Hi all, sorry to write this here but I need some help... I feel I'm burned out of japanese study... not japanese itself, but studying it... and I feel great part of the responsability is anki, I cannot keep it anymore... I feel greatly deprexed for this and other reasons, so the only thought to do anki reps makes me feel really bad... I don't know what to do, I've put so much effort in those six months but I see how much there is still to learn, not to talk about all the things I'm forgetting... I don't know, today I failed to recognize 返す, and yesterday I read 借 as 昔... I have a feeling of fear to get in touch with japanese, as I see something japanese on facebook I close it because I fear to see something I'm supposed to know and I don't recognize... I'm so sad

Well first you shouldn't worry, little things like that happen all the time. I think it's one of the reasons AJATT came to place, it's because the distance between western languages and Japanese is so great it's hard to learn/retain the knowledge and some felt that spending a lot of time with the language might be a workaround.

Anyway, Anki has disheartened more than enough learners, so just forget about it for now. But you'll have to be aware that whatever you'll be doing (reading, watching things, etc) you might end up doing lot of dictionary lookups (so don't let that get to you). Just do stuff you enjoy with the language, and you'll probably have the motivation to resume Anki after awhile.

EratiK Wrote:Well first you shouldn't worry, little things like that happen all the time. I think it's one of the reasons AJATT came to place, it's because the distance between western languages and Japanese is so great it's hard to learn/retain the knowledge and some felt that spending a lot of time with the language might be a workaround.

Anyway, Anki has disheartened more than enough learners, so just forget about it for now. But you'll have to be aware that whatever you'll be doing (reading, watching things, etc) you'll do a lot of dictionary lookups (and that can work like a natural SRS in a way). Just do stuff you enjoy with the language, and you'll probably have the motivation to resume Anki after awhile.

EratiK, thank you very much for your kind answer, I needed to hear something like this... more than anki it's the core deck that make me feel the worst... my grammar deck with all the self-mined sentences from genki and aiaij are fun to do, but they are like 30 reps evey day... but the core deck is like 160 reps today... I cannot keep it anymore but I don't know what to do, delete it? what to do to maintain at least the kanji knowledge? I've stopped my rtk deck month ago, now in the last desperate tentative to fight this depression I've restarted it but I cannot keep it because I feel it's doing too little to justify the fact I'm doing it...

So I was thinking to do something maybe more useful but simpler to maintain, maybe? Like kanji on front, and "real meaning" plus at least one onyomi on back... because I feel with better meanings I could retain better knowledge of compounds words without need to do vocabulary deck like crazy...

So my grammar deck that I love, plus a kanji deck and maybe in future a little deck with words with non standard readings or kunyomi words...

or maybe just stop anki and use a phisical notepad to study from... I feel this could be my safeness... maybe I wouldn't know 10000 vocabs in a year but I feel this could be better than nothing...

cophnia61 Wrote:So I was thinking to do something maybe more useful but simpler to maintain, maybe? Like kanji on front, and "real meaning" plus at least one onyomi on back... because I feel with better meanings I could retain better knowledge of compounds words without need to do vocabulary deck like crazy...

I'm not sure I understand, how having kanji on the front, and meaning+on'yomi on the back is different from a vocabulary deck. Unless you want to write one kanji per card, but then you'll have something like 10 meanings on the back and that would be very hard to retain. Plus you should know a lot of compounds are "illogical" and you can't understand them by just analyzing their individual kanji components. So either lookups (maybe you can buy an electronic dictionary?) or a vocabulary deck/lists are sort of unavoidable if you don't do a method like LR.

Oh and 160 reps are really not that much if you're doing recognition. You should'nt spend more than 10 seconds on a card. But since you're anki burned out, instead of failing the cards after 10 seconds, just choose hard. I also hope you don't have the deck where every word is on 5 cards (I don't like this format).

EratiK Wrote:

cophnia61 Wrote:So I was thinking to do something maybe more useful but simpler to maintain, maybe? Like kanji on front, and "real meaning" plus at least one onyomi on back... because I feel with better meanings I could retain better knowledge of compounds words without need to do vocabulary deck like crazy...

I'm not sure I understand, how having kanji on the front, and meaning+on'yomi on the back is different from a vocabulary deck. Unless you want to write one kanji per card, but then you'll have something like 10 meanings on the back and that would be very hard to retain. Plus you should know a lot of compounds are "illogical" and you can't understand them by just analyzing their individual kanji components. So either lookups (maybe you can buy an electronic dictionary?) or a vocabulary deck/lists are sort of unavoidable if you don't do a method like LR.

Rethinking about it I said a stupid thing xD I know some compounds are illogical, but the fact is I cannot bear to do RtK with all the writing thing etc.. So I was thinking baybe to do kanji on front is easier? Just to maintain the capacity to tell apart a kanji from another... So if it shows me 昔 I could say "this is the kanji of mukashi" instead of seeing a keyword and from the keyword be able to reproduce the kanji... and maybe, let's say, a vocabulary deck but the minimum required, like a word for every onyomi and the words "mixed up" like 値段... and kunyomi words... but only really common words, because for now I have not much interest in reading novels etc.. but only in maintaining a knowledge to be able to get in touch with natives... I know when I started I was most interested in reading manga etc.. but now it's flipped, with only interest in being able to communicate with japanese people...

EratiK Wrote:

cophnia61 Wrote:So I was thinking to do something maybe more useful but simpler to maintain, maybe? Like kanji on front, and "real meaning" plus at least one onyomi on back... because I feel with better meanings I could retain better knowledge of compounds words without need to do vocabulary deck like crazy...

I'm not sure I understand, how having kanji on the front, and meaning+on'yomi on the back is different from a vocabulary deck. Unless you want to write one kanji per card, but then you'll have something like 10 meanings on the back and that would be very hard to retain. Plus you should know a lot of compounds are "illogical" and you can't understand them by just analyzing their individual kanji components. So either lookups (maybe you can buy an electronic dictionary?) or a vocabulary deck/lists are sort of unavoidable if you don't do a method like LR.

Oh and 160 reps are really not that much if you're doing recognition. You should'nt spend more than 10 seconds on a card. But since you're anki burned out, instead of failing the cards after 10 seconds, just choose hard. I also hope you don't have the deck where every word is on 5 cards (I don't like this format).

I have only recognition thanks god XD ahaha but the thing that makes me more "burned out" now is the kanji confusion I'm having... So I'm literarly fearing to do vocab reps because I'm failing words with similar kanji, or I recognize the kanji but I don't remember the reading, or I remember the reading but I cannot recall the meaning... so a big mess And I feel is most psicological than other...

So in other words, what to do for kanji? To stop the confusion from similar kanji and their onyomi? like 職 and 識 just to make an example... is RtK "from keyword" the only way?

In other other words xD a "kanji damage" approach instead of rtk, how do you see it?

cophnia61 Wrote:... more than anki it's the core deck that make me feel the worst... my grammar deck with all the self-mined sentences from genki and aiaij are fun to do, but they are like 30 reps evey day... but the core deck is like 160 reps today... I cannot keep it anymore but I don't know what to do, delete it? what to do to maintain at least the kanji knowledge? I've stopped my rtk deck month ago, now in the last desperate tentative to fight this depression I've restarted it but I cannot keep it because I feel it's doing too little to justify the fact I'm doing it...

So my grammar deck that I love, plus a kanji deck and maybe in future a little deck with words with non standard readings or kunyomi words...

Do whatever makes you happy. As long as you're doing something to push the ball along and keep progressing, that's what matters - not if you keep up with anki reviews. My guess is that your workload is a little too much and your accuracy is a little too low.

If you're not down for completely abandoning anki, just stop adding new cards for a while and the reviews will eventually go down (around 1/3 less after the first week or so). Another thing you can do is filter out all of the mature cards 'prop:ivl>21'. That'll remove all the mature cards from your decks (~another 1/3), so that you can focus on the cards that you're more likely to forget. The mature cards, you're less likely to forget if you put them off for a week or a month and they'll still be in the filtered deck if you feel inspired to study a few here and there. These are both things that I have done and will be doing over holidays when I want to do a little more enjoying and a little less anki

If you postpone the mature cards and stop adding new cards, your workload will be about 1/3 of what it currently is and make the holidays a lot more enjoyable.

cophnia61 Wrote:I have only recognition thanks god XD ahaha but the thing that makes me more "burned out" now is the kanji confusion I'm having... So I'm literarly fearing to do vocab reps because I'm failing words with similar kanji, or I recognize the kanji but I don't remember the reading, or I remember the reading but I cannot recall the meaning... so a big mess sad And I feel is most psicological than other...

Again, this is perfectly normal if you consider the i+1 angle: in a vocab deck a card is composed of 3 parts (meaning/kanji/reading), and normally we should learn that in steps (meaning/kanji or meaning/reading first and then the remaing part on another card, but that would make enormous decks). Most people do that by failing a card, no biggie.

Quote:So in other words, what to do for kanji? To stop the confusion from similar kanji and their onyomi? like 職 and 識 just to make an example... is RtK "from keyword" the only way?
In other other words xD a "kanji damage" approach instead of rtk, how do you see it?

Ah, now I understand. I don't know, when I did RTK, I had different stories for 職 and 識 (though I did confuse them too like everybody else in the beginning), but now I know some vocab, they are indelibly associated to different compounds, namely 就職 しゅうしょく　and 意識　いしき. Imho on'yomi needs a minimum of context, at the very least the context of the compound (because without you fall back on the problem of the homophones where 10 kanji are read かん, 10 are read げん, etc, and that would confuse me more than learning vocab personally). But that said we're all different, and if you feel that can work out for you go ahead!

Of course RTK from keyword isn't the only way. One thing you could try is the RTK with Japanese keywords deck (by wrightak) and do it recognition style. Although there are lots of kun'yomi I think (since they're a natural choice for single kanji words), but at least you could edit it so you don't have to start a deck from scratch.

I'm sorry I don't really know kanji damage. But you sound like you already know a lot of kanji, so you should use it only for the problematic ones (like the two you pointed out), I don't think you should do the whole thing.

You could also do something like reading stuff that are heavily on'yomi oriented. The four-kanji idioms deck is like that... though that's still Anki I'm afraid. I'm sure other people will share other methods too.

What Eratik said. Stop worrying so much about Anki and just do fun things in Japanese. Anki is great for helping remember obscure stuff, or stuff you don't read very often, but if you read a lot, that takes care of the reps.

So read. Read a lot. Put the stuff you look up in your deck, and study that if you must. Or get one of those Campus vocab notebooks on Jbox, and use those for a while. They're useful, too, as a way to quickly drill through words you want to learn. Then dump them in Anki when you know them, since you may not see them in everything you read.

And there will be no AnkiSpankings for those who skip reviews. So you can safely ditch it for a little while and it'll wait for you to come back to it.

cophnia61 Wrote:I have only recognition thanks god XD ahaha but the thing that makes me more "burned out" now is the kanji confusion I'm having... So I'm literarly fearing to do vocab reps because I'm failing words with similar kanji, or I recognize the kanji but I don't remember the reading, or I remember the reading but I cannot recall the meaning... so a big mess And I feel is most psicological than other...

So in other words, what to do for kanji? To stop the confusion from similar kanji and their onyomi? like 職 and 識 just to make an example... is RtK "from keyword" the only way?

I find I get depressed when my accuracy goes down below ~80%. The antidote to that....more learning steps and suspending leeches.

If you find you keep confusing two different kanji, just suspend one of them and you won't confuse them any more. Of course you have to learn it sometime, but it doesn't have to be today. Learn one kanji really well and then unsuspend the other kanji or vocab and they'll both be a lot easier to tell apart. Here is how Damian describes interference:

Anki Manual Wrote:Some leeches are caused by interference. For example, an English learner may have recently learnt the words "disappoint" and "disappear". As they look similar, the learner may find themselves confusing the two when trying to answer. In these situations, it’s often productive to concentrate on just one idea. When that idea is firmly ingrained in your mind, you can then return to learning the other idea. So in these situations, you may want to leave one of the words suspended until you have learnt the other one well, and then unsuspend it in the browser.

Thank you all for your help! Now I feel a little better, in the end I think I'll keep it like it is and do just reviews for a while, and see if I regain my desire to study... The only thing I'll do is a kanji deck because I feel I need it, but recognition style so it's easier to do...

Quote:Ah, now I understand. I don't know, when I did RTK, I had different stories for 職 and 識 (though I did confuse them too like everybody else in the beginning), but now I know some vocab, they are indelibly associated to different compounds, namely 就職 しゅうしょく　and 意識　いしき. Imho on'yomi needs a minimum of context, at the very least the context of the compound (because without you fall back on the problem of the homophones where 10 kanji are read かん, 10 are read げん, etc, and that would confuse me more than learning vocab personally). But that said we're all different, and if you feel that can work out for you go ahead!

You're right, also I know those two words, maybe this is a better example: 結 格 絡 those three. For example when I see 結婚 I recognize it no problem, but if I see the first kanji in another word I go in a total confusion. I know I need something to drill the kanji, like RtK, because obviously it helps enormously in this respect. But I don't know what to do precisely. I don't know if it makes sense to do it with kanji on front or if it's a total waste of time.

I for one can't imagine doing Core2k/Core6k. Take a look at @gaiaslastlaugh's blog post, where he/she discusses the shotcomings of "grabbing a pre-made Anki deck of some 2,000, 6,000 or 10,000 Japanese words and churning through it with brute force": http://nihonpoi.com/blog/studying-japane...-sure-way/

Also on a personal note, I am designing an app for both learning and practicing recall (two different things!) that takes a lot of user interface inspiration from the paper-pencil/notebook approach, and where you spend a lot of time looking at material that you've already learned and are learning. Thank you for describing your current workflow and the problems you're finding with it---I think that a lot of people run into this, and that with better tools, they wouldn't quite so often.

aldebrn Wrote:I for one can't imagine doing Core2k/Core6k. Take a look at @gaiaslastlaugh's blog post, where he/she discusses the shotcomings of "grabbing a pre-made Anki deck of some 2,000, 6,000 or 10,000 Japanese words and churning through it with brute force": http://nihonpoi.com/blog/studying-japane...-sure-way/

Maybe there's something I'm missing, but I don't see how gaiaslastlaugh's method is any different than "brute forcing vocab through anki" paired with some writing practice. Of course there's something to be said about a targeted vocabulary list. But I don't see how the pre-study with midori flashcards is any different than studying with anki flashcards outright.

cophnia61 Wrote:You're right, also I know those two words, maybe this is a better example: 結 格 絡 those three. For example when I see 結婚 I recognize it no problem, but if I see the first kanji in another word I go in a total confusion. I know I need something to drill the kanji, like RtK, because obviously it helps enormously in this respect. But I don't know what to do precisely. I don't know if it makes sense to do it with kanji on front or if it's a total waste of time.

It's not a waste of time. If like you said your objective is to communicate with Japanese people (so that would be speaking/listenning/typing), there's no need to bother with writing, especially if it crowds you.

Regarding what you said before, I guess you should find why you're totally thrown in confusion: is it because you don't know the second kanji? because you don't know the association between the first and the second kanji? or are you just not used to see them associated?

Case one is solved by drilling the second kanji, case two by drilling the association after you've mastered kanji 1 and 2, case three is a problem of familiarity meaning you should try to see the compound more in the wild (Facebook, etc).
I can't say more concerning a method as I'm really biaised because Heisig worked a lot for me (more or less every kanji had a vivid and unique visual imaginative story): 結/絡 I called these tie and braid, 格/絡 status and braid, you know, they have a different arrangement of primitives (hence a different story), different meanings (and later on different readings), it's hard to confuse them if you take your time when you learn them and when you decipher them. Speed shouldn't be your primary concern. If a problem arises, breath, analyze it, and sort it out.

yogert909 Wrote:Maybe there's something I'm missing, but I don't see how gaiaslastlaugh's method is any different than "brute forcing vocab through anki" paired with some writing practice. Of course there's something to be said about a targeted vocabulary list. But I don't see how the pre-study with midori flashcards is any different than studying with anki flashcards outright.

The way I understand it, he's just saying you shouldn't learn using Anki, just use it to remember things you've already learned. It's a claim that is often made.

EratiK Wrote:

yogert909 Wrote:Maybe there's something I'm missing, but I don't see how gaiaslastlaugh's method is any different than "brute forcing vocab through anki" paired with some writing practice. Of course there's something to be said about a targeted vocabulary list. But I don't see how the pre-study with midori flashcards is any different than studying with anki flashcards outright.

The way I understand it, he's just saying you shouldn't learn using Anki, just use it to remember things you've already learned. It's a claim that is often made.

I've heard this argument enough that I have to think there's something to it, but it's never made sense to me as explained. If you've already learned something, how did you learn it? Presumably you learned by periodic study of some sort (reading, paper flashcards, electronic flashcards...). If you're going to use another flashcard program or paper flashcards to learn, I don't see what's to be gained over just sticking with one flashcard app. On the other hand, if you are going to learn new vocabulary by randomly coming across them in your reading, that might be more enjoyable, but probably not more efficient time-wise as learning via an SRS program.

Specifically, gaiaslastlaugh's method if I understand it correctly consists of 3 steps - flashcards(midori), writing, and more flashcards(anki). While I can see that they writing step has something to bring to the party, I don't see how the first flashcard step could possibly be any better just because it's midori and not anki. Not that I want to say that anki is better then any other app. Rather the opposite - that anki is just another flashcard app and there's not much better or worse than any other flashcard app(or paper flashcards) aside from a specific feature set and algorithm.

I understand the argument that you shouldn't rely completely on an srs for learning complex subjects like physics or international law where facts are only a small part of understanding. You need a lot of background and explanation for those subjects. But learning a language such as japanese, the majority of the work is in learning vocabulary and kanji. Of course other techniques could me more enjoyable, but I don't see that an srs could be less efficient than any other technique for learning vocab and kanji.

I hope I'm not coming across as argumentative, it's not my intention. I just keep hearing this argument and I don't understand it. Nothing would please me more than understanding what's so wrong with srs as a learning tool.

When I first switched to reviewing kanji -> meaning, I was immediately struck by how bad I was at distinguishing similar-looking kanji by sight. Reviewing kanji -> meaning fixed that completely.

Failing to recognise core words 'in the wild' used to bother me enormously back when I still thought SRS was some kind of magic bullet, but now it happens so often that it has become easy to accept as a natural part of the process.

As you read more and more, the common words get drilled in deeper and deeper, and start to pull in other words with them. Encountering a slightly unfamiliar word in a sea of familiar words has a much stronger reinforcing effect than an Anki review.

Anki provides very little comprehension practice. Once you've seen a card more than a couple of times, your 'comprehension circuitry' gets bypassed by what you remember about the card, because in the early stages that's a lot easier than decoding the semantics. This makes a lot of the sentences quite bad for learning the meaning of the words, because they often contain difficulties that confound comprehension of the Japanese & encourage reliance on the English translation.

The core decks are also *very bad* for learning to disambiguate confusing kanji/readings. Distractors are best learned together, so you can compare them directly & figure out some way to distinguish them, but the core decks don't (can't) take such things into account - you have to puzzle things out for yourself.

For example, one annoyance I had was with 破. For some reason I got it into my head that it was read ひ on one of the cards, so every time it came up I would think, "Maybe this is the card where it was read ひ". ひ. Wrong. DAMMIT!!

After putting up with this for far too long I finally bothered to look up 破, only to discover that its sole on-reading is は. I must have been confusing it with 皮 or something.

I also had a problem with よう and ゆう readings, regardless of the kanji. For example, I used to get 遊園地 and 幼稚園 hopelessly mixed up until I went looking for other words that use the same kanji, and using よちよち to remember 幼稚, etc.

These and *many* more examples are all part of the learning process. The thing to do is go in and fix them with a bit of looking up / mnemonic play etc instead of hoping they will sort themselves out by magic, because unfortunately they probably won't.

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THANK YOU ALL! I feel all your suggestions will be very useful to me. I think I got too far with this thing to learn the more vocab I could and I put too much on anki without learning it well first. In fact the words I remember more are those learned by "side effect" while studying grammar because I read them so many time and I think genki gives good and clear context.
Another thing that bother me the most are kanji with more than one reading... like ga in eiga (sorry for romaji)... maybe I was neglecting listening too much... for example the word "doubutsu" sticked only the day I ear it on japanesepod101. Also words like happypu (announcement) or akushu (hand shake), they sticked only because I see them in meaningful context (kawaii idols blogs lol)... also I hate some of core sentences, for example in kunyomi words where a kanji could be read ib rwo ways and you can not infer it from okurigana... like hou/kata or a/hira...
So I'll try to put more effort on internalizing things first, mostly with audio and only then add the word on anki... and use the rest of my time on LR simple things like jpod101, lingq podcast, songs etc.. I feel to comunicate I don't need tons of vocabs in a couple of months... maybe I won't be able to read novels like a native until a couple of years but what's the oroblem? This is not a race and it's meaningless if it bring only to burnout... so I'll maintain what I already have on core, but stop learning new words with it and suspend word that keep me frustrated... I'll do a kanji deck recognition style and go slowly with it and concentrate more on listening/internalizing the language and on lang-8...

Thank you all for your support, I appreciate it very much... I'm happy to have decided to study japanese also because I've know this community

Arupan Wrote:I've always wondered, why does everyone assume that Anki is good for remembering things (/words) anyways? Same for reading. I don't think just reading a lot will somehow magically boost your ability. Actually doing stuff with the language is way more satisfying and productive in my experience.

In my opinion, some kind of a flashcard system is best for remembering things. When first starting out learning a language, you don't know enough words to actually do stuff in the language. When you get more of a vocabulary base, unknown words don't pop up often enough to learn them efficiently. Any decent srs reinforces the information at logical intervals that you just won't get from random exposure. Even if I were to be inclined to increase my vocabulary in my 1st language, I'd probably get a GRE anki deck and supplement that with mined words from my reading. It would be just so much easier that way.

Of course SRS can get pretty dull sometimes, but that's another consideration.

Lol happyaku, I cleared a part of the word for mistake

yogert909 Wrote:

Arupan Wrote:I've always wondered, why does everyone assume that Anki is good for remembering things (/words) anyways? Same for reading. I don't think just reading a lot will somehow magically boost your ability. Actually doing stuff with the language is way more satisfying and productive in my experience.

In my opinion, some kind of a flashcard system is best for remembering things. When first starting out learning a language, you don't know enough words to actually do stuff in the language. When you get more of a vocabulary base, unknown words don't pop up often enough to learn them efficiently. Any decent srs reinforces the information at logical intervals that you just won't get from random exposure. Even if I were to be inclined to increase my vocabulary in my 1st language, I'd probably get a GRE anki deck and supplement that with mined words from my reading. It would be just so much easier that way.

Of course SRS can get pretty dull sometimes, but that's another consideration.

In fact it works wonders for grammar and words I put myself after having learned them outside of anki... also with rtk, I just realized I still rember all the stories! But after this I lost my pace and began to add words I don't know with kanji I don't know well.. I just drilled them the day before and then unsuspendes them on anki even when by the drilling stage it was obvious I didn't knew those words... I don't say it doesn't works, I learned many words this way and I think srs is a genial idea, so if one can bear it I'm the first,to say do it, it works... the fact it failed for me doesn't bring me to hate anki and put hate on it how sometimes I see xD I just say it's frustrating for me but the fact I don't want to abandon it is the proof even I recognize its usefulness! Man Anki is great xD is my study method that sucks xD I'll put tings in perspective and do it at my own pace... I know I cannot go to japan for now so I have a couple of years to works on it xD
Sorry for the long post and if I don't reply to all but I'm on mobile and my cell sucks xD

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Hey Cophnia,

Everyone else has given you good advice, so instead of that, I wanted to say I also deal with depression and find myself frustrated with studying at times. I finished RTK a month or so ago, and I've moved onto the second volume. I'm still studying flashcards on this site, and along with learning new onyomi and reviewing old vocabulary every day, I sometimes feel overwhelmed.

Last week, I scored somewhere around 80% on a flashcard review, and I wanted to tear my hair out. That's only happened to me twice, and it deeply, irrationally upset me. But if I want to learn to read Japanese, I have to move on. We will all make mistakes and hit roadblocks along the way. Take failing as an opportunity to refresh yourself on what you already know.

Even if you can't remember the answer before you flip the flashcard, if you recognize it afterward, you know it. It's somewhere in your brain. Learning a language takes time and dedication, and you’re giving it that. No one is grading you except yourself, and if you take those perceived failures as opportunities to learn, you will do just that. That’s how I stop being mad at myself, anyway.

Anyway, by the sound of it, you’re doing great. Don’t get discouraged, and know you’re not alone.

Thank you very much from the bottom of my heart... Thank to this community I feel not alone, those days I'm a little discouraged because of other things and maybe this is reflecting in my will to study japanese... Also I have a fever and I'm not getting enough sleep so I will let some time pass doing only reps and I'll see in a couple of days...

TurtleBear, you're studying vocabs while you do/did RtK? Or you did all rtk1 first and only then you do vocabs?