buonaparte Wrote:

dtcamero Wrote:if you don't have the seven scars on your chest my advice would be to use boku.

I asked a dozen male Japenese native speakers what pronoun they use when THINKING about themselves, and they all answered ORE.
No scars.

All good advice, but I can't help myself.

buonaparte Wrote:I asked a dozen male Japenese native speakers what pronoun they use when THINKING about themselves, and they all answered ORE.

That's good to know, I was starting to fear that my use of 俺 inside my head constituted thoughtcrime

Seriously though, that's kind of what I expected to be the case for most male Japanese speakers. In my internal dialogue I address myself by my family name, yet no one I know addresses me like that and I never insist they do so. Also, even though I haven't been to an English-speaking country in more than five years I think in English most of the time, and my English internal voice sounds like a character from an Irvine Welsh novel (ah bet those shitein' c__ts dinnae even ken what ah'm talking aboot!). And I don't cuss out loud anywhere near as often as inside my head, mostly because my mumbling monotone speaking voice prevents me from ever sounding angry or threatening enough for it to work.

aldebrn Wrote:All good advice, but I can't help myself.

Neither me:

This is off-topic but ７つの傷跡があるまでに is ungrammatical and would be associated with "before seven scars disappear".

'Wanna' and 'gonna' are fine words, but in my experience Japanese tend to use them in the wrong situations and often with awkward pronunciation, grammar or mixed with polite language: "I gonna do it for you presently." It's valid to see a pattern and tell them not to use the words, but it can seem disingenuous to someone who knows their grammar, appropriacy and stress. These people don't need to be bogged down with others' complexes.

I think there are parallels here with 俺. As others have tried to say among the persistent myths about the word, it's perfectly normal and acceptable in many situations, but it's going to sound awkward when used incorrectly. That's no different to したがって、ふざけんな、にもかかわらず or 100,000 other expressions used out of place.

I've been told more than once to use 俺 instead of 僕 by girls. When drinking with guys, I've been the only 僕 more than once, and the fact that I can't use 俺 in those situations is much more a defect in my Japanese than how "strange" I might sound using it from the perspective of foreigners with an 俺 complex.

[Zgarbas]

Quote:'Wanna' and 'gonna' are fine words,

No they're not. They're contractions reflecting an informal American pronunciation of the words "want to" and "going to". They shouldn't be used outside informal chats, and unless it comes natural to that person due to their use of American English + that sort of accent should be avoided entirely. They're not bogged down with others' complexes, they are simply aware that they are words which sound unnatural in most settings so they don't bother. Unfortunately, while natives manage to get away with anything, foreigners are always under a spotlight. If a native strays from standard pronunciation, it's a native accent. If a foreigner does, it's a mispronunciation. Same for word usage. Such is life.
If you're the only 僕 use 俺, if someone actively tells you to switch then do it; but if you do it on your own without knowing what you're doing you should get used to the fact that people will judge you for it. (much like how in this case you're being judged for your use of 僕; what counts as a choice for a native is a chore for the foreigner）

Zgarbas Wrote:They're contractions reflecting an informal American pronunciation of the words "want to" and "going to". They shouldn't be used outside informal chats, and unless it comes natural to that person due to their use of American English + that sort of accent should be avoided entirely. They're not bogged down with others' complexes, they are simply aware that they are words which sound unnatural in most settings so they don't bother.

As a British guy who uses 'gonna' fairly regularly, informal chats with family, co-workers, friends and acquaintances make up the majority of my daily speaking, but this will differ with lifestyle, and I did mention appropriacy to be fair.

The kind of 'complex' I was trying (unsuccessfully) to describe is that of learners of Japanese hearing lots of bad 俺 usage from foreigners and then making word choices based on that experience, rather than on their own knowledge of the language, the situation and advice from their native friends.

Quote:If you're the only 僕 use 俺, if someone actively tells you to switch then do it; but if you do it on your own without knowing what you're doing you should get used to the fact that people will judge you for it.

People are going to judge everything you say. The problem here is that people single out 俺 and believe it's going to be judged negatively even when it's a valid option. When you hear 100 native guys of different ages, backgrounds and occupations say 俺 in a bunch of different situations, some of the stuff about "masculinity", curse words and yakuza reads like parody.

[Zgarbas]

jimeux Wrote:As a British guy who uses 'gonna' fairly regularlyr.

Could I ask where you're from? Now that I think about it I have a friend who uses gonna (not wanna), but though he's Welsh his vocab is incredibly American English (I blame pop culture).


The 7 scars on your chest thing is really cool, though.

By the by, I noticed that kids here use お前 when talking to one another and did a spittake since I thought that only happened in anime. I think that with that any opinion I might've had on proper pronoun usage died.

Zgarbas Wrote:

jimeux Wrote:As a British guy who uses 'gonna' fairly regularlyr.

Could I ask where you're from? Now that I think about it I have a friend who uses gonna (not wanna), but though he's Welsh his vocab is incredibly American English (I blame pop culture).

I'm not British, but there is a pretty famous song by a British rock group that goes "I wanna hold your hand"

When I am talking with most people in Japan I use 僕, and very rarely 私.

With my wife it's fun to use 俺 sometimes, but that's mostly because we are messing around by calling each other お前！, てめえ！, この野郎！, 馬鹿野郎！, or a personal favourite of mine, たわけ！...

Zgarbas Wrote:Could I ask where you're from? Now that I think about it I have a friend who uses gonna (not wanna), but though he's Welsh his vocab is incredibly American English (I blame pop culture).

I grew up in the Midlands and close to East London. A lot more Americanisms have crept into British English since I grew up though. I see them a lot in comments on news sites.

Zgarbas Wrote:By the by, I noticed that kids here use お前 when talking to one another and did a spittake since I thought that only happened in anime. I think that with that any opinion I might've had on proper pronoun usage died.

My view of these words has changed a lot since living in Japan. I think there's an argument to be made for telling people not to use them, or not to learn Japanese from anime, but I think it's worth rethinking that at some point. お前 is definitely a lot more delicate than 俺 though...

You can't trust anime, but anime isn't always wrong. Also remember that kids pick up some of their usage from anime.

Zgarbas Wrote:The 7 scars on your chest thing is really cool, though.

I would love to see yours.

@viharati
Re: 胸に七つの傷跡があるまでに

I'm not sure you are correct. I've seen many instances of までに that seem to indicate that までに can be used that way, eg., from my 電子辞書:
返事をするまでによく考えておきなさい。

I'm also not sure why I should trust your opinion...

[Zgarbas]

RandomQuotes Wrote:

Zgarbas Wrote:

jimeux Wrote:As a British guy who uses 'gonna' fairly regularlyr.

Could I ask where you're from? Now that I think about it I have a friend who uses gonna (not wanna), but though he's Welsh his vocab is incredibly American English (I blame pop culture).

I'm not British, but there is a pretty famous song by a British rock group that goes "I wanna hold your hand"

Nope. it does sound that way when they're singing, but singing considerably changes your pronounciation (the most obvious change being the fact that Scouse is non-rhotic but the Beatles singing is rhotic). Compare with the way Lennon actually speaks (includes a 'going to' at the beginning)

Inny Jan Wrote:

Zgarbas Wrote:The 7 scars on your chest thing is really cool, though.

I would love to see yours.

@viharati
Re: 胸に七つの傷跡があるまでに

I'm not sure you are correct. I've seen many instances of までに that seem to indicate that までに can be used that way, eg., from my 電子辞書:
返事をするまでによく考えておきなさい。

I'm also not sure why I should trust your opinion...

My impression of までに is that it always means 'by the time' or 'before' but it doesn't mean 'until.' So I agree with viharati that you're using it wrong, but viharati's translation seems strange to me. It reads to me like "By the time you have seven scars, do not use ore."

In the example you gave: "Before you respond to me, think about it carefully."

まで without に does mean 'until,' however.

Thanks Tzadeck. I will be asking here and there about まで/までに after the holiday season is over.

Inny Jan Wrote:Thanks Tzadeck. I will be asking here and there about まで/までに after the holiday season is over.

I'm not sure if it was the intention, but「のはだめ」sounds kind of funny coming from that bad guy too. It made me think of Nobita's mother for some reason. 「使うな」or「使うんじゃない」are a bit more macho-sounding.

jimeux Wrote:My view of these words has changed a lot since living in Japan. I think there's an argument to be made for telling people not to use them, or not to learn Japanese from anime, but I think it's worth rethinking that at some point. お前 is definitely a lot more delicate than 俺 though...

Does お前 (omae) literally mean something like "thou [who art standing] before me..."?

"Formerly honorific" according to dictionaries (also, Edict's definition #2: presence (of a god, nobleman, etc.)), so it's just a usage shift. Kinda like 貴様, except no one uses 貴様 anymore.

Vempele Wrote:Kinda like 貴様, except no one uses 貴様 anymore.

I've seen some phishing spam emails written in horribly mangled keigo that included phrases like 貴様のおアカウントのパスワードを送っていただけないでしょうか。Looks like they were written by someone who had some vague idea of how polite Japanese works, because I don't think translation software would have screwed up this badly. But yeah, that's the only time I've seen it used outside fiction.

Zgarbas Wrote:Nope. it does sound that way when they're singing, but singing considerably changes your pronounciation (the most obvious change being the fact that Scouse is non-rhotic but the Beatles singing is rhotic). Compare with the way Lennon actually speaks (includes a 'going to' at the beginning)

Lennon's original hand written lyrics are written with "wanna". But, it was more that yes, wanna and gonna are used in the United Kingdom, and some places in the US don't use them. Either is fine, so long as it's natural. The same goes with most bits of a language.

john555 Wrote:Does お前 (omae) literally mean something like "thou [who art standing] before me..."?

Literally? Yes-ish.[Thou, was the familiar second person pronoun akin to Du in German or Tu in French] But in the same way that "vanilla" literately means "vagina"

RandomQuotes Wrote:

Zgarbas Wrote:Nope. it does sound that way when they're singing, but singing considerably changes your pronounciation (the most obvious change being the fact that Scouse is non-rhotic but the Beatles singing is rhotic). Compare with the way Lennon actually speaks (includes a 'going to' at the beginning)

Lennon's original hand written lyrics are written with "wanna". But, it was more that yes, wanna and gonna are used in the United Kingdom, and some places in the US don't use them. Either is fine, so long as it's natural. The same goes with most bits of a language.

Yes, the key to using "wanna" and "gonna" is that it has to sound natural.

In fact, now that I think of it, I use "wanna" and "gonna" all the time at work (like most people do). So at a meeting I'll say "I wanna find out what the auditor thinks about" but I say "wanna" really really fast without any emphasis so it sounds perfectly natural. I don't say "wanT To" because producing an unvoiced dental ("T") would be awkward and interrupt the natural flow of what I'm saying.

(I'm a native English speaker, so I'm an expert on this )

RandomQuotes Wrote:

Zgarbas Wrote:Nope. it does sound that way when they're singing, but singing considerably changes your pronounciation (the most obvious change being the fact that Scouse is non-rhotic but the Beatles singing is rhotic). Compare with the way Lennon actually speaks (includes a 'going to' at the beginning)

Lennon's original hand written lyrics are written with "wanna". But, it was more that yes, wanna and gonna are used in the United Kingdom, and some places in the US don't use them. Either is fine, so long as it's natural. The same goes with most bits of a language.

Yes, the key to using "wanna" and "gonna" is that it has to sound natural.

In fact, now that I think of it, I use "wanna" and "gonna" all the time at work (like most people do). So at a meeting I'll say "I wanna find out what the auditor thinks about" but I say "wanna" really really fast without any emphasis so it sounds perfectly natural. I don't say "wanT To" because producing an unvoiced dental ("T") would be awkward and interrupt the natural flow of what I'm saying.

It's exactly the same thing with words like "butter": native English speakers (at least in North America) actually say "budder" (voiced dental) NOT buTTer. This is because an unvoiced dental between two vowels is awkward (and makes the speaker sound like a twit).

For me, "I'm going to" goes to "Imunna" (when it means "I will").

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like there's a difference of nuance between 'gonna' and 'going to'.

"I'm gonna brush my teeth" sounds like you're going to do it right away, whereas "I'm going to brush my teeth" sounds less immediate, like you intend to do it some point but not necessarily right away, perhaps because of an emphasis on the 'going' part.

Edit: on second thoughts, seems like they're interchangeable depending on the emphasis:

e.g. I'm GONNA brush my teeth ... just not yet. I'M going to brush my teeth (right away). etc.