Hello.

As I was browsing the study section of RevTK, I noticed that 栃 とち doesn't have an on'yomi. I suppose there are more kanji in that case, and I was wondering if there were a list of them somewhere, which would be really handy for learning. I'll look in RTK2 for now but maybe there is a spreadsheet floating around that I'm not aware of.

Thanks to anyone who can contribute any information about this.

All 漢字 have an 音読み; What you want is a list of 国字 which I just happen to have (I have't cross referenced these is a dictionary; but none of them should have an 音読み unless it was added later)
According to the dictionary I culled this list from kanji with a ※ aren't normally treated as 国字 and カタカナ readings are　音読み; however, I know that not all of them are, the western measurements (呎 for example) I didn't feel like hand checking each one with カタカナ to find out; I may do this some other day though.

常用
働 ドウ・はたら（く）
匁 もんめ・め
塀 ヘイ
峠 とうげ
搾 サク・しぼ（る）　　※
枠 わく
畑 はたけ・はた
込 こ（む・める）

表外字
俣 また
俤 おもかげ
俥 くるま
凧 たこ
凪 なぎ・な（ぐ）
凩 こがらし
匂 にお（い・う）
喰 く（う・らう）　　※
噸 トン
噺 はなし
叺 かます
呎 フィート
圦 いり
嬶 かか・かかあ　　※
屶 なた
弖 て　　※
怺 こら（える）
扨 さて
杢 もく
栂 つが・とが
栃 とち
柾 まさ・まさき
椙 すぎ
椛 もみじ
榊 さかき
樫 かし
杣 そま
枡 ます
梺 ふもと
椚 くぬぎ
楾 はんぞう
榁 むろ　　※
毟 むし（る）
熕 コウ・おおづつ
燵 タツ
瓧 デカグラム
瓩 キログラム
瓲 トン　　※
瓰 デシグラム
瓱 ミリグラム
瓸 ヘクトグラム
甅 センチグラム
畠 はた・はたけ
癪 シャク
硲 はざま
竍 デカリットル
竏 キロリットル
竕 デシリットル
竓 ミリリットル
竡 ヘクトリットル
竰 センチリットル
笹 ささ
簓 セン・ささら
簗 やな　　※
粁 キロメートル
粂 くめ
籾 もみ
粍 ミリメートル
糎 センチメートル
籵 デカメートル
粨 ヘクトメートル
糀 こうじ
綛 かすり・かせ
縅 おどし・おど（す）
繧 ウン
纃 かすり
纐 コウ・しぼ（り）・しぼりぞ（め）
聢 しか（と）
腺 セン・すじ
膵 スイ　　※
艝 そり
萢 やち・やつ
蓙 ござ
蚫 ホウ・あわび　　※
蛯 えび
袰 ほろ
裃 かみしも
裄 ゆき
褄 つま
襷 たすき
諚 ジョウ・おきて・おお（せ）
躾 しつけ
軈 やが（て）
轌 そり
辻 つじ
辷 すべ（る）
迚 とて・とて（も）
逧 さこ
遖 あっぱれ
鋲 ビョウ
鑓 やり
錺 かざり　　※
錵 にえ　　※
錻 ブ・ブリキ
鎹 かすがい
閊 つか（える）
雫 ダ・しずく　　※
鞆 とも
鞐 こはぜ
颪 おろし
饂 ウン
鰯 いわし
鱈 セツ・たら　　※
鮖 かじか
鮗 このしろ
鮟 アン　　※
鮴 ごり
鯏 あさり・うぐい
鯑 かずのこ
鯒 こち
鯲 どじょう
鯱 しゃち・しゃちほこ
鯰 ネン・なまず
鰰 はたはた
鱇 コウ
鱚 きす
鴫 しぎ
鳰 にお
鵆 ちどり
鵤 いかる・いかるが
鶫 つぐみ
麿 まろ

Thanks for the list! It's a start, since I'll have to check them one by one, as I'm not interested in stuff like 塀 ヘイ (>on'yomi) or 褄 つま which isn't in RTK. I'm starting to think I might not reach the dozen, so maybe those criteria aren't that helpful. Starting on going through the list and editing my post later.

[Katsuo]

In terms of the 2,136 joyo kanji, 76 characters don't have a joyo on-yomi: 貝肌埼垣畑枠棚株乞茨栃虹滝串掛扱又爪峠嵐崎込姫脇梨箱但畝塚堀据届岬芝繰卸宛皿娘坪刈漬鎌芋瀬杉蚊鶴岡駒虞鹿熊咲且潟俺匂唄尻弥釜膝肘枕柿桁裾箸謎誰鍋闇頃頬丼.

Kanjidic lists non-joyo on-yomi for 70 of those 76, the 6 exceptions being 畑枠栃峠込匂.

国字 are a subset of 漢字; it would make sense if 漢字 only referred to the ones created in China but the word has lost the literal meaning of "Characters from Han China".

I know, I was going with the more literal dictionary definition based because that's pretty much what you have to end up searching to find 漢字 without an 音読み. (that or 和製漢字)

Here's RandomQuotes parsed list (RTK1+3 kanji without any on'yomi) comprising 30 items, not bad:
*the 6 exceptions given by Katsuo are in the list, but 栃匂 were originally in the 表外字 column, and I also moved 匁 away from the 常用 column*

常用
峠 とうげ
枠 わく
畑 はたけ・はた
込 こ（む・める）
栃 とち
匂 にお（い・う）

表外字
匁 もんめ・め
俣 また
凧 たこ
凪 なぎ・な（ぐ）
喰 く（う・らう）　　※
噺 はなし
栂 つが・とが
柾 まさ・まさき
椙 すぎ
榊 さかき
樫 かし
畠 はた・はたけ
笹 ささ
粁 キロメートル
籾 もみ
粍 ミリメートル
糎 センチメートル
籵 デカメートル
粨 ヘクトメートル
躾 しつけ
辻 つじ
鋲 びょう
鑓 やり
鰯 いわし
麿 まろ

I've added hectometer to the list though it's not a RTK kanji: it blended well with the others.

栃 is a simplified version of 櫔, which was listed in the 康熙字典. So it's not really 国字 or 和製漢字, and it does have an (unused) 音読 of レイ.

萬 gets reduce to 万 in 勵=励ます, 牡蠣＝牡蛎, 砺＝礪,

栃木 does happen to have a unique stroke order and direction because outside of 栃木県 no one was writing it until it got put into the new Joyo list, so the locals starting writing it like the CHinese do With the 厂written from the top right, instead of the top left in 励ます.

(it is in the new joyo list, right? )

kapalama Wrote:(it is in the new joyo list, right? )

Yes, they made sure to add all the kanji for the prefecture names.

RTK2 gives the following list of "Characters with No Chinese Readings" in Chapter 4. For reference I've added the RTK1 keyword:


RTK1 RTK2 Kanji Keyword
25 580 昌 prosperous
27 581 旭 rising sun
32 582 亘 span
53 583 只 only
54 584 貝 shellfish
60 585 頁 page
66 586 肌 texture
110 587 汐 eventide
153 588 埼 cape
154 589 垣 hedge
166 589.1畑 farm
176 590 鯉 carp
199 591 柏 oak
200 591.1枠 frame
201 592 梢 treetops
202 593 棚 shelf
203 594 杏 apricot
222 595 株 stocks
242 596 荻 reed
279 596.1辻 crossing
410 597 幌 canopy
437 598 瞳 pupil
444 599 匕 spoon
462 600 乞 beg
472 601 茨 briar
514 602 栃 horse chestnut
520 603 虹 rainbow
537 604 滝 waterfall
578 605 曰 sayeth
603 606 串 shish kebab
674 607 掛 hang
690 608 扱 handle
696 609 又 or again
727 610 爪 claw
773 610.1峠 mountain peak
777 611 嵐 storm
778 612 崎 promontory
780 612.1込 crowded
849 613 姫 princess
870 614 脇 armpit
939 615 笠 bamboo hat
940 616 笹 bamboo grass
942 617 箱 box
953 618 但 however
1017 619 畝 furrow
1027 620 匁 monme
1031 621 瓦 tile
1039 622 塚 hillock
1062 623 堀 ditch
1064 624 据 set
1110 625 届 deliver
1115 626 岬 headland
1190 627 廿 twenty
1216 628 芝 turf
1263 629 渚 strand
1323 630 窪 depression
1369 631 繰 winding
1397 632 卸 wholesale
1427 633 酉 sign of the bird
1447 634 皿 dish
1471 635 娘 daughter
1486 636 坪 two-mat area
1488 637 刈 reap
1498 638 梓 catalpa
1517 639 菱 diamond
1519 640 亥 sign of the hog
1545 641 漬 pickling
1569 642 椿 camelia
1609 643 栗 chestnut
1614 644 楠 camphor tree
1655 645 芋 potato
1666 646 瀬 rapids
1713 647 杉 cedar
1716 648 彦 lad
1728 649 蚊 mosquito
1838 650 蒲 bullrush
1943 651 鶴 crane
1945 652 蔦 vine
1946 653 鳩 pigeon
1950 654 媛 beautiful woman
1961 655 岡 Mount
1979 656 駒 pony
1995 657 虞 uneasiness
2003 658 熊 bear
2006 659 寅 sign of the tiger
2018 660 咲 blossom
2034 661 且 moreover
2039 662 潟 lagoon
2040 663 丑 sign of the cow
2041 664 卯 sign of the hare
2042 665 巳 sign of the snake

Note the preface to the chapter - non-jouyou readings are ignored if the kanji itself is jouyou or if Heisig deems them "not useful enough to learn at this stage". Some of those kanji do have on'yomi, including ones suggested by signal primitives. Off the top of my head:

旭日【きょくじつ】
瞳孔【どうこう】
末梢【まっしょう】

I consider the latter two to be relatively common. I actually didn't even realize 梢 had a kun'yomi.

Not just some, most of the kanji in that list have onyomi.
蚊虻走牛　ぶんぼうそうぎゅう
頁岩　けつがん
松柏　しょうはく
芝蘭　しらん
建坪率　けんぺいりつ
虞犯　ぐはん
爪牙　そうが
野鶴　やかく
etc.
However many of these readings you will not encounter in modern texts (lot's of it come from 漢文 etc). The only characters without onyomi are 国字 like 込 畑 etc which some people have listed above. In some cases even 国字 have onyomi, like 塀

With few exceptions (畑, 辻, 働く) these seem to be 異体字 or Japanese specific simplifications, which means they have a reading, even if it is not used much.

The sexagenary kanji are read in on-yomi, albeit As it turns out much less so than I thought): 丁未の乱, 戊辰戦争.

The one that jumps out though is 蒲団. That's a very common.

Heisig, heisig.

Vempele Wrote:Note the preface to the chapter - non-jouyou readings are ignored if the kanji itself is jouyou or if Heisig deems them "not useful enough to learn at this stage". Some of those kanji do have on'yomi, including ones suggested by signal primitives. Off the top of my head:

Here's what Heisig actually says about the kanji presented in Chapter Four:

"In the case of those [kanji] that belong to the general-use kanji, this means that no reading has been assigned to them in the official list, though many of them do have traditional readings. In the case of those that fall outside the general-use list, it means that none of their readings is useful enough to bear learning at this stage."

Here's my question: which ones of the 86 kanji presented in Chapter Four are not general-use kanji? I thought they all were.

He's using the word "general use" to mean 常用 Joyo Kanji, (亘, 萩,峠,辻, etc at least are Place and People name Kanji, not in strictly in the Joyo List, IIRC. And the tree names are used, but more in place/people names too.)**

And 蔦 is one of those kanji that average Japanese people can't seem to write in their heads. "艹に 鳥" gets ”はてな, はてな” thought bubbles swirling around their heads. If these see it, they can always read it, but it's rare enough that it’s very much ピンと来ない*** for anyone out in the world. In that sense, like most name Kanji.

** It's kinds funny how much we worry about whether a Kanji is Joyo or not, because it just does not matter to a Japanese person at all. No one in Japan pays attention to what's on the list. That conversation always goes Me: "is that Joyo Kanji?" J-person: "Who cares?" Me: "But, but, how do I know what to study?" But we do need such a list as foreign learners.

*** Wow does EDICT strike out on the meaning of ピンと来ない.

Really if the lust meant anything, JLPT 1 would only have Joyo and Jinmei on it.

kapalama Wrote:It's kinds funny how much we worry about whether a Kanji is Joyo or not, because it just does not matter to a Japanese person at all. No one in Japan pays attention to what's on the list.

Except maybe the Japanese Ministry of Education which developed the list of Jouyou kanji, or Japanese schools which are required to teach a prescribed set of kanji from the Jouyou list during each year of elementary school.

[Katsuo]

john555 Wrote:Here's my question: which ones of the 86 kanji presented in Chapter Four are not general-use kanji? I thought they all were.

Put this spreadsheet in RTK2 order and it should be clear.

john555 Wrote:

kapalama Wrote:It's kinds funny how much we worry about whether a Kanji is Joyo or not, because it just does not matter to a Japanese person at all. No one in Japan pays attention to what's on the list.

Except maybe the Japanese Ministry of Education which developed the list of Jouyou kanji, or Japanese schools which are required to teach a prescribed set of kanji from the Jouyou list during each year of elementary school.

Yeah, but...

Every College Entrance exam tries to outdo that list by testing on Kanji on the list, so anyone going to college has no hard target to shoot for. Newspapers ignore the list and have to because there are so many name Kanji.

Don't get me wrong. I'm glad they have centered the education on a core set as an adult learner; but there are many kanji encountered on a daily basis that are not Joyo, or RTK, that appear in ads for X.

I guess if the Joyo included a set of standardized abbreviation (險 always becomes 険, etc) like the Asahi Characters...

Bascially this

Quote:Released in February 2000, the JIS X 0213-2000 character set was presented as a solution to the problems of the previous character set, as the Shift JIS encoding was expanded to re-include traditional characters such as 鷗, 瀆, and 潑. In December of the same year, the Japanese Language Council compiled a list of kanji not included on the jōyō kanji list, and announced certain standards that would be used for all printed script. The creation of this list made it clear that extended shinjitai would not be used for kanji other than jōyō kanji, leading to an increased move towards reducing the use of extended shinjitai.

is a bad idea, probably drive more by political desire to not be Mainland China than as a useful pedagogical move.

(Man, I sound like I am shaking my fist at Japanese. I'm not meaning to. Dang Japanese people, can't your language be the way I want it to be?)

tl;dr I love the Asahi Characters/Extended Shinjitai/Mainland Chinese 'Kanji'