Holy crap - someone actually reads my blog. Maybe I should, you know, post there once in a while. :-|

(Ooooh, and the images on that post didn't survive the conversion to Octopress, either. Dammit...)

yogert909 Wrote:

EratiK Wrote:

yogert909 Wrote:Maybe there's something I'm missing, but I don't see how gaiaslastlaugh's method is any different than "brute forcing vocab through anki" paired with some writing practice. Of course there's something to be said about a targeted vocabulary list. But I don't see how the pre-study with midori flashcards is any different than studying with anki flashcards outright.

The way I understand it, he's just saying you shouldn't learn using Anki, just use it to remember things you've already learned. It's a claim that is often made.

I've heard this argument enough that I have to think there's something to it, but it's never made sense to me as explained. If you've already learned something, how did you learn it? Presumably you learned by periodic study of some sort (reading, paper flashcards, electronic flashcards...). If you're going to use another flashcard program or paper flashcards to learn, I don't see what's to be gained over just sticking with one flashcard app. On the other hand, if you are going to learn new vocabulary by randomly coming across them in your reading, that might be more enjoyable, but probably not more efficient time-wise as learning via an SRS program.

Specifically, gaiaslastlaugh's method if I understand it correctly consists of 3 steps - flashcards(midori), writing, and more flashcards(anki). While I can see that they writing step has something to bring to the party, I don't see how the first flashcard step could possibly be any better just because it's midori and not anki. Not that I want to say that anki is better then any other app. Rather the opposite - that anki is just another flashcard app and there's not much better or worse than any other flashcard app(or paper flashcards) aside from a specific feature set and algorithm.

It's a matter of (1) pressure and (2) time.

First, since there's no pass/fail in Midori and no metrics, there's no perceived psychological penalty for getting things wrong. It's a more comfortable environment in which to study and become familiar with the words.

Second, when I use Midori, I actually *study* the words. I write them often - either on paper, or at least in the air. I think to myself, "How would I use that in a sentence, again?", and I go searching the Web for usage examples. Not for all words, but some. If I find particularly interesting sentences, I may save them aside and add them to my Anki deck when I import the words.

That said, I sometimes get too busy and just brute-force my way through 100+ words in Anki. When I do that, I make sure that, at the end of a day, I create a quick study deck containing the words I failed over the last three days, and I study them as I would study them if they were in Midori.

FWIW, all of the other advice here is also great. It's fine to stop adding cards to ensure that you truly know the ones currently in your deck. And it's fine to take large breaks from Anki. Like rich_f said, Anki should be there to supplement your Japanese learning, especially as you hit intermediate and advanced levels, where the bulk of your study time should be on reading and listening to interesting things.

Even when I was just beginning in Japanese, I tried to keep my Anki time to a minimum, and instead spends more time working on fun projects, such as working my way through a 昔話, or trying to read a simple manga. So I agree with everyone else - ditch Anki for a while if it's stressing you out and do something fun.

Now if you'll pardon me, I'm off to the holiday market in downtown Luxembourg City for some gluhwein. Mmmm, gluhwein...

cophnia61 Wrote:Hi all, sorry to write this here but I need some help... I feel I'm burned out of japanese study... not japanese itself, but studying it... and I feel great part of the responsability is anki, I cannot keep it anymore... I feel greatly deprexed for this and other reasons, so the only thought to do anki reps makes me feel really bad... I don't know what to do, I've put so much effort in those six months but I see how much there is still to learn, not to talk about all the things I'm forgetting... I don't know, today I failed to recognize 返す, and yesterday I read 借 as 昔... I have a feeling of fear to get in touch with japanese, as I see something japanese on facebook I close it because I fear to see something I'm supposed to know and I don't recognize... I'm so sad

Have you finished RTK1 yet?

I don't blame you about feeling that anki is responsible. I've tried to force myself to use it and I think it's a horrible thing.

What I'm doing to learn vocabulary is follow the old advice of "read, read, and read some more". I'm constantly reading.

Before tackling a reading passage I make a list of new vocabulary and print out the list and study it for a few days and then the reading passage is a breeze.

The vocabulary list consists of: the kanji, the romaji transcription, the meaning in English, and the RTK1 keywords. I input new vocabulary into a Microsoft Access database and then run queries to generate my lists.

I read the same passage over and over until I've assimilated everything. Reading out loud helps too.

I don't use anki to learn the vocabulary. Anki just isn't "me".

Don't be discouraged by not understanding stuff on facebook. Use readers specifically intended for beginners. Don't bother with magazines at this stage because they're too full of slangy type language.

cophnia61 Wrote:but the core deck is like 160 reps today... I cannot keep it anymore

hey you're having a better month than me then


(thanksgiving day you are my great shame)

john555 Wrote:Before tackling a reading passage I make a list of new vocabulary and print out the list and study it for a few days and then the reading passage is a breeze.

The vocabulary list consists of: the kanji, the romaji transcription, the meaning in English, and the RTK1 keywords. I input new vocabulary into a Microsoft Access database and then run queries to generate my lists.

I read the same passage over and over until I've assimilated everything. Reading out loud helps too.

This. This is brilliant. I'm working on a web app to do this on a mass scale. It's computerized to make the list generation automatic, to provide cross-references into past readings, and provide a light SRS component to practice the vocab you've learned with clozed-deletions. But reading your description, I see the value in making the SRS component optional (very light), and making the list generation optionally more hands-on.

Yes, I've done RtK, started nine months ago and ended six months ago but from that moment I've forgotten many kanji, especially those for which I don't know many words... Now I'm doing RtK another time but it's way easier, most of the stories are already written, and I'm doing kanji to keyword... But I've this fear, maybe irrational, of forgetting everything another time... I don't know what to do beside RtK, above all I wonder if Anki by itsel will be enough to maintain what I'm studying without reading much, because it's a period I cannot concentrate on anything, I'm also thinking about seeking "pharmacological support"... sorry to say this here, I know I'm just a fellow behind a monitor somewere... sigh :'(

cophnia61 Wrote:Thank you very much from the bottom of my heart... Thank to this community I feel not alone, those days I'm a little discouraged because of other things and maybe this is reflecting in my will to study japanese... Also I have a fever and I'm not getting enough sleep so I will let some time pass doing only reps and I'll see in a couple of days...

TurtleBear, you're studying vocabs while you do/did RtK? Or you did all rtk1 first and only then you do vocabs?

I've learned and reviewed all kanji from RTK 5-6 times, so I guess you could say I'm "finished". But I still do SRS daily and review kanji to keyword from the index quite often. Along with that, I'm learning an average of thirty vocab words a day from RTK volume two. Since I can't find a good deck for volume two, I just study the traditional way—from the book. Since I'm too lazy to come up with a study schedule, I just review 500 words a day, lol.

Oh, and I already learned the basics of grammar from school, so I'm focusing all my attention on learning to read like an adult.

aldebrn Wrote:

john555 Wrote:Before tackling a reading passage I make a list of new vocabulary and print out the list and study it for a few days and then the reading passage is a breeze.

The vocabulary list consists of: the kanji, the romaji transcription, the meaning in English, and the RTK1 keywords. I input new vocabulary into a Microsoft Access database and then run queries to generate my lists.

I read the same passage over and over until I've assimilated everything. Reading out loud helps too.

This. This is brilliant. I'm working on a web app to do this on a mass scale. It's computerized to make the list generation automatic, to provide cross-references into past readings, and provide a light SRS component to practice the vocab you've learned with clozed-deletions. But reading your description, I see the value in making the SRS component optional (very light), and making the list generation optionally more hands-on.

In case anyone's curious, here's some screenshots of my Access database:

1) Partial vocabulary list for Lesson 31:

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv346...rylist.jpg


2) Readings for the kanji for "place (tokoro)" encountered so far, in the first position, the middle, or the end. This query result is a bit sloppy and there's some duplication, but it serves the purpose for me. It shows that in what I've studied, the kanji "tokoro" appears only independently, in second place, or in third place:

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv346...adings.jpg


3) This is a query where I ask for a list of all the compounds studied so far where one of the kanji is pronounced "sei":

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv346...ry-sei.jpg

john555 Wrote:3) This is a query where I ask for a list of all the compounds studied so far where one of the kanji is pronounced "sei":

経政 economics

I've only seen 経済 for that.

anotherjohn Wrote:

john555 Wrote:3) This is a query where I ask for a list of all the compounds studied so far where one of the kanji is pronounced "sei":

経政 economics

I've only seen 経済 for that.

it might be that he meant to do 政経 which is an abbreviation of 政治・経済 but that's more like "political economy"

yeah 経政 is really read つねまさ and is the name of a noh play based on a guy from history :V

If the Core deck is killing you but the self-mined deck is going well ... isn't what to do obvious? Delete Core and go mine some sentences already!

It really doesn't matter what you do so long as you are a) learning a reasonable number of words, and b) continuing to do so every day. If Core being painful is getting in the way of your (b), ditch it.

Aikynaro Wrote:If the Core deck is killing you but the self-mined deck is going well ... isn't what to do obvious? Delete Core and go mine some sentences already!

It really doesn't matter what you do so long as you are a) learning a reasonable number of words, and b) continuing to do so every day. If Core being painful is getting in the way of your (b), ditch it.

This.

I'll try this way after this bad period will be gone, I hope it will be soon... in the meanwhile, thank you all very much!

Sauzer Wrote:

anotherjohn Wrote:

john555 Wrote:3) This is a query where I ask for a list of all the compounds studied so far where one of the kanji is pronounced "sei":

経政 economics

I've only seen 経済 for that.

it might be that he meant to do 政経 which is an abbreviation of 政治・経済 but that's more like "political economy"

yeah 経政 is really read つねまさ and is the name of a noh play based on a guy from history :V

Thanks, you're right. I went back and checked where I got the word "economics" in my reader and I accidentally input the wrong kanji for the second element (I used the second kanji from the word below it). Thanks for pointing that out.

The other day I realized that I use Anki on most days and haven't been questioning how much progress I've made. I try not to worry about how bad I am at Japanese. But if I were to question how much I didn't understand I'd become depressed, because I've put in a lot of effort to get where I am today (every moment brings us to the next moment, so right now, I am here, noww - I suck). Anyhow, I pop open anki and try not to think about my progress, and get on with my day and whenever I can I try to find amusing media, preferably in Japanese. But I don't think about whether or not what I'm doing right now is Japanese enough for my future Japanesey self, or if I'm good enough our if it's making me better at Japanese. (But I do try to learn words, understand what I can.. accept what I can't.. and push up the fun meter by, well, experiencing enjoyable Japanese media, or trying to find humor in everything)

To spice it up, find what you enjoy and add that into your whole Japanese-study experience. If a perfect method existed, it would be functional and maintainable for you and would be secondary to your enjoyment in the language.

Arupan Wrote:I don't think using any kind of software is that useful when learning new words, especially in the early stages.

I think I understand why you think this, and while I'd agree for simplistic software, I wholeheartedly disagree.

When I study vocab, I use vn2srs / subs2srs sentences and have MorphMan constantly resort the order new cards show up in so that I'm not only doing sentences that have only 1 new word to learn, but also happen to have other words I've recently learned (ie. seen but not yet mature) to better reinforce alternate meanings and nuances that aren't always clear from the dictionary + 1 example sentence.

Also, when doing initial learning, I can hit a button to see a number of alternative sentences (all from vn2srs/subs2srs) that I could learn instead that teach the same word, in case I'd prefer a different context or merely want to watch clips of all those alternatives.

Aikynaro Wrote:If the Core deck is killing you but the self-mined deck is going well ... isn't what to do obvious? Delete Core and go mine some sentences already!

Before you delete it, tag cards in your mined sentences deck that have the words you knew from Core.

1) Use MorphMan to Extract Morphemes for all Core cards you know, call it coreLearnt.db
2) Use Mass Tagger to tag all your mined sentence cards that contain words from coreLearnt.db

If you actually want to let MorphMan handle ordering your sentence cards, you can even use the priority.db feature to make it prioritize all the words you learned from Core first.


But the most important thing is delete any deck that isn't fun.

.