dtcamero Wrote:i think it sounds stupid when foreigners use ore. it's like a mild curse word, and i'm sure you know how awkward it is when someone with bad english tries to sound cool by cursing.

I'm sort of under that impression, too, but with certain attempts by foreigners to replicate accents such as the rough kansai dialect.

To me, if a foreigner attempts to use that dialect, even if they're good at it, it always seemed as though it would come off as offensive. Comparably, it seems like it would be like someone from Japan learning English and using a deep Texan accent.

And I've usually heard ore being used with a sort of rough accent/demeanor as you mentioned.

Stansfield123 Wrote:Dammit. That's why I never got a second invite.

It is silly to think about. But at the same time I think it would be funny if a foreigner got an invite to Japan to meet the Prime Minister or the Emperor, and because of watching a lot of anime or something they were under the impression that they could show off, and in doing so mistakenly refer to the Prime Minister or the Emperor as something like "Prime Minister-kun" and "Emperor-kun" in Japanese.

I intentionally use 私 in almost all situations (I only use the other two when I'm joking, usually when making fun of a hyper-macho guy or man-child, respectively). First, because 俺 sounds too affected and 僕 sounds too immature. Second, for gender neutral reasons. Third, I have a stiff personality. My Japanese friends say that it suits me quite well given my character, so I've stuck with it.

TsugiAshi Wrote:

dtcamero Wrote:i think it sounds stupid when foreigners use ore. it's like a mild curse word, and i'm sure you know how awkward it is when someone with bad english tries to sound cool by cursing.

I'm sort of under that impression, too, but with certain attempts by foreigners to replicate accents such as the rough kansai dialect.

To me, if a foreigner attempts to use that dialect, even if they're good at it, it always seemed as though it would come off as offensive. Comparably, it seems like it would be like someone from Japan learning English and using a deep Texan accent.

And I've usually heard ore being used with a sort of rough accent/demeanor as you mentioned.

I know a Japanese guy who learned French before he learned English (and studied English in France) so he has a French accent in English. It's pretty flippin' awesome. Also, strangely(?), completely natural.

Using "ore," dialects, etc etc.. is more about them coming naturally than whether or not the person is "good" at them. I think.

Ash_S Wrote:俺 with friends, kohai, girlfriend etc. or if it just slips out; 僕 with teachers I'm familiar with, senpai etc.; 私orわたくし for situations which require more formality...
This is pretty normal at least for guys my age (university) I think.

Definitely something native Japanese think about and discuss as well though →　google search

What does that kind of discussion say about the Japanese language, and about Japanese culture and society?

Sebastian Wrote:

Ash_S Wrote:俺 with friends, kohai, girlfriend etc. or if it just slips out; 僕 with teachers I'm familiar with, senpai etc.; 私orわたくし for situations which require more formality...
This is pretty normal at least for guys my age (university) I think.

Definitely something native Japanese think about and discuss as well though →　google search

What does that kind of discussion say about the Japanese language, and about Japanese culture and society?

My impression of Japanese people from my study of their language is that (compared with say the ancient Romans; I studied Latin for many years) the Japanese are obsessed with class distinctions and status and also like to beat around the bush rather than get right to the point.

E.g., "If you do not study it will not do" (Japanese). "Study!" (Ancient Rome).

Inny Jan Wrote:Here is how スネイプ先生 refers to himself on two different occasions:
1. 「これを投げ入れた者が誰かわかった暁には」スネイプが低い声で言った。「我輩が、まちがいなくそやつを退学にさせてやる」
2. 『私、スネイプ教授は、本日クィディッチ競技場において、新人シーカーを教育する必要があるため、スリザリン・チームが練習することを許可する』

Harry uses 僕 almost exclusively.
Hagrid goes with 俺.

When Oliver Wood (Gryffindor quidditch team captain) argues with Marcus Flint (Slytherins' captain) about booking the pitch, he goes:
「僕が予約したんだぞ？」

And finally, I can't recall/find Dumbledore's using anything other than わし.

Of course, HP is a book from the wizardry world but something tells me that the translator, in order to reflect nature of the characters, used pronouns as they would be used in a non-wizardry world.

Fiction is one of the worst places to learn about this because they use styles that have become customary in fiction to deliniate certain kinds of characters, but aren't used in real life. You will never hear anyone use 我輩 except as a joke, and most old people do not use わし, at least not in standard dialect.

So you dismiss my post simply because Snape and Dumbledore use pronouns that are not used on daily basis? (How many people who are like Snape or Dumbledore, do you know in real life, BTW?)

Would you also dismiss Harry's, Hagrid's, and Wood's using 僕/俺? (And similarly, how many people who are like Harry or Wood, do you know in real life?)

I disagree with you that fiction is the worst place to learn about language - you need however take into account character that is being portrayed (which was a disclaimer that I placed in my OP anyway).

drdunlap Wrote:I know a Japanese guy who learned French before he learned English (and studied English in France) so he has a French accent in English. It's pretty flippin' awesome. Also, strangely(?), completely natural.

Using "ore," dialects, etc etc.. is more about them coming naturally than whether or not the person is "good" at them. I think.

Sorry for the long post.

I want to say it sounds silly, but after thinking about it it really makes sense. After you mentioned that about the french accent, it sort of got me thinking about dialects in general. Namely in how I'm thinking that the Japanese guy you know who learned French and developed a natural-like French accent in doing so developed that accent because it is the natural and common accent of French people (I'm not sure how many different accents there are in France tbh).

With that in mind, I'm comparing it to how English speaking people who learn Japanese tend to do so by mimicking the standard dialect of Japan, rather than ones like the kansai dialect. If that's the case, then it seems less silly (if silly at all really) because it seems to be the general practice in learning languages to develop a native sounding accent that mirrors the most common dialect of said language.

So when a Japanese person learns English, it doesn't seem silly when they develop the common "American" accent, but probably would if they opted to focus on the less common Texan accent, or even possibly an English accent. Like how an American living in England might force themselves to speak with an English accent in order to fit in better, which would probably come off as silly.

And with the Japanese guy you know. It makes sense that he would have a French accent while speaking English since he first developed the French accent while learning French, and then went on to learn English through French, which I imagine just means that he retained his French accent rather than trying to do away with it for the American accent, since I'm assuming he wasn't really exposed much to the American accent.

That is actually sort of interesting to think about and dissect. It also makes me curious to know if there are many people who learn English through the United Kingdom and England, since I'd imagine they would naturally try to develop an English accent in doing so.

So as to not get too far off-topic I'll tie this back in to the 私・僕・俺 thing as well!

I think the problem arises when someone tries to copy a dialect, use slang, or use a certain personal pronoun because of <insert reason here>. I have another Japanese friend who curses like a sailor in English and sounds totally natural because she's not forcing it- that's just kind of how she is.

Unfortunately, I don't know many Japanese people with natural English accents so it's hard to say.. but it's the same deal with the French accent guy. He speaks like that because, obviously, that's the context in which he learned to speak English. I also imagine a lot of the people he spoke to in English (while learning) were actually French. He's not trying to sound French- it just kind of happened.

I, also, have a pretty thick Osakan accent because I learned to speak Japanese while living in Kansai. I certainly studied by mimicking standard Japanese during my time in university, but my Japanese friends were from Kansai and I ended up studying abroad in Kobe as well so I had a lot of Kansai influence even in my early years of copying standard dialect. I've never actually studied Kansai-ben, either. I do like it, though, because it's much easier to express emotion in Kansai-ben. It's a very lively dialect. Kansai-jin say that, because of this, I'm very 親しみやすい- easy to get to know? get along with? And no one thinks it's odd- probably because I never tried to sound like I was from Kansai- it just sort of... happened.

In the same way, I use 僕 because I feel like a 僕. I'm not really sure what that means... BUT! Japanese people do the same thing. I know some very not-manly people who use 俺 and some very manly people who use 僕. It's all about the person's perception of himself. However, as learners of Japanese, it's kind of tough to develop this without using the language quite a bit.

dtcamero Wrote:if you don't have the seven scars on your chest my advice would be to use boku.

Best advice ever.

dtcamero Wrote:if you don't have the seven scars on your chest my advice would be to use boku.

I asked a dozen male Japenese native speakers what pronoun they use when THINKING about themselves, and they all answered ORE.
No scars. All educated people, with very good English. Astronomers or biologists.
They might have lied, of course.

Mm, it greatly confused me when people with vastly better Japanese than I have consider 俺 as some kind of curse word when I hear it all the time from perfectly normal people. I've heard this 'never use 俺' advice before but I can't believe it anymore.

Aikynaro Wrote:I've heard this 'never use 俺' advice before but I can't believe it anymore.

I think this is because in most formal or polite contexts that a student would find themselves in (aside from friends, which for some reason teachers never seem to consider), boku would be a better choice. I find most teachers tend to err on the side of caution.

This week I happened to hang out with a friend and a Japanese guy who is staying in Italy for a while.
When I firstly used 僕 he laughed a bit, then when he used 俺 and saw my surprise he also added something like: "ah, you don't have to be so polite. We are male friends of the same age so using 俺 and お前 is normal in this kind of situation."

I had previously asked him about keigo/polite language vs ため口, and I asked for confirmation after his statement (like: "are you sure お前 it's ok? I heard it's pretty 失礼").
I think it really depends on the type of person though, yesterday I met another Japanese guy who said he never uses 俺 because he doesn't like it, but I wouldn't say it's a curse word nor something similar.

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Yeah, 俺 is certainly not a "curse word" which you can only use when you have "seven scars". It's a normal word which men very often use. It's just a matter of knowing who you can use it with in what situations, which itself is just a matter of being used to natural Japanese, I guess. Also, the use of pronouns (inc. 僕 and 俺) in fiction can be used to give certain impressions of characters which do not hold true in real life.

The 'awkward foreigner swearing in English' analogy is somewhat apt, and the teacher who says never use 俺 has good intentions (low expectations?), but just as many non native English speakers go beyond this level to where they can swear naturally, I don't think Japanese learners should feel held back from learning to speak natural Japanese.

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Is there an age limit beyond which you're not supposed to use "ore" to refer to yourself?

Arupan Wrote:The tendency nowadays is for men to call themselves 自分 like in Kansai btw.

What? In Kansai-ben it's pretty normal to use 自分 as a sort of second person pronoun. An example I just found when Googling this is 「そんなわがままを言っているのは自分だけだって。」 Here a Tokyoite would probably say あなただけだって or something along those lines.

I don't think I've ever heard people use 自分 in the place of わたし・僕・俺 though, and when I just Googled it all I found was people asking about the second-person pronoun usage. So, in less I'm missing something I think you might be mistaken.

Kansai-ben does have some different first person pronouns though. The most obvious is うち for youngish girls. I've also heard that young women using their first name as a first person pronoun is more prevalent and used at older ages in Kansai compared to Tokyo, but I don't know if that's true. My ex-girlfriend was named 桜 and she always called herself さくら rather than わたし・あたし・うち.

john555 Wrote:Is there an age limit beyond which you're not supposed to use "ore" to refer to yourself?

Naw, old people use it to. It's definitely most prevalent in 10-15 year old boys though, haha. It's just them years, ya know. Try going to a fifth or sixth grade elementary school class in Japan and you'll see what I mean.

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I don't think using "ore" is as taboo as some people think, it's perfectly normal to hear from adult males outside of work or formal situations. I've never been commented by japanese about my use of it either; it shouldn't sound ridiculous unless you are trying to emphasize it.

A potential problem some foreigners have with "ore" is that the rest of their speech doesn't really match the word. It takes time and experience to become familiar speaking in a style that sounds masculine and "rough" enough to fit with "ore".

something we're all losing track of here in the discussion, is that no one is saying it's unnatural for japanese men, of whatever variety of manliness, to use ore. no one. its fine for them.

some folks are simply suggesting that for foreigners who have learnt japanese to a still-imperfect level, it will probably sound unnatural.

dtcamero Wrote:something we're all losing track of here in the discussion, is that no one is saying it's unnatural for japanese men, of whatever variety of manliness, to use ore. no one. its fine for them.

some folks are simply suggesting that for foreigners who have learnt japanese to a still-imperfect level, it will probably sound unnatural.

I wonder if the use of "ore" by foreigners could be comparable to a native Japanese speaker calling people "bro."

Edit: after thinking about it for a moment, even though it would sound unnatural or even kind of silly, foreigners using slang words like "ore" and "bro" is probably just a matter of monkey see, monkey do. So I can't really fault someone for doing it.

Someone who's learning Japanese while watching a lot of anime and Yakuza movies might pick up ore as a common way to refer to himself. So even if it sounds unnatural, the person picked up the phrase of speech in a natural-like way.


A bit off-topic, but now I remember where I saw a scene that had an Asian person who was speaking French with a French accent. Rush Hour 3. I knew that what you were talking about sounded similar to something I've seen before.

In the movie, Chris Tucker and Jackie Chan are in France and they capture a member of the Triads. And while they're comedically interrogating him, he's just speaking in French with a flawless accent, and Chris Tucker's character is slapping him and yelling at him in his high voice, telling him to speak properly since the Triad member is Asian.