vosmiura Wrote:Jarvik7 mentioned it may be a problem if you aim for Kanken 1. Umm... most Japanese people can't even do Kanken 1 so I think that's not something that bothers me greatly. I'll be content if I can pass Kanken 2 within a couple of years. Post RTK1 I think it's largely a matter of vocab, not of kanji themselves.

Yeah, I'm more concerned about vocab and getting this done, which is why I'm all for quick and dirty techniques. I'm not too concerned about Kanken 1.

But if you are concerned about getting the etymology correct, then go for it. I actually have used the correct etymology in one particular case-- I replaced "Piggy Bank" with "Rise Up" as the meaning for that particular radical. (I agree-- it's an awkward replacement on Heisig's part.) For the most part, though, I'm just trying to find the path of least resistance that gives me the most vivid images.

Actually, I may start looking at the etymology for a few more, because I haven't found anything I particularly like about a couple of them. (But that's my problem.)

DrJones-- you need to do what works for you. Whatever gets your retention rate up and your failed pile down is just fine. If you don't like personalization or substitution, then go for it. It works for me sometimes, so I use it.

The OP was trying to finish RTK up by May, so I suggested those techniques as a quick and dirty way to get through troublesome primitives.

As for Mr.T, I don't get distracted by his mohawk, or the gold chains. I'm more interested in his personality and voice, both of which are distinctive, and stick in my head pretty well. I also grew up when he was pretty famous, so he's an easy choice for me. But again-- I use what works for me.

Deroo's Kanji ABCs (I think that's the name) uses the same component analysis system as RTK I hear. I've never actually seen the inside of the book (Deroo should really offer a sample pdf like Heisig does), but I wonder if he similarly goes off the deep-end and starts assigning random names to kanji & primitives.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Deroo's Kanji ABCs (I think that's the name) uses the same component analysis system as RTK I hear. I've never actually seen the inside of the book (Deroo should really offer a sample pdf like Heisig does), but I wonder if he similarly goes off the deep-end and starts assigning random names to kanji & primitives.

I have seen this book at the library. It is very confusing. It is just a list of "graphemes" and it did not really have instructions (or at least clear ones) as to how to use it.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Deroo's Kanji ABCs (I think that's the name) uses the same component analysis system as RTK I hear. I've never actually seen the inside of the book (Deroo should really offer a sample pdf like Heisig does), but I wonder if he similarly goes off the deep-end and starts assigning random names to kanji & primitives.

That's actually 2 different books, but lucky for you, someone has already done some of the research:

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=687

She looked at de Roo, Henshall, and the Kanji ABCs books, and gave her opinions on them.

I actually have the Henshall book. I picked it up a few years ago when I was taking Japanese in grad school. It's useful-ish, but it's in joyo order, so the stories he creates don't really build on each other. It's great for etymological research, though. He pounds through all of the old forms and variants of each kanji. I never did use it to learn kanji, mainly because it's a lot less transparent than Heisig. It's a very good reference book, though, and the calligraphy is very nice.

He lists the principal meanings for the elements, and I can sort of understand why Heisig changed some of them-- there's some repetition. I found 4 persons, 3 bending persons, a slumped person, a fallen person, etc. Yeah, Heisig takes a lot of liberties... but it's quick n' dirty.

Maybe if you re-ordered the way Henshall lists them, it would be useful for someone doing RTK, but that would add a lot of work.

Yeah, there are other books that break up kanji into components, but I think there isn't any that takes you through it as much as Heisig. I think there's more to it than just breaking into components.

If you work with etymology that's fine but there's like a dozen different components that represent "hands" and stuff like that in the etymology, and giving them distinct keywords takes effort out of learning the many kanji that use them.

There's also cases where primitives (for example "schoolhouse") actually have several different roots but they just came to be written the same over time. Unless you're an etymology scholar, that information is quite superfluous.

Christine Tham has a page with etymology based stories. It is very interesting, but at the same time I thought it was harder to learn than with Heisig. Somehow it looked as though there were more primitives to learn, and they were much less distinct to learn than in Heisig... lose-lose situation if you ask me. But for people who would prefer that, why not.

i do 20 a day as well

Jarvik7 Wrote:My biggest complaint with RTK is how he arbitrarily changes the meanings of things. It doesn't make things easier in the short term and it makes it harder in the long term since you need to unlearn what was in RTK and then relearn the correct information.

I think you're missing the point. The book is called "Remembering the Kanji". It is a system to help you recall and write kanji at will. Whether or not the primitive meanings are "correct" make no difference.

If it helps you to remember the kanji, that's all the matters.

I doubt most Japanese people can give you an explanation to the "correct" etymology
of every kanji. Trying asking Japanese people about the history of individual kanji
and then compare it to your books. Most will probably tell you a story different from what you've read and i'm sure you'll hear lots of different stories for the same kanji.

Also, I think the fact that so many people have overcome kanji is a testament to the fact that the Heisig system works amazingly well.

The last comment I have(this goes out to everyone) is to finish RTK first before criticizing it. A lot of answers can be found in the text itself in those explanations he gives before some lessons.

chamcham Wrote:I think you're missing the point. The book is called "Remembering the Kanji". It is a system to help you recall and write kanji at will. Whether or not the primitive meanings are "correct" make no difference.

If it helps you to remember the kanji, that's all the matters.

In my case, so many of the primitive keywords(and some of the kanji keywords too) are so crazy, I can't come up with stories that suit me. I can't relate kanji to computers, or Thanks-giving, or base-ball. It's counter productive for me to do that, even. I had to rename the primitives to something that either made more sense to me or that was more accurate. Also...I had to look up most of the meanings separately because a single keyword can be very ambiguous, even if it's accurate.

I don't see why "computer" is inherently any harder to make stories out of any more than "temple" or "cow" or anything really. ("computer" makes learning "logic" pretty easy). Whether something works better for one person or another is very personal, but I don't think the choice of 'crazy' keywords is a big deal, unless you dwell on it.

Anyway, you have to learn real Japanese words & how to use them... not accurate kanji keywords. No matter how accurate a keyword you can come up with, with the exception of a few of the kanji, there's no way that a keyword can cover the breadth of the vocab associated with each kanji.

Keywords can be a big deal if it's what's making it harder to remember the kanji. I don't think there's anything wrong with changing keywords to suit you're own style. That's what Heisig did in the first place...
The problem isn't that there's only one keyword, but when the meaning isn't clear. If there's more than one definition or connotation, I don't want to make a mnemonic to essentially remember the wrong thing.

Yeah, what I meant is that I don't think the chosen keywords are inherently poor, however on a personal basis you may come up with better ones for yourself.

I made up some primitives of my own, for example I made "person"+"walkingstick" into a single primitive.

I agree ^^ Sometimes when I looked things up I found something really helpful. What comes to mind is using 斬(wheel + axe= beheading)　instead of　車　and 斤 separately for 暫 and 漸. Maybe you can see the connection there?

I'm now into Part III and slowed down a bit for a start.

Although I somehow get the impression that some things just stick better right now, than many of the Kanji in Part II did at first. Anyway - Heisigs storys tended to get on my nerves a great deal for the last 2-3 days in Part II and I came up with some stories of my own instead.

Anyway I'm now going at 30-35 Kanji per day regularly. In Part II I did 55-60 and it has grown a bit tedious. Maybe I'll speed up a bit (not much, just to 40-45) if it continues to look good.

I just try to split the lessons up into even chunks, with the maximum I will do in a day about 40. (It takes me 5mins on average for each character, so 3hrs 20mins plus 2hours reviewing is all I can fit in a day around work) I do sort of drill the cards still though, writing out the Kanji 4 or 5 times when I first make the story up. Then again twice for every time I review it. I think it helps enormously.