a very strong preference for talking about Japanese in English rather than using the language itself.

I think I would like there to be more Japanese only forums, since that would make my love of forums a bit less of a waste of time but I see where your forum is going wrong. I know your website is about cute Japanese and has a doll theme, but for me, posting on an all pink forum where everyone seems so overly cute is sort of intimidating even as a girl. If I was a guy I probably wouldn't touch it, but as a girl I went to go and post on the music thread but felt so odd about posting my favourite song, a rock song, on a thread full of uber cute AKB48 apple songs and someone playing the violin dressed as Link in the forest that I stopped. Your forum is super cute like it's name implies, but sort of niche.

Perhaps I'm being obtuse, but why not visit one of the innumerable forums that are already in Japanese, and are populated by actual native Japanese speakers?

The idea that Japanese learners are avoiding using the language is specious at best, and insulting at worst. Many of us pour hours every week into lessons, friendships, and relationships, both online and off.

@gaiaslastlaughlaugh

True stuff. I do do talk to native speakers on Sharedtalk, skype etc. But it's always nice to come back here and talk about study methods and other stuff amongst other learners, and CureDolly is right that it would be a better use of time if that was in Japanese. However, I don't agree that the learners here are avoiding using the language, it is only CureDolly that said anything alluding to that (and I'm not sure that's quite what Cure was saying). What I was saying is that there is no equivalent to this forum in Japanese only, because CureDolly's forum has made itself very niche, and so I will still be using this forum in English.

Please forgive me if I seemed to be casting aspersions. That was not my intention. I was not trying to imply anything about what people are actually doing in Japanese (which would be beyond foolish, because how could I possibly know?)

I just meant what Helena-san said, that forums for talking about Japanese learning appear to be all in English.

Thank you for your feedback on the forum's appearance, Helena-san. I really did not realize that is how it appears, though of course it was started by Kawaii Japanese Language Learning and so has its name. It isn't really intended to have a doll theme. I just happen to be a doll myself (can't help that, it is how I was made).

Apart from changing the color, and perhaps the name (which if it would make people feel happier we could certainly do) it is a bit of a vicious cycle. The few people there now can only really be who they are, so if no one else joins it will necessarily have our "tone". And if it has our tone, people may be shy to join. And if they are shy to join it will only have our tone. And so on!

Please do post your rock music video Helena-san (really, I would love it if you did). I will confess that I don't really understand rock music. Actually I don't understand a lot of things that are probably normal to everyone here. But I am always interested to see new things and to learn and I am sure others are too. And people who like the things you like will likely join.

Assuming that that really is the main problem. On the other hand, if people were actually willing to talk about Japanese in Japanese, why aren't there already similar forums?

PS : just to be clear as I don't want to be misunderstood as being 意地悪:

When I say "assuming that really is the main problem" I am not suggesting that it isn't for Helena-san. I am sure it is. And we can work to change it if that would really help a number of people to engage. And it would change automatically if people of a different "tone" from the current small group were to engage.

What I meant was, if the look/tone of the forums were the only problem, then changing those would presumably lead to a wider range people participating.

But since there seem to be no other about-Japanese-in-Japanese forums in existence, is that the main problem or is there a deeper reluctance among learners in general?

@CureDolly
I joined the forum and posted my video. Rock music itself may not be that cute, but my favourite band is a girl's rock band, so the members are pretty cute in themselves and they do have some cuter songs, so I hope the members of your forum can appreciate them.

@Helena4

本当にthank you so much for joining. I just love the song! (I even find I can understand quite a bit of it).

I really am sorry to give the impression we are just a club for cuteries! That was never the intention of the forums and I hope we can broaden the appeal. As I said, (other than the color scheme, which was actually intended to be a bit muted >blush<) a lot depends on who posts what impressions the forums give, so thank you again for posting.

これから、 自由に参加して下さい。皆さまも。

@CureDolly
I'm really glad you liked the song and I think the colour scheme could be too muted. Give us some red in that rising sun! Hahaha. But yeah, the subtle pinks are what make it overwhelmingly feminine (even though there are some guys there, I know). Bright pinks would make it a bit crazy, but bright colours in themselves are not a bad thing. Actually, in terms of pinks, a really deep pink as the feature colour with another contrasting more neutral colour like white as the main back ground and then sky blue highlights or something would be less overwhelming and actually quite nice.

I understand your intention, CureDolly - no worries. I think the issue is that most Japanese learners would prefer to talk with native speakers than with other learners. Talking with other learners increases the risk that you will reinforce basic errors that will go uncorrected. That's why I think most people tend to favor forums like Lang-8, where they can both receive corrections and have interactions with native speakers.

Thank you Gaiaslastlaugh-san. I would really hate anyone to think I was being insulting.

However, if I may respectfully take slight issue with you:

You say: "I think the issue is that most Japanese learners would prefer to talk with native speakers than with other learners."

But I don't think that is exactly the issue, is it? They do not talk with native speakers rather than with other learners. They do both. And they talk with other learners a lot. But always in English it seems.

If you are saying "It is good to talk with native speakers as much as possible" I am in 100% agreement with you.

But if you are saying "talking with non-native speakers in Japanese is so dangerous to your Japanese that you should be doing it in English" then I could not disagree more.

I think that as far as possible any communication that can be in Japanese should be in Japanese, and that continual use of the language is much more important than retreating into English for fear of errors.

I'd be interested in talking about Japanese in Japanese, but I found the language on this forum intimidating when I joined, and it's in my native language!
I'll check it out though, it's always nice to have that feeling of "I probably won't be judged poorly if I mess up, since everyone else is in the same boat".

Zarxrax Wrote:My thoughts are a bit different than other people, but I have found this to work for me.

Make a production deck using collocations (short phrases).
If you want to know a noun, actually make several cards for it using different verbs that are commonly associated with that noun.

Put on a shirt.
Take off a shirt.
Button up a shirt.
etc.

This sounds like a good idea. I'm a half-decent speaker, but collocations are still a big problem area for me. There'll be times where I have 2-3 verbs floating around in my head without any way of knowing which one matches the noun I've already said. Exposure definitely helps, but I find that the mundane, everyday (and therefore most important) examples like your ones aren't the kind of things that regularly pop up in drama, movies, novels etc.

@sholum I don't think we will be talking at as complex a level as some of the posts here. There are some things most of us still need to discuss in English. I am certainly far from denying that.

I am just suggesting that anything that can be discussed in Japanese should be (not "should" in the sense of "everyone ought to" but in the sense that for me, and perhaps some other people, this seems a good idea). There is a lot of discussion here that most members of this forum could actually manage in Japanese.

That's fine. People should do what they prefer, of course. I am just thinking it would be nice if we could make it possible for discussion of that kind to take place in Japanese for the few who want it.

So please do pop in and ask anything, raise a topic or whatever. Of course no one will be judged poorly. We are all at different levels, and all doing the best we can.