Uhm...I'm sorry if I've posted something a lot of people have, but I went through all of the posts in this section (May have missed it though, didn't read them all...)

Anyways, I'm really having trouble with Heisig's Keywords. I get them mixed up a lot (Like thick and plump) and I don't know how acurate his keywords would be as meanings.

I'm only in the mid-200's, and I've been starting to dread doing Heisig...But I need to get finished so I can begin working monolingual in Japanese (I really think it will help me in the long run, and I'm doing Khatzumoto's 10K sentence approach)

Is there any advice you might be able to give me, or ways I could use different words as Keywords?

Thanks for reading ^_^

My approach where there are keywords with confusingly similar meanings is to try to make sure the hook from keyword to story is particularly strong (so for example for 'thick' I borrowed a story from this site which talked about a "thick chick throwing her child off the cliff in broad daylight"; the rhyme takes me from 'thick' into the rest of the story and is an additional cue that I have the right one.) Stories that start with the primitives and end up with the keyword are much less useful than ones which start with the keyword and strongly tie it to the story. (How well this kind of word play works for you I don't know, of course.)

The meanings are usually close, sometimes a bit odd, and occasionally completely backwards (I'm thinking of 'town' versus 'village' in particular here). But really I think they're just hooks to help you with what you actually want to remember, which is words. You should use the keyword as a way to remember how to write the word, not as the actual meaning of the word.

Incidentally, a monolingual Japanese approach doesn't inherently require you to learn every single kanji up front, you know... Starting with kana-only is the more traditional way to do it.

My approach is similar to pm215's. When I notice a pattern of mixing up two kanji with similar keywords, I rework both stories slightly to create a clear distinction based on nuances of meaning between the two words.

After a while you'll see this coming, and when you hit a new keyword that's similar to one you already worked on you can work out the distinction while learning the new one.

Recent example for me: I found on review I was confusing 変 unusual and 異 uncommon. I created a distinction around the fact that in English, uncommon often has a positive connotation, whereas unusual is generally neutral or negative.

Those are good points, thanks ^_^

I've been trying to come up with my own stories when I see fit (Like the one for 太, I didn't like his story, so I decided to make it "A plump person picking up a Hershey's Kiss" And it works, so hey)

I know all of the hirigana, and most Katakana, so that's no problem. I just hope I can come up with a way to make them stick better.)

Should I try to lower my goal amount, maybe? I have no job (unfortunately...) and loads of free time, so I wanted to finish somewhere between 2 to 3 weeks. (Preferably one, but even with the way I feel about my intelligence, I doubt it >_>)

Anyways, thanks for reading

I think two to three weeks is optimistic, even if you're doing nothing else. Even Heisig took a month :-) There's a thread about 'how many kanji per day' which is probably a better place to have this bit of the discussion, though.

Personally, I think I'd try mixing things up a bit -- do some kanji study but also do some work with textbooks, conversation partner, class, private tutor, or whatever else. I would concentrate on the spoken language to start with; once you have a firm base in that you can extend to the written language later.

Getting the kana to stick to the point where you can read them fluently is simply a matter of practice, IMHO.

Hiragana I can pretty much look at and tell you. It's pretty slow, but I don't get them confused.

Katakana however...>_> I can read them, but it take a much longer time (Mostly because I'm also trying to figure out what the word means), and I get some mixed up (ソ and ン for example)

I'm going with the AJATT method, so I basicall do nothing but listen to Japanese stuff (As much as I can, at least. My family's not big on "Japanese" and I'm still living at home, at least until I go to college)

But I thought Heisig said don't mix it up, and only mess with his method while you're doing it.

It depends. Some people study a little Japanese on the side simply to keep from getting bored/frustrated with doing RTK all the time. It works as a reward/motivation for them to keep going. Others say if you try to do two things at the same time, you wind up doing both equally poorly. It depends a lot on your ability to focus and your ability to stick to what you've started.

A lot of what you're asking has already been discussed in this thread:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=1256

Be patient with RTK1, and make sure you do it every day. Don't lose momentum. Even if it's just reviewing expired cards, that's enough. Don't let the expired cards pile too high, don't let the failed stack get too high, and learn from your mistakes. You don't get a cookie for getting 100% right, so don't sweat it if you don't. All the reviews tell you is how well your brain is absorbing kanji stories. So be harsh on reviews, and don't be afraid to fail characters. If you see a character in your fail pile a lot, then you need to re-evaluate it story-wise, because for some reason it's not making it into your long-term memory.

I usually keep a list of "Troublesome Kanji" handy, just as something to go over every once in a while. I also keep a list of kanji keywords I get confused with each other. Use that to go in and fix stories so the confusion goes away.

The only people getting graded on this are the students at Univ. Alaska-Anchorage, so you don't have to worry too much.

Also, focus on finishing the book, but don't worry so much about deadlines. Quality over quantity. Worry more about finishing it with a firm grasp of the kanji. The more time you spend on stories, the better your overall retention rate will be, and the less time you'll spend re-writing stories.

That's true...I suppose I need to be a bit more patient...

I just want this done with (And I know that it's not supposed to work like that, but I'm human, darnit! ^_^)

I'll probably slow myself down now, although it's gonna be hard...

Thanks for the link ^_^

[ファブリス]

My hunch is that by setting yourself too high expectations (completing in anything less than two months), you are making this a chore and this will really slow you down and make it difficult.

Go for a more reasonable target like two to three months, and adjust when you get to the halfway point. Then really focus on achieving each lesson, one by one, without looking at the end date. Or if you want, calculate the end date for each lesson based on number of kanjis and your overall target. Enjoy the feeling of completion with each lesson.

Achieve goals, don't try to "be done with it" as you will make it all the more difficult.

That makes a lot of sense...

Okay. I'm going to try that. Thanks so much! ^_^

obliviousdream Wrote:Hiragana I can pretty much look at and tell you. It's pretty slow, but I don't get them confused.

Katakana however...>_> I can read them, but it take a much longer time (Mostly because I'm also trying to figure out what the word means), and I get some mixed up (ソ and ン for example)

Practice will do the rest of this. You just have to read enough text that it becomes automatic. This will probably happen automatically as you study more. (With ソ and ン stroke direction is the key.) Most people I know are better with hiragana than katakana just because you get so much more exposure to the former.

Quote:I'm going with the AJATT method, so I basicall do nothing but listen to Japanese stuff (As much as I can, at least. My family's not big on "Japanese" and I'm still living at home, at least until I go to college)

My personal opinion is that it's vital to be able to talk with a native speaker, because then you have somebody who can correct errors you make (in pronunciation, grammar and whatever else) before they get ingrained.

Quote:But I thought Heisig said don't mix it up, and only mess with his method while you're doing it.

What he says is that you shouldn't mix his method with other study _of the kanji_. Most basic Japanese courses don't introduce kanji at all. Those that do generally only do so for very simple kanji for which Heisig's advice boils down to 'work with this as a pictograph' anyway.

He also says other things in the introduction which are just plain false (for example, that "one needs to know all of the general use kanji for them to be of any use for the literate adult") so take what he says with a pinch of salt anyway...

You don't need to know them all? Isn't that why they're there though?

When words are too similar, I sometimes search WWWJDIC for words that use each kanji. You'll get a feel for the kind of words that they're used in. Often this helps to clear things up.

In some cases, though, the meanings are so similar that the kanji almost mean the same thing.

Just think of English. There are so many words that have basically the same meaning, even though you might use all of them.

obliviousdream Wrote:You don't need to know them all? Isn't that why they're there though?

On your way to complete literacy you will need them, but it doesn't mean you need them all before you get any use out of them.

Oh. Hehe Should've thought of that...

So, using Heisig, how far do you think I have to be to read something like Bleach, without worring about all the Kanji.

I'd love to get high enough to read something like When the Higurashi Cry, but that'll be a while...>_> Apparently same thing with Lucky Star.

Anyways, thanks for replying everyone!

Tricky question. Some random facts:
* quite a lot of manga has full furigana, so you can read it without having to be able to read the kanji. But you do need to know the words!
* even if you've done the whole of Heisig vol I, you can't just work out the meaning of words by mashing together the keywords; for instance unless you learn the word you won't know that 手紙 (HAND+PAPER) means "letter".
* Heisig has made the decision that you're better off studying the kanji in an order that makes internal sense (ie where you build on the ones you've learnt already) rather than in anything approaching frequency order. So some very common kanji are right at the back of the book (random example: 気 SPIRIT is 1885.)
* The other thing you need to read manga is at least some basic grammar, say what you'd have at the end of a 'basic Japanese' kind of course.

So in summary, I think that what governs whether you can read something is your level of vocabulary and grammar, not your kanji. If you have enough vocabulary to read something which doesn't have furigana, chances are you've managed to at least learn to recognise kanji in the words you know when you see them in context, even if you haven't gone through the Heisig process. Years of seeing the things will do that much, IME.

My personal recommendation for "first manga in Japanese" is Yotsuba to!. It's by the guy who did Azumanga Daioh, it's very funny, and because it's basically about a four year old girl a lot of the dialogue is either from or to her and is thus quite simple Japanese. But you do need to learn to crawl before you try to toddle...

Oh, I've got basic grammar down (I've been studying for about two years...I still need to work on things obviously, but I do know the basics.)

I just now started to learn Kanji, though. ^_^ Thanks for the recommendation!

And, actually brought up by your points, do I actually need to know individual kanji? ...The actual combinations for words (Like fire and flower for fireworks, or table and electricity for calculator,) confuse me, and I'm not so sure learning individual kanji will actually help me. I mean, I know it's cool, but I don't know if it's particularly useful.

I wonder if I should just start learning them in compounds.

obliviousdream Wrote:And, actually brought up by your points, do I actually need to know individual kanji? ...The actual combinations for words (Like fire and flower for fireworks, or table and electricity for calculator,) confuse me, and I'm not so sure learning individual kanji will actually help me. I mean, I know it's cool, but I don't know if it's particularly useful.

I wonder if I should just start learning them in compounds.

It's not really about looking at a kanji and thinking "whoa, fire + flower = fireworks!".　It's about teaching you how to write the kanji so　you can recall them at any time.

It's hard to explain how it works after you've got the kanji down really well, but it makes learning new vocabulary much easier. I find not only am I able to write new vocab's kanji easier, but I can memorize new vocab more quickly because I have more memory associations I guess.

Oh, okay. ^_^

>_< Probably my English thinking coming back in and messing me up...I think I understand though. Thanks!

It would be analogous to trying to learn to read without learning the A-B-C's first. You could just learn to look at words and recognize them as a geschtalt, but I wouldn't recommend it as efficient.