Hello, I've recently finished RTK1 about 5 days ago and I've started skimming through RTK2. As I've been reading through the first two chapters I've found it difficult to understand how this book works. In the first chapter I understand that knowing which Kana came from which Kanji is supposed to help you understand the readings, that was a simple chapter. But on chapter 2 things get a little confusing for me. I understand how signal primitives work completely. What I don't understand though is how knowing the signal primitive help remember the On reading itself. I also don't understand the function of the compounds provided in each frame. I did some skimming at the back at page 315 of the 4th edition of the book and noticed Heisig states that at the end of this book we should know at least 2,000 words. From that I am guessing that I should be learning these vocabulary words. Am I supposed to use these with the signal primitives somehow? And why are compounds provided in the first chapter if i should be using the kana to learn the readings for these characters? I am aware there were some older topics on this subject, but none of them seemed to fully answer my questions or provide me a full picture of how this book works. I've also noticed that those topics were pretty old so I'm hoping by now that there might be some different answers.

Thank you!

basssp15 Wrote:Hello, I've recently finished RTK1 about 5 days ago and I've started skimming through RTK2. As I've been reading through the first two chapters I've found it difficult to understand how this book works. In the first chapter I understand that knowing which Kana came from which Kanji is supposed to help you understand the readings, that was a simple chapter. But on chapter 2 things get a little confusing for me. I understand how signal primitives work completely. What I don't understand though is how knowing the signal primitive help remember the On reading itself.

I haven't done RTK2 but I have the book, and as I understood the signal primitives more or less are the on'yomi (the value of signal primitives is to be associated with a unique Chinese reading). Allow me to quote the introduction "To this end I have introduced what are called "signal primitives". By this I mean primitive elements within the written form which signal a particular Chinese reading." (p4). And since you've learned how to decipher kanji/primitives with RTK1, you should instantly associate those primitives with the given sound.

He then explains the exceptions and the content of every chapter. In chapter one he explains kana come from certain kanji, so by learning where they come from you learn how the kanji is pronounced, since they are pronounced like the kana. I guess you should re-read all that.

EratiK Wrote:He then explains the exceptions and the content of every chapter. In chapter one he explains kana come from certain kanji, so by learning where they come from you learn how the kanji is pronounced, since they are pronounced like the kana.

Yes I understand this, for example with the kanji :二　I can tell its pronounced like the katakana: ニ due to its appearance, I understand this.

EratiK Wrote:And since you've learned how to decipher kanji/primitives with RTK1, you should instantly associate those primitives with the given sound.

I don't get what you mean by this. How does knowing that this kanji:中　means "in" help me remember the vague sound of "ちゅう"?

Thank you

It's the shape, not the meaning. Knowing 中 is pronounced ちゅう helps you remember 仲 沖 忠 虫 are also pronounced ちゅう (the last one is apparently unrelated but since it looks similar enough...).

Vemepele Wrote:It's the shape, not the meaning. Knowing 中 is pronounced ちゅう helps you remember 仲 沖 忠 虫 are also pronounced ちゅう (the last one is apparently unrelated but since it looks similar enough...).

Yes, I understand this but, how does this book expect me to remember that one of 中's readings is ちゅう to begin with. I mean even if know that 仲 沖 忠 虫 share the same reading that doesn't help me remember the reading itself. And I'm going through the pure groups chapter looking at the different sounds for each group we have せん for symbols like 泉、線、and 腺 and そう for 荘、壮、and 装. I don't understand how to associate these sounds with the symbols, there are so many in this chapter alone. I'm starting to think that there's something about kanji I'm supposed to know before opening this book or that I'm missing something from the book itself.

Thank you

basssp15 Wrote:

Vemepele Wrote:It's the shape, not the meaning. Knowing 中 is pronounced ちゅう helps you remember 仲 沖 忠 虫 are also pronounced ちゅう (the last one is apparently unrelated but since it looks similar enough...).

Yes, I understand this but, how does this book expect me to remember that one of 中's readings is ちゅう to begin with. I mean even if know that 仲 沖 忠 虫 share the same reading that doesn't help me remember the reading itself. And I'm going through the pure groups chapter looking at the different sounds for each group we have せん for symbols like 泉、線、and 腺 and そう for 荘、壮、and 装. I don't understand how to associate these sounds with the symbols, there are so many in this chapter alone. I'm starting to think that there's something about kanji I'm supposed to know before opening this book or that I'm missing something from the book itself.

Thank you

THAT is the reader's problem. It's up to the reader to somehow remember that "中" is a signal primitive giving the sound "choo" (as in "choo choo train"?!).

The point is you have to use mnemonics again, in order to learn the sounds of the signal primitives.

I gave up doing RTK2 and decided to focus on studying the vocabulary (mostly compounds) in my reading passages, and I find that in learning compounds I'm naturally absorbing some of the readings of these signal primitives.

Maybe after I accumulate a ton of vocabulary it might be useful to systematize my knowledge by going through RTK2, but not at this stage.

john555 Wrote:THAT is the reader's problem. It's up to the reader to somehow remember that "中" is a signal primitive giving the sound "choo" (as in "choo choo train"?!).

The point is you have to use mnemonics again, in order to learn the sounds of the signal primitives.

Well when it comes to On readings Heisig doesn't breath a word about using mnemonics for the On readings only when it comes to Kun readings does he mention this. I've seen other people on here claim this is what we are supposed to do, but due to the fact he doesn't mention this I feel this is not what he intended.

john555 Wrote:decided to focus on studying the vocabulary (mostly compounds) in my reading passages, and I find that in learning compounds I'm naturally absorbing some of the readings of these signal primitives.

That is actually what I'm starting to think he wants us to do. I believe he wants us to learn the compounds in order to to absorb the readings. Which is why when he tells us to review to go from compound to reading and meaning. I guess this is why he tells us at the end that we should have learned 2000 words at this point. But what I don't understand now is how will this help me read. If I pick up a book how will know which reading to use for a particular character.

Thank you

basssp15 Wrote:

john555 Wrote:THAT is the reader's problem. It's up to the reader to somehow remember that "中" is a signal primitive giving the sound "choo" (as in "choo choo train"?!).

The point is you have to use mnemonics again, in order to learn the sounds of the signal primitives.

Well when it comes to On readings Heisig doesn't breath a word about using mnemonics for the On readings only when it comes to Kun readings does he mention this. I've seen other people on here claim this is what we are supposed to do, but due to the fact he doesn't mention this I feel this is not what he intended.

john555 Wrote:decided to focus on studying the vocabulary (mostly compounds) in my reading passages, and I find that in learning compounds I'm naturally absorbing some of the readings of these signal primitives.

That is actually what I'm starting to think he wants us to do. I believe he wants us to learn the compounds in order to to absorb the readings. Which is why when he tells us to review to go from compound to reading and meaning. I guess this is why he tells us at the end that we should have learned 2000 words at this point. But what I don't understand now is how will this help me read. If I pick up a book how will know which reading to use for a particular character.

Thank you

What I'm doing is working my way through a book which contains different reading passages divided into elementary, intermediate and advanced level. I'm about halfway through the intermediate.

At the beginning of each reading passage there is a list of new vocabulary intended for that passage: kanji, romaji transcription, and meaning in English.

What I do is I study each word (single kanji or kanji compound) and I get the pronunciation of the kanji from the romaji transcription. I input the new words into an Access database so I can run queries on the various kanji and readings.

Now there often are words in the passage I don't know and that aren't in the vocabulary list, so I look those up in a dictionary to get the reading and meaning.

At this stage I'm not even checking to see if the compounds I'm learning are in RTK2. My goal is simply to finish the entire reader in 2015. If I succeed I'll have a massive vocabulary. Then I'll take a look at RTK2.

Is there anyone on here that has completed this book that can tell me how they went about going through this? I'm still a little confused.

Thank you

Maybe this past thread can help you.
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=10613

You know what the problem with RTK2 is? Other than a few useful chapters (like "one time only readings") you can get pretty much everything by taking one of those books (e.g., Essential Kanji by O'Neill) that describe each of the jouyou kanji and looking in the phonetic index and you can see for yourself which kanji share the same ON reading.

So you look in index under "CHU" and you see a list of all the jouyou kanji pronounced "CHU".

You could actually also get the "one time only readings" by skimming the index.

On a scale of one to ten, if RTK1 is a 10, RTK2 is probably 1.0.

john555 Wrote:You know what the problem with RTK2 is? Other than a few useful chapters (like "one time only readings") you can get pretty much everything by taking one of those books (e.g., Essential Kanji by O'Neill) that describe each of the jouyou kanji and looking in the phonetic index and you can see for yourself which kanji share the same ON reading.
So you look in index under "CHU" and you see a list of all the jouyou kanji pronounced "CHU".
You could actually also get the "one time only readings" by skimming the index.
On a scale of one to ten, if RTK1 is a 10, RTK2 is probably 1.0.

>the problem with RTK2 is that you can replicate it yourself
Okay. Even if the value of Heisig's attempt at systematizing the readings is questionable, there is no reason to straight out dismiss his effort, which is logical in its own way. Not sure why you think those kind of posts are any helpful here to bass and his situation.

I used RTK2 a long time ago. Today, there might be better options, but I have no experience with them, so I won't comment on that. I found that I could remember the signal on-yomi fairly easily through rote memorization along with a bit of reading practice. An Anki should be fine, in my opinion. More practice, especially with interesting texts, makes for better recall. I think you should give it a try, and see how it goes. If it's not working for you, try something else. You also might want to research some other methods now, if RTK2 doesn't sound like something you'd tolerate well.

The general belief seems to be that RTK2 is far less useful and less well though-out than RTK 1. Heisig does basically ask you to just brute force memorize a huge amount of out of context information, just using the signal primitives to help you out sometimes. While I have seen people here who used it, most people seem to go from RTK1 to just learning actual Japanese.

EratiK Wrote:Maybe this past thread can help you.
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=10613

Hmm I've actually read this one before but thank you.

bertoni Wrote:I found that I could remember the signal on-yomi fairly easily through rote memorization along with a bit of reading practice. An Anki should be fine, in my opinion. More practice, especially with interesting texts, makes for better recall. I think you should give it a try, and see how it goes. If it's not working for you, try something else. You also might want to research some other methods now, if RTK2 doesn't sound like something you'd tolerate well.

Yes I've started to figure out this would be this best way to go about. Thank you

yudantaiteki Wrote:Heisig does basically ask you to just brute force memorize a huge amount of out of context information, just using the signal primitives to help you out sometimes.

Yes, with the exception of one page I recently found it wasn't clear that he wanted this, but I have a better understanding of this book now.

Thank you!

I have another question.

Should I be learning the compounds that are in each frame?

Thank you

Personally, I did. It can be difficult to remember the reading of the kanji not containing the signal primitive in question, but memorizing it will pay off when you encounter the kanji again in its own frame. Challenging yourself in this way will also prepare you for the mixed groups and chapters not containing signal primitives.

TurtleBear Wrote:Personally, I did. It can be difficult to remember the reading of the kanji not containing the signal primitive in question, but memorizing it will pay off when you encounter the kanji again in its own frame. Challenging yourself in this way will also prepare you for the mixed groups and chapters not containing signal primitives.

Ah, alright.

Thank you

What I ended up doing for RTK2 was to find the RTK2 deck on anki, and go through that to learn the onyomis. I cleaned it up a bit and changed the clour scheme to suit myself though. By the time I was doing RTK2, I'd already been studying Japanese for more than 10 years, so I had a reasonable amount of vocab to connect with the compounds and onyomis.

I found that like the primitives in RTK1, the signal primitives in RTK2 became a bit like an alphabet, and that made it easier to learn the onyomis.

My advice for anyone looking to go through RTK2 would be to look up that deck (or my cleaned up a bit version which I'll get round to posting on of these days) and create a new field on the cards, and add sentences for the coumpounds too. FOr me, I found sentences for context makes learning vocab much easier. I didn't add sentences for mine, but going through CORE I realised that for me, it mae things a lot easier.

I didn't use RTK2 to leanr the kunyomis, but at some point I'll probably think about doing that too.

ktcgx Wrote:What I ended up doing for RTK2 was to find the RTK2 deck on anki, and go through that to learn the onyomis. I cleaned it up a bit and changed the clour scheme to suit myself though.

I am actually using Anki myself at the moment, I just reached chapter 5 today.