こんばんは、

I began taking grammar lessons from http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar, which is a known, popular source and I would like to stick with it as it is free, online, and seems like it is constantly supported. I am in the middle of working my way through RTK1 and I believe that working on some grammar is incredibly helpful. I have read that "you should learn all the RTK1 kanji first" but when this could take 6+ months—done right and quite honestly to do JUST this could mean to get burned big time, I wanted to see who in this forum has mixed a bit of grammar here and there to not only learn it but to "spice" things up during the process of learning Japanese and make RTK1 more enjoyable. I believe that most here want to be able to read, talk, chat, or write at the very least a few sentences before they learn 2000+ kanji.

Let me know what you think and ありがとうございます、

エミリオ。

I am at 600 in RTK1 and i just started learning grammar from Tae Kim, just like you. I have lot of time I can spend on learning Japanese, but if I do more than 30 kanji a day, I am going crazy.

So I do combination of RTK, watching anime and I added the grammar very recently.

I started grammar before kanji because I didn't really know I how to go about kanji learning in the very beginning. I spent about a school year doing grammar with a few kanji learned from context (tae Kim mostly) and watching lots of dramas etc. Then I spent my summer holiday learning 700 kanji. Now I'm in another kanji lul (am reviewing though) I think I'll make another big push during half term (next week) and then a final push in the Easter holidays. Then I'll have them all down in time for my first exam and before summer where I want to make a reading push.

Robik Wrote:I am at 600 in RTK1 and i just started learning grammar from Tae Kim, just like you. I have lot of time I can spend on learning Japanese, but if I do more than 30 kanji a day, I am going crazy.

So I do combination of RTK, watching anime and I added the grammar very recently.

I completely agree with your approach. Especially after I tried the "RTK1 only" approach for a while (even completing RTK1 this way).

Although this most certainly wasn't counterproductive or anything, I've found that I learned much more about Japanese by really concentrating on the grammar for a while by burrowing through my grammar book ("Japanese The Manga Way") and converting all the points I could find (both minor and major) into Anki flashcards (*1), divided into themes. Since this forced me to revisit and re-study many points when I encountered them again upon reviewing the flashcards I made, this felt like carefully sharpening a blade whenever needed over a longer period of time. Very satisfying and very effective, in my experience.

While I also use a commercial service for learning Japanese which charges a modest monthly fee, I have found that maintaining your own "reviewable notes" (as it were) adds the feeling that you are building something of your own instead of merely following the lessons someone else mapped out for you.

And as far as Kanji are concerned, whenever I encounter one that feels unfamiliar I use RTK1 to track down its approximate meaning(*2) and then add it to an Anki-deck with all of its meanings listed, plus whatever memory aide I came up with. That works just fine for me. Much better than investing enormous amounts of time in keeping all of the RTK1 kanji in my memory, while using what little study time remains for grammar, vocab and full sentences. Putting the horse behind the cart that was, I felt.

(*1. I posted a number of links to the Anki decks I made in this thread, in case you're interested: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=12251 They get upgrades with some regularity, whenever I have found something to improve or "sharpen").

(*2. Heisig's method of building on each primitive he introduces, means that if you at least recognize one of the primitives a Kanji uses, then you have a good chance of tracking it down in RTK1. Or if you encounter the Kanji in digital form, it can simply be copied to a resource like jisho.org/kanji to find both its meaning(s) and pronunciation(s). This way, you can simply build your knowledge of the Kanji as they appear. Although it helps to have at least a couple of hundred of the most often used ones in your memory, of course.)

If you have the time and energy, studying grammar only can help. I don't know why anyone would recommend waiting.

Robik Wrote:watching anime

I watch a lot of anime too! I have noticed that, thanks to the grammar, I end up understanding more and more. Words, mainly, but it is now more than a month ago.

bertoni Wrote:I don't know why anyone would recommend waiting.

This guy, http://nihongoshark.com, has an AMAZING guide I would recommend anyone to read. It is a free PDF you get when you register. Now, on this guide he says to learn ALL the kanji, first, in 97 days. Wow. THEN, he says, you start studying and doing other things because you now have mastered the kanji. His site is a popular find and, when I think many things he says on this guide is what's keeping me on track, I do not agree with just studying 3 - 4 months of just kanji.

Learning only the kanji is not the way to go. When RTK1 is a tool I deem to be essential I also think that by studying grammar and looking up other kanji you see in other places, like anime, is also beneficial. At this point I know 120+ from RTK and 10 - 20 or more from other sources.

I think that storming through RTK first is way to go if you can actually handle such pace, but I just can't. I need more variety or I get bored.

I am doing anime, because I like it in the first place, as a listening practice (to get accustomed to the sound of speech) and yes, i even learned few words. From my experience with learning English, video will be much more useful later, after you cross language 'threshold' as I am calling it.

I can't wait for adding the reading of Japanese into my learning though. I think am not at the point where it would be worthwhile, but I love reading and I am really looking to it.

Oh and thanks for the links guys.

Robik,

Concerning RTK1 I'm in a similar place as you (670 right now).

From my experience RTK is incredibly useful. 2 months ago I couldn't read most of the sentences in a deck like core2k, now I can read a great deal.

Also, working on Kanji the other way round with decks like JLPT preperation hasn't been so successful. I picked up a few Kanji here and there. But many I forget, no matter how often I repeat them.

On the other hand, if I learn them from keyword to Kanji, am able to write and repeat it I rarely forget them and can instantly give some meaning to them when I see them in context, even if I'm unsure about pronunciation yet. And it's quite easy to attribute alternate meanings to them if you already have a good grasp of them.

But like you say if you only do RTK it can burn you out and get boring at some point.
Nonetheless I think it's a good idea to make it one of the top priorities in the the beginning. I think it will really pay off once you're done with the first 2,000 and it pays off continually before that.

You say you can't wait to get into reading, have you tried graded readers? I'm using the ones my white rabbit press
http://shop.whiterabbitjapan.com/product...ed-readers

I think I learned a lot using them, the come graded from levels 1-5.

They're good stories and fun to read and you'll recognize a lot of Kanji you've learned by now.
They come with furigana if you can't read a specific kanji.

Well, I just wanted to share that in case you hadn't heard about it.
You can already read some japanese!

They're expensive, but you can find them on the web too, if you look around a little.

emeelio Wrote:but when this could take 6+ months

Well, one of the reasons to do RTK only until it's done is to make it NOT take this much time I think. Personally I think doing RTK first is definitely the way to go, but to each his own.

That free PDF guide was interesting read, emeelio. I am glad that according to it, I am on the right track (Hiragana + Katakana done, RTK + Anki + Koohii user stories in progress). I do not agree with few things, like suggestion to make your own vocab deck instead of using existing one. I'l try listening advice (japanesepod101). Funny that he does not think that anime is useful at all, only as progress measurement... oh well.

Thanks for your post, maxwell777. I will look for some free alternatives to Japanese Graded Readers, eventually, but I think I need to learn at least basic grammar and more vocab first.

I am thinking about adding Core deck and start unsuspending hiragana and katakana words. I will need to learn them sooner or later anyway and it should help me with reading too, because while i can read them, I am really slow at it.

Though I agree that RTK should stay a priority, I just want to spice things up a bit.

AlgoRhythmic Wrote:

emeelio Wrote:but when this could take 6+ months

Well, one of the reasons to do RTK only until it's done is to make it NOT take this much time I think. Personally I think doing RTK first is definitely the way to go, but to each his own.

You are right, to each his own. Not two people study equally. In my opinion, 6 months of just kanji does not make sense because our brains do not learn languages like that. Worse yet, then you have RTK2, lol. By mixing grammar the spark of excitement is alive, learning is more rewarding, and we can actually begin to talk and use the language, which is what actually we all want to do.

Robik Wrote:That free PDF guide was interesting read, emeelio. I am glad that according to it, I am on the right track (Hiragana + Katakana done, RTK + Anki + Koohii user stories in progress). I do not agree with few things, like suggestion to make your own vocab deck instead of using existing one. I'l try listening advice (japanesepod101). Funny that he does not think that anime is useful at all, only as progress measurement... oh well.

Thanks for your post, maxwell777. I will look for some free alternatives to Japanese Graded Readers, eventually, but I think I need to learn at least basic grammar and more vocab first.

I am thinking about adding Core deck and start unsuspending hiragana and katakana words. I will need to learn them sooner or later anyway and it should help me with reading too, because while i can read them, I am really slow at it.

Though I agree that RTK should stay a priority, I just want to spice things up a bit.

Can't agree with you more Robik. What I like the most about the guide was that he mentions throughout it that "we are doing something monumental" and that "we will be speaking, reading, and writing Japanese" which pretty much solidified why I am on this path.