yudantaiteki Wrote:For me, "I'm going to" goes to "Imunna" (when it means "I will").

"I will" turns into "I'm-uh" (usually sounds like 'ah-muh') for me.
"Go" goes after that to mean "I will go and <do something>"; it requires some physical movement, though the next room or even a couple of steps will suffice.
I don't usually say "gonna".

@anotherjohn
I think it depends on the context (and tone of voice); while I agree that I can't see "gonna" used to express future action without "later" at the end, I don't think that enunciating "going to" necessarily refers to that either. I think it's just that "going to" is more likely to be used in an excuse, since it sounds more proper.
If you weren't right next to the person you were speaking to, you might properly pronounce "going to" to ensure clarity, for instance.

EDIT: Because anotherjohn edited his post, mine seems needlessly contradictory; please ignore that. Just a notice, since I'm too lazy to edit the relevant text.

anotherjohn Wrote:Maybe it's just me, but it seems like there's a difference of nuance between 'gonna' and 'going to'.

I think the difference is that 'going to' is used for the meaning of 'I will', while the separate words are used for 'I'm heading to a destination'.
'I'm gonna do that' for 'I'm going to do that'.
Always 'I'm going to the store' and never 'I'm gonna to the store'.

(Although the forms can be combined in one sentence as in 'I'm going to go the store'/'I'm gonna go to the store', but it's still the volitional 'going' that gets contracted.)

Appending 'now' or 'later' or other time references to 'gonna' (or other expressions of volition) is for clarity, but I agree with sholum and with your revised thought that there's no time difference expressed by choosing 'gonna' over 'going to'.

aldebrn Wrote:

buonaparte Wrote:

dtcamero Wrote:if you don't have the seven scars on your chest my advice would be to use boku.

I asked a dozen male Japenese native speakers what pronoun they use when THINKING about themselves, and they all answered ORE.
No scars.

All good advice, but I can't help myself.

Or unless you're a cool swindler:

[Zgarbas]

john555 Wrote:(at least in North America)

is why I was asking about it. Pronouncing butter as budder is normal in American English, but it's not the standard in BE (though you can definitely sound like a twit saying it).
I glottal stop it if I'm not paying attention, something that everyone finds hilarious. There's this thing called the Accent Tag on youtube that includes 'water' and 'spitting' for comparison.

(things I wish I were less self-conscious about: English)

Tzadeck Wrote:My impression of までに is that it always means 'by the time' or 'before' but it doesn't mean 'until.' So I agree with viharati that you're using it wrong, but viharati's translation seems strange to me. It reads to me like "By the time you have seven scars, do not use ore."

まで（に） doesn't get along with static predicates* like 傷がある. It doesn't make sense, whether it's "By the time you have seven scars, do not use ore" or whatever. If people are forced to interpret it, they would do it as a kind of 傷がある 間/かぎり (while scars are present).

*That's difference between ある and 'have'. In other words, 胸に７つの傷を持つまで「俺」は使っちゃダメ is ok but …傷を持っているまで… is not.

.

[RawToast]

I've always used 僕 with my tutor on iTalki and in Lang-8 entries. Apart from the odd user on Lang-8 wanting to change it to 私 (and all of my conjugations to polite endings at the same time) it's been fine.

It's interesting to see that お前 can be used more than I thought. I remember using 君 on Lang-8 and got a rather nasty response about being arrogant! I always assumed that お前 was potentially more derogatory word than 君 from Rikaisama (I used to think of 俺/お前 and 僕/君 as ''pairs' of words for some reason).

My impression is that 君 is used when the speaker wants to sound intentionally belittling of the ... person they are speaking to. Dammit, what's the English for 相手?

[RawToast]

anotherjohn Wrote:My impression is that 君 is used when the speaker wants to sound intentionally belittling of the ... person they are speaking to. Dammit, what's the English for 相手?

That does make Rikaisama's suggestion of 'buddy, pal' rather misleading.

The usual explanation I've gotten from natives is that おまえ is fine for male friends, and some males will use it with their girlfriends although a lot of girls don't like that. 君 is not used very often (at least according to the natives I spoke with) outside of talking to children. I've asked a number of native Japanese females about guys calling them おまえ or 君. Without exception, everyone said they hated 君 and wouldn't want to hear that from any guy. I was surprised that several women said that they might not mind おまえ from a boyfriend depending on the guy.

Hmm, it would be interesting to see a female-focused version of this thread, to see what "l" they use. I'd love to be able to use something slightly shorter, like 僕, as I'm also closer to a tomboy than a girly girl anyway, but I'd probably get the "poor gaijin doesn't know what she's saying" look. And it already took a while to get the Japanese people near me to stop writing their emails to me in hiragana...I passed N1, but speaking is my weakest skill. I've been using 私 for most things, and こっち for casual speech, but I wish Japanese had a little more variety in the "I" words I could use.

I've heard Japanese native women use あたし in informal situations, but it might not work for everyone.

As somebody living and working in Japan, surrounded by Japanese, with Japanese friends and girlfriends who don't speak a word of English...

I can't get 僕 or 私 out of my mouth without feeling a little sick. It's just so childish / feminine in 95% of situations that you're best off deleting the words from your vocabulary altogether.

Now this certainly depends on the individual, and if you're generally meek and polite in English 僕 may be a decent choice for you. But when I hear foreigners dropping long strings of 私は it's downright painfully embarrassing.

俺 is not especially rough. 100% of males use it with their friends, family, and acquaintances. Even on the street speaking to strangers, in nearly any sort of informal situation males will use 俺. The only time this really comes across as rough is in the first 3 minutes of conversation after being properly introduced to somebody, talking to people above your social station (age, job, etc) in formal situations, and addressing clerks etc. Even so, throwing in a です or two will soften it almost completely.

I perhaps fall on the rough side of speaking, and literally never use anything except 俺. Police, company presidents, my boss, I don't care. Unless you're fluent in Japanese your smile and attitude carries a lot more import than what you refer to yourself as.

yudantaiteki Wrote:I've heard Japanese native women use あたし in informal situations, but it might not work for everyone.

私 / あたし are the most common. Children and girls trying way too hard to be cute (ぶりっ子) will say うち or refer to themselves by name (often with ちゃん attached). Males and females also often use 自分.

afterglowefx Wrote:It's just so childish / feminine in 95% of situations that you're best off deleting the words from your vocabulary altogether.

This really depends on your location and situation. Last time I was in Japan, most of the men I knew used 僕 almost exclusively. This was at Waseda University in Tokyo, and I was mostly speaking to teachers and other graduate students, but I certainly never heard 俺 in class or in formal or even semi-formal situations. In more casual situations there were some students who used 俺 but not all of them.

Quote:俺 is not especially rough. 100% of males use it with their friends, family, and acquaintances.

100%? You're sure?

I notice you live in Gunma -- Gunma, Ibaraki, and Tochigi are known for being 無敬語 regions, and in general places outside of the big cities use formal language less often.

Personally I have never met a native Japanese male who only used 俺. The guy I knew who used it the most often still used 僕 when he was in more formal situations and talking to superiors. Granted I have only lived two places in Japan (Tokyo and Tochigi city), and when I was in Tochigi I did not have any close male friends. I think that saying 俺 is a "curse word" or that foreigners should never use it is going too far. But I think you're going too far in the other direction.

Gunma is probably one of the rougher speaking places in Japan, for sure. We're considered to be the ヤンキー capital of the country, interestingly enough. So the way I learned to speak may be different from what others have grown accustomed to. And of course there are certainly some people who will use 僕 even in more casual situations, but one should think about what casual means for everybody in that context. Males using 僕 casually probably occupy a lower social ranking (subjectively or objectively) in the group even if it's 100% informal. They may be addressing the ringleader of the social circle, somebody a grade higher, their big brother's friend, you name it. Again, if you consider yourself to be more of a shy individual, 僕 is not so strange.

But on an even playing field (i.e. with family or friends of a similar social ranking) there are not very many males out there referring to themselves as 僕. And as somebody mentioned, the pronoun in use in probably every Japanese male's head is 俺.

俺 is by no means a swearword and it's perfectly normal to use it. You're not going to offend anybody. The only risk is looking like an idiot. Have you ever heard somebody with very weak English say "*****" ? It's ridiculous. Using 俺 in broken, halting Japanese is much the same. But probably still better than 私 in anything but formal situations.

afterglowefx Wrote:...

tl;dr version: I like 俺.

Look, it's neither true that 俺 is a curse word to be avoided at all costs, nor that you must cut 私 and 僕 from your vocab if you don't want to be a big girl.

Hm, I had this idea when I started learning Japanese that using 僕 or 俺 when you are a beginner sounds embarrassing, and thus I always stuck with 私 in my head. Then I kind of got used to thinking about myself as 私, and now when my Japanese is actually starting to become pretty good I'm having trouble getting used to the thought of switching to at least 僕 more often, though reading this thread I realize I should probably spend the effort.

Tzadeck Wrote:Look, it's neither true that 俺 is a curse word to be avoided at all costs, nor that you must cut 私 and 僕 from your vocab if you don't want to be a big girl.

Given that 95% of one's interactions are going to be with familiar faces I'd think intermediate speakers would find it far more preferable to come across as slightly rough to people they don't know 5% of the time than to come across as reserved or effeminate in front of the people they do know 95% of the time. While there is certainly a place for 私・僕 given a certain level of fluency, using 私 (and to a lesser extent, 僕) with one's peers and, God forbid, girlfriend, is cringe-worthy.

But "familiar faces" doesn't mean friends. In general I would not recommend using 俺 at work. You might get away with it as a foreigner, but it's not something Japanese men generally do, except maybe in certain areas (like Gunma, Ibaraki, Tochigi...even in Tochigi I didn't hear it from work people except at drinking parties.)

(If you do google searches you can see that even native Japanese men sometimes have trouble deciding which one to use.)

yudantaiteki Wrote:(If you do google searches you can see that even native Japanese men sometimes have trouble deciding which one to use.)

Complete with discussion and wildly varying opinions very much like what has come up in this thread. :X

afterglowefx Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:I've heard Japanese native women use あたし in informal situations, but it might not work for everyone.

私 / あたし are the most common. Children and girls trying way too hard to be cute (ぶりっ子) will say うち or refer to themselves by name (often with ちゃん attached). Males and females also often use 自分.

Ooh, I forgot about 自分! Maybe I should try using it.

yudantaiteki Wrote:But "familiar faces" doesn't mean friends. You should not use 俺 at work. You might get away with it as a foreigner, but it's not something Japanese men generally do, except maybe in certain areas (like Gunma, Ibaraki, Tochigi...even in Tochigi I didn't hear it from work people except at drinking parties.)

Sure, I agree with you here to a degree, but a lot depends on your working environment. People in offices and banks and such are not using 俺 unless they're joking around quietly with their buddy a desk over. But mechanics? Line cooks? People in warehouses, factories, and basically any other blue-collar job? Unless they're talking to their boss you can bet they're using 俺. Even waitstaff and convenience store clerks will use it with each other right in front of customers (but certainly not TO customers). This may just be Gunma but I've even had proprietors of smaller businesses use 俺 in conversation with me as the customer.

One thing to consider is that as 外国人さん a lot of Japanese people are going to be using a level of politeness with you that they do not use with each other. Interpreting how Japanese interact around you as normal behavior for only-Japanese situations is going to leave you with a pretty skewed view because there are precious few Japanese who interact with foreigners naturally. Even if they have a couple foreign friends. I'm not saying that you're doing this, only that it's something people reading this thread should be careful of.

EDIT - I guess for me, as a general rule of thumb, if I'm not using 敬語 or 丁寧語 I'm using 俺. And if I AM speaking politely, I very seldom use pronouns. I'm much more apt to use 自分 than I am 僕 or 私.

Probably. When I said "work" I was thinking of the type of jobs that foreigners reading this forum would likely find themselves in, which generally would not include blue-collar jobs.

For what it's worth, I've known several Japanese researchers here in the Boston area. For the most part, they use 私 and 僕 exclusively, and one surgeon I know even works in Gunma Prefecture right now and has worked there for several years before (he came to Boston for three months on sabbatical). On the other hand, when I lived in Sendai and spent a lot of time around university students, almost everyone mostly used 俺 and only occasionally would I meet someone who mostly used 僕. So it looks like what you consider "normal" greatly depends on your circle of friends.

Anyway, I think whichever first person pronoun you use is highly personal, and you should just stick to whatever feels natural to you. As others have noted, even among Japanese there are widely differing opinions about this topic.

I tend to speak in super polite Japanese, even when I'm not using 丁寧語, so no one I've asked has said that they're bothered that I use 私 all the time. Some Japanese friends have even mentioned that it suits me well given my personality and way of speaking. The point: what's natural for someone isn't necessarily whatever is most common.