My grammar and vocab are decent, and can hear teaching stuff from iKnow, etc.....but i'm still having a tough time listening to native speakers....even when they are speaking beginner stuff.

Sometimes it seems like words/syllables are slurred or missing.

For example, here is a beginner's series: Erin's Challenge.
https://www.erin.ne.jp/en/lesson02/basic/script.html

If you go to the 3rd line, instead of hearing "ここが".....to me it just sounds like "Ko-Ga" (missing a Ko).

Or if you go to the "放課後は６時まで開いてるから" line....I cannot hear the "De" in "まで"...just the "ま" and then 開いてる.


Even when I slow it down, it seems slurred/missing.
But native speakers can hear all the syllables.

Is there some rule i'm missing? Any one else have this problem and how you tackled it?

Thanks

These are pretty hard listening passages for beginners... they're really said at a very fast speed. I think the ここが might be hard to hear for English speakers because we're not used to vowel sounds being almost exactly the same twice in a row, and the 'k' that comes in to distinguish the two is pretty soft here. If it helps, you're probably hearing the second こ more prominently than the first.

まで is tough too. One thing is that the Japanese don't release as much air when they make a 't' or 'd' sound, since their tongue is closer to the back of their teeth, so you don't hear that puff of air you would hear with an English speaker. And the vowel in this particularly clip is really very short. We don't like to end words with that vowel sound in English (hence why we change Japanese words like karaoke and sake to end with 'i' instead of 'e'), so it can be difficult. When I first started learning Japanese, I had problems with a few consonants, but the only vowel I found difficult was え.

I wouldn't worry about it though, this stuff just takes a lot of time. Just keep listening very closely, and you won't get it every time, but eventually you'll be able to get it 98%+ of the time.

[RawToast]

As Tzadeck states, Karin's challenge is hard for beginners. Since you're using iKnow I'd keep trying the iKnow sentences for now. If you have an Android/iOS phone the app has a listening practice function not found on the website. Likewise, the dictation tests are pretty good for listening practice.

Quote:I think the ここが might be hard to hear for English speakers because we're not used to vowel sounds being almost exactly the same twice in a row, and the 'k' that comes in to distinguish the two is pretty soft here.

I found it harder to pronounce words like this for the same reason. We make those sounds in English, but don't have the repetition found in Japanese. I remember finding たかくなかった　and　たかかった especially difficult.

If you want something similar to Erin's challenge then the skits from "Lets learn Japanese" with Yan-san are easier.

RawToast Wrote:I found it harder to pronounce words like this for the same reason. We make those sounds in English, but don't have the repetition found in Japanese. I remember finding たかくなかった　and　たかかった especially difficult.

Haha, what I still flub up is variations on あたたかい. "It was warm" has to be the toughest thing to say in Japanese: あたたかかった. Even the abbreviated あったかかった is no picnic.

hkoros Wrote:If you go to the 3rd line, instead of hearing "ここが".....to me it just sounds like "Ko-Ga" (missing a Ko).

Or if you go to the "放課後は６時まで開いてるから" line....I cannot hear the "De" in "まで"...just the "ま" and then 開いてる.

In the first case it sounds like the first こ has been clipped off the recording - it's clearer in the other examples though noticeably de-emphasised. I guess it's possible that dropping it altogether could be a colloquial contraction.

In the second example it sounds to me like the で is getting colloquially squished into an ん or something. It's much clearer in the 一人3冊まで line. Heh, just discovered that Erin's Challenge doesn't let you copy and paste. And doesn't work with Rikai

I browsed around the Erin's Challenge website way back when I was first starting out. There was a line the teacher said that was quite spectacularly difficult (and would be even now, 2 years later).

I haven't read the replies.

hkoros,

1. native speakers don't hear everything, either - they KNOW/guess what is supposed to be there.
If you don't believe me, try to make a transcript of a natural/fast dialogue in your native language.
2. you probably started learning without paying enough attention to pronunciation
http://users.bestweb.net/~siom/martian_m...c346179154
3. learn about colloquial contractions

I don't hear the こ or the で either.

I've listened to so much Japanese audio, that I personally experienced that I can't and likely won't be able to comprehend individual syllables all the time. However, what I have discovered is that I can hear words, even in the roughest of kansai dialects.

So even if you can't hear the syllables, if you listen to enough Japanese, it isn't a loss since what you'll eventually be able to pick out are the words that mush the syllables together, but really only if you already know the vocabulary. And in that understanding, you'll be able to "know" the syllables since you know and can hear the word that uses them.

That aside, it takes a long time. At least it did for me. I even think that native speakers can take a certain twist and liberty on words to shorten them. For example: "anata" can become "anta", "watashi" seems to become "washi", "hisashiburi desu" seems to become "shiburi" or "buriburi", just to name a few. And it just takes a alot of time to exposure to pick some of this stuff up and comprehend it.

My recommendation is that if you're having difficulty understanding some of the spoken language is to listen to a lot of rough kansai. As absurd as it may sound, listening to 10,000 consistent hours of rough kansai should 1. solve your problem, and 2. make you go insane.

I have to agree with anotherjohn that the line got clipped at the front. It sounds right in the movie, but in the script it sounds like 'おこ’ instead of 'ここ’.

The まで sounds to me like まね. The 'd' sound is sound is so softened that it doesn't sound like a 'd' sound. Maybe it does to natives, or maybe it's just that で is so thoroughly expected there that it doesn't really matter if the sound is clear. (Once you go as far as 六時ま　the next mora can hardly be anything else.)

I had a lot of these problems too (still do to some extent), but this is one of the things I like about Erin's challenge is that the dialogue is very natural. I went through all of Erin's challenge (except the "Let's Try" bits... I'm not really interested in listening to a lot of gaijin speaking Japanese), a lot of hukumusume, and some other things here and there using some of the L-R techniques. (If you don't know about L-R, go up a few posts and check out buonaparte's link.)

SomeCallMeChris Wrote:I have to agree with anotherjohn that the line got clipped at the front.

I agree, by the way. If you listen to the whole audio the ここ is audible though.

thanks for the replies...this helps explain a lot.

The funny thing is, I let some native speakers listen to the koko....and some swear they hear both syllables in both cases. lol.
Maybe the word is just instilled in their brain, lol.

The first one is definitely hard to catch. I wouldn't read too much into those examples if you don't have big problems in general. Just keep practising, including working on your own accent, e.g. shadowing.

One thing regarding K sounds is that they're quite a bit "lighter" than the English equivalent [1]. If you do them English style, it doesn't just sound 訛ってる, but it's also a physical challenge, as in the examples mentioned by others (あたたかかった). I remember have similar challenges getting し to flow smoothly, e.g. in ししとう. If you can learn the accent yourself, I think you'll have a much easier time catching it.

[1]

Wiki Wrote:Voiceless stops /p, t, k/ are slightly aspirated: less aspirated than English stops, but more so than Spanish.

On a related note, one thing that used to drive me crazy is the pronunciation of the ひ in 久しぶり. At first, I couldn't notice a ひ at all, but all my Japanese friends insisted it was there. Later, I finally realized that the way it's pronounced in 久しぶり is nothing like how it's pronounced in a word like 人. I like to compare it to the h in "historical", which is pronounced in a similarly abbreviated way. Only when I pointed out the difference in pronunciation did my Japanese friends notice how the ひ is "not there" in 久しぶり like how the h is "not there" in "historical".

vileru Wrote:On a related note, one thing that used to drive me crazy is the pronunciation of the ひ in 久しぶり. At first, I couldn't notice a ひ at all, but all my Japanese friends insisted it was there. Later, I finally realized that the way it's pronounced in 久しぶり is nothing like how it's pronounced in a word like 人. I like to compare it to the h in "historical", which is pronounced in a similarly abbreviated way. Only when I pointed out the difference in pronunciation did my Japanese friends notice how the ひ is "not there" in 久しぶり like how the h is "not there" in "historical".

From what I've noticed there seems to be more shortened and less pronounced forms of certain words when it comes to using them casually, and that in the more proper and formal the context, the more lengthy and well-pronounced the spoken Japanese seems to be.

vileru Wrote:On a related note, one thing that used to drive me crazy is the pronunciation of the ひ in 久しぶり. At first, I couldn't notice a ひ at all, but all my Japanese friends insisted it was there. Later, I finally realized that the way it's pronounced in 久しぶり is nothing like how it's pronounced in a word like 人. I like to compare it to the h in "historical", which is pronounced in a similarly abbreviated way. Only when I pointed out the difference in pronunciation did my Japanese friends notice how the ひ is "not there" in 久しぶり like how the h is "not there" in "historical".

Something somewhat similar to this that bothered me for a while is my teacher insisting that in 食べますね (and similar phrases ending in すね), the 'u' in す is voiced, just as how you can clearly hear it in 食べますよ. Indeed, by voicing rules it should be voiced in 食べますね, but it always sounded to me like it was devoiced. This was never resolved in my mind, I just stopped thinking about it, haha.

I never found the ひ+s devoicing weird at all though, haha. It's just quick!

Tzadeck Wrote:

vileru Wrote:On a related note, one thing that used to drive me crazy is the pronunciation of the ひ in 久しぶり. At first, I couldn't notice a ひ at all, but all my Japanese friends insisted it was there. Later, I finally realized that the way it's pronounced in 久しぶり is nothing like how it's pronounced in a word like 人. I like to compare it to the h in "historical", which is pronounced in a similarly abbreviated way. Only when I pointed out the difference in pronunciation did my Japanese friends notice how the ひ is "not there" in 久しぶり like how the h is "not there" in "historical".

Something somewhat similar to this that bothered me for a while is my teacher insisting that in 食べますね (and similar phrases ending in すね), the 'u' in す is voiced, just as how you can clearly hear it in 食べますよ. Indeed, by voicing rules it should be voiced in 食べますね, but it always sounded to me like it was devoiced. This was never resolved in my mind, I just stopped thinking about it, haha.

I hear the ますね sound a lot when watching Japanese media. And all the time when a Japanese person is speaking naturally it sounds like "Mossね."

However, I hear the syllables in words pronounced as they as they should be only when they're being sung at a slower speed during singing competitions and singing shows.

[RawToast]

TsugiAshi Wrote:Something somewhat similar to this that bothered me for a while is my teacher insisting that in 食べますね (and similar phrases ending in すね), the 'u' in す is voiced, just as how you can clearly hear it in 食べますよ. Indeed, by voicing rules it should be voiced in 食べますね, but it always sounded to me like it was devoiced.

I can't hear the u sound either, I find ますね　/ ですね is similar to words like やすかった where the 'u' sound is dropped (or is very fast/quiet). I always considered it to be a common slur.

RawToast Wrote:

TsugiAshi Wrote:Something somewhat similar to this that bothered me for a while is my teacher insisting that in 食べますね (and similar phrases ending in すね), the 'u' in す is voiced, just as how you can clearly hear it in 食べますよ. Indeed, by voicing rules it should be voiced in 食べますね, but it always sounded to me like it was devoiced.

I can't hear the u sound either, I find ますね　/ ですね is similar to words like やすかった where the 'u' sound is dropped (or is very fast/quiet). I always considered it to be a common slur.

It's sort of bad when starting out with learning Japanese. At least for me, I first learned the kana and basic pronunciation and thought that I mastered the art of the spoken word, only to realize that I spoke like a sloth because at that point I didn't have any real exposure to native Japanese audio and how the language sounded when spoken naturally.

Fast forward through developing some listening comprehension and I became better acquainted with the more minute details of the Japanese spoken word.

すき "Liking" and たすけて "Help!" seem to be the same as what we were talking about. Although when trying to yell for help in Japanese I can understand why it would be a little faster than trying to repeatedly yell "Toss-soo-kay-tay!"

I guess there's a rule for "leaping over" or not fully emphasizing most of the U sound when the sound is in between certain syllables.

[RawToast]

AFIAK すき "Liking" and 大好き　can be pronounced either way, without the 'u' seems to be more common. I am sure it is covered in a JPod101 podcast. Obviously this is from memory, so I am probably wrong, but I am sure the native in the podcast said it was down to personal preference over dialect.

I'll must point my tutor to this thread next time I have a lesson over Skype.

Quote:I guess there's a rule for "leaping over" or not fully emphasizing most of the U sound when the sound is in between certain syllables.

That's what I've always thought to be the case. Anway, back to watching builds...

RawToast Wrote:.

Quote:I guess there's a rule for "leaping over" or not fully emphasizing most of the U sound when the sound is in between certain syllables.

That's what I've always thought to be the case. Anway, back to watching builds...

The rule is that a "u" or "i" vowel between two unvoiced consonants becomes "whispered" (or whatever term you'd like to use), and a -u at the end of a sentence also goes away. This applies most strongly to the Tokyo dialect. In ひさしぶり, for instance, the first "i" is elided because it's between two unvoiced consonants. But the second and third ones are fully pronounced, as is the "u".

I forgot to mention another technique I've used. I totally made this up on the fly and it has no basis other than my own success, which in total is unremarkable, but I still think this helped.

Often it seems like the Japanese are saying something totally other than what is written - vowels are easy enough, but because consonants don't line up exactly on the same audible boundaries, depending on your local native language accent you may hear them as a different consonant. (There's some linguistics terminology about this if you want to google phonemes and morphemes, but basically, there might be a range of sound - maybe 3 or 4 sounds in the international phonetic alphabet - that are all identified by natives as the same consonant. Especially for sounds not in your own native language, you can mishear them.)

So, the problem then is that you listen to a bit of audio and the script says, say, かがやか but you could swear that they are saying かだらか. I would just listen to that bit of audio multiple times, reminding myself that it was indeed 'かがやか', and after a few repeats it might suddenly -sound- like かがやか. (Not always - after a dozen repeats if it doesn't 'click' I just move on with what I was actually studying.)

Anyway, I think thanks to this 'ear-training' practice my number of misheard mora has greatly decreased. (As proven - to myself anyway - by the fact that I can easily look up a word in a dictionary when I hear an unknown word in a TV show. In my early or even 'middle' studies, this was practically impossible for me due to mishearing mora used in the unknown words, but at this point it's simple enough.

(Well, simple enough in standard accents... still can't really look up unknown words spoken by a yakuza boss or okinawan grandfather.)

yudantaiteki Wrote:

RawToast Wrote:.

Quote:I guess there's a rule for "leaping over" or not fully emphasizing most of the U sound when the sound is in between certain syllables.

That's what I've always thought to be the case. Anway, back to watching builds...

The rule is that a "u" or "i" vowel between two unvoiced consonants becomes "whispered" (or whatever term you'd like to use), and a -u at the end of a sentence also goes away. This applies most strongly to the Tokyo dialect. In ひさしぶり, for instance, the first "i" is elided because it's between two unvoiced consonants. But the second and third ones are fully pronounced, as is the "u".

The only other thing you need to know is that the unvoiced consonants, in romaji form, are k t p h and s. (Also, I learned that 'i' is also devoiced at the end of words when it's preceded by a voiceless consonant, which I think is usually true. Hence why 'one' is often pronounced 'ich(i)' instead of 'ichi.'). There are exceptions to this when a mora is accented.

This is important to know for pronunciation. A lot of beginners would pronounce 食べますよ in a way that sounds to native speakers like 食べましょう, because people hear the devoiced 'u' often and then just add a よ without realizing that they need to voice the 'u' fully. Because, of course, 'y' is a voiced consonant. Likewise, if you don't devoice you sound really strange. I've heard millions of awkward よろしくお願いします's without devoicing.

That's what makes the そうですね or 食べますね thing strange to me--the す should be voiced because 'n' is a voiced consonant, but to my ears it sounds like most people don't voice the 'u', and when I speak I don't voice the 'u'.

I agree, for me su + n (consonant "n") loses the "u" (mostly) as well. It happens for other words like 素直 or 話すの as well. It seems to me like there's more of a "u" there than with 食べますか, but I'm not a native.