A bit late to ask this for tomorrow's lesson (I was distracted by finals and paper deadlines), but just in case, I'll ask if anyone can give advice on how to get the most out of a live tutoring session (as opposed to online private or group lessons).
General advice on getting tutoring is welcome too, I've never actually been taught outside of a group environment (except from family), so I'm still unsure of exactly how to use the lesson time; though I think I'd get an idea on my own after a while, I'd rather do things as efficiently as possible.

In case I rambled too much (likely), my questions as points:
- How do I get tutored effectively?
- Any recommendations specific to live or remote tutoring?

I'm surprised you didn't get a response. I've thought about getting more from my tutoring sessions too. In general, it turns out to be more of a conversation practice session than anything else. I mostly do small class sessions where the teacher has some power point slides setup to have us practice doing a few grammar points. And we try to get some conversation in. It's with a up to 4 other students or so. My one on one sessions I get a lot more conversation but these sessions the teacher doesn't prepare a lesson so we do random stuff like read NHK news or Harry Potter or a script from an anime or maybe a do some exercises out of a textbook. It would help if I prepared before my lesson but in general I do not for whatever reason.

I think the best lessons are when we talk more as opposed to me just reading and the tutor correcting me. I have yet to really figure out how to make them the best possible however, mostly because I don't prepare at all for them.

Admittedly, I don't have a great deal of experience with this at the advanced level in Japanese--I've done it at the beginner level in Japanese and the advanced level in Korean though, and have found that I learned the most when I was forced to move out of my comfort zone and had to really strain to express myself or keep up.

For me, this would entail conversation or debate practice that goes beyond free talking and focuses on a particular topic that is a bit challenging--and would probably work best with some preparation, say, studying relevant vocabulary and grammar beforehand. Back-and-forth role playing can also be very helpful as it allows you to explore speaking in different situations that will round out your language ability, and having your tutor go over your writing (a journal or something) with you and explaining why certain forms are used can help if you follow up on it by reviewing or re-writing the journal.

I like reading passages out loud with a tutor for a few minutes to get help with my pronunciation, but beyond that, I can just read the passages aloud on my own at home. And I personally have not found it effective to learn grammar through tutoring because it just doesn't stick and it eats up a lot of time, though it is great to get a native speaker's explanation of a grammar point I've already studied or encountered elsewhere.

Hope this helps some. I'm no expert and even started a similar topic to this one a while back, but these are the types of activities that have worked for me. Good luck.

What weatherman said is very true. I learned the most when I was out of my comfort zone and had to try HARD to keep up. That happened when I was new to online tutoring. JOI, where I do my lessons, I've found that the tutors have a set vocabulary and expressions that they tend to use with the students. I didn't know that before signing up and well it's just different than in my class I took at school. Also, I hadn't been forced to go all japanese before. So I think my Japanese improved the most during the first few months I did the lessons. Now it's easy for tutors to talk to me and grade their language and I think they're lazy so they do so rather than killing me with new grammar and vocab. I suppose I could make them do so but heh..

Thank you both for your experience. The first lesson went about as I expected, introductions, getting a feel for each other. Since we mostly only decided that it'd be good for her to give me homework to work on between lessons, I will take your suggestions into consideration for the actual lesson time. Maybe try to discuss what I've been working on in Japanese while getting pointers. The first few times will almost definitely be difficult, but everyone seems to find that they improve the most in that time, so I'll do my best.

Where do your guys get your tutoring (assuming it's online)? I know there's italki, but anything else recommended?

I haven't used it (am thinking about starting), but I found http://www.japonin.com recommended on here.

weatherman Wrote:I haven't used it (am thinking about starting), but I found http://www.japonin.com recommended on here.

I'm going to start using this place in a couple weeks (on top of live tutoring sessions), if that means anything; I've heard good things.

TheVinster Wrote:Where do your guys get your tutoring (assuming it's online)? I know there's italki, but anything else recommended?

I recently started using Japanese Online Institute (aka JOI): http://www.japonin.com/. I'm a fan. I like them so much that I decided to stop taking in-person lessons next term and try using just use them instead.

In addition to finding the lessons extremely effective, they're also dirt cheap - the initial trial is US $9 for 3 one-hour lessons. Since I work, I think that the flexible schedule will also work a lot better for me as well.

I'm in the lower-intermediate track and they basically chopped up the content of Minna No Nihongo Intermediate 1 and an N3 grammar book into 100+ individual lessons. Each class covers a handful of the points. There are hundreds of classes offered a week, and you can see the lesson plans of each class before you sign up.

The classes are "on rails". You download software and go thru the slides with the teacher and a small group. In addition to the grammar points they introduce some vocab and then you do reading, listening and speaking drills around the grammar and vocab. Everyone gets a turn to do a drill.

Basically, I feel like I'm being spoon-fed the language - it's that effective.

It may not be for everyone, but it works really well for me.

Thanks to your recommendations I think I'll give Japonin a shot. $9 for 3 50-minute lessons is quite cheap I admit. I'll try an intermediate class then potentially change to advanced or stay at intermediate depending on how it goes. Have you guys noticed a self-improvement in your proficiency or confidence after several lessons?

Took my first Japonin lesson and it was just me and the instructor, so there was some small talk but still focused on the agenda. I would say it went quite well. It was with Kaori Ishibashi and she seemed patient and helpful, maybe since I was the only one there. Either way I have 2 more classes for Tuesday and Thursday after work. Would like to get into a conversation class but for now grammar and such are fine, because even though I may read and understand the grammar I don't necessarily know how to use it. So yeah overall good and will keep taking them. Definitely much better than repeating the same process of talking about your hobbies to Japanese people you've just met, over and over again.

TheVinster Wrote:Took my first Japonin lesson and it was just me and the instructor, so there was some small talk but still focused on the agenda. I would say it went quite well. It was with Kaori Ishibashi and she seemed patient and helpful, maybe since I was the only one there. Either way I have 2 more classes for Tuesday and Thursday after work. Would like to get into a conversation class but for now grammar and such are fine, because even though I may read and understand the grammar I don't necessarily know how to use it. So yeah overall good and will keep taking them. Definitely much better than repeating the same process of talking about your hobbies to Japanese people you've just met, over and over again.

Glad it went well for you! I have a lesson tonight. Yeah, I hear you about getting frustrated with the same old small-talk, self-introduction with Japanese people. The moments when I can get past that with someone into a more interesting conversation are few and far between, but a heck of a lot of fun when they happen!

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TheVinster Wrote:Would like to get into a conversation class but for now grammar and such are fine, because even though I may read and understand the grammar I don't necessarily know how to use it.

I think many people who go down the reading/listening route end up at the same point.

I've recently signed up to Japonin to use those $9 lessons too. I've had a couple of sessions on iTalki, but plan on using Japonin until the "iTalki challenge" begins later this month (http://www.italki.com/languagechallenge).

Quote:I think the best lessons are when we talk more as opposed to me just reading and the tutor correcting me. I have yet to really figure out how to make them the best possible however, mostly because I don't prepare at all for them.

My first lessons on iTalki were similar to this. The lessons started with a little small talk before moving on to a Q&A style using textbooks that I've previously self-studied (yes back to Genki 1!) I found it worth going over the basics with a native to be very useful with pronunciation.

If your looking to go beyond pleasantries some of the teachers offer lessons that include reading an article and talking about it. NHK Easy would be a good starting point for doing this.

[RawToast]

TheVinster Wrote:Took my first Japonin lesson and it was just me and the instructor, so there was some small talk but still focused on the agenda. I would say it went quite well. It was with Kaori Ishibashi and she seemed patient and helpful, maybe since I was the only one there. Either way I have 2 more classes for Tuesday and Thursday after work. Would like to get into a conversation class but for now grammar and such are fine, because even though I may read and understand the grammar I don't necessarily know how to use it. So yeah overall good and will keep taking them. Definitely much better than repeating the same process of talking about your hobbies to Japanese people you've just met, over and over again.

I finally got round to using my trial lesson. I had no idea what to expect (and a new webcam for audio...) so picked a Beginner 1 class to get to grips with the structure and because this is has been the first month of active speaking. I was the only student and I managed to have a short conversation with the tutor before and afterwards -- which was the best part of the lesson as the material was very easy!

I had a second lesson yesterday with 2 other students. I jumped up to Beginner 2, which I think covers material from Minna No Nihongo 2. There was a huge leap in the rate at which the tutor spoke, so beware of jumping up levels if your not comfortable! Essentially in Beginner 1 the tutor spoke very slowly, whilst in Beginner 2 the rate was similar to the sentences in the core cards. similar tot Again the lesson starts with a short self introduction. Listen closely to the other students --regardless of their ability -- as the tutor may ask you something about the other student's response!

The tutor for the second lesson was Kitano Megumi. With this teacher the lessons deviated somewhat from the slides into miniature conversions about the student's answers -- I found this to be very good practice.

If I hadn't dumped all my spare cash into italki for the 20 hour challenge, I would be using Japonin for speaking practice.

Quote:I like them so much that I decided to stop taking in-person lessons next term and try using just use them instead.

If I hadn't paid ~£300/$500 for my year of night classes, I'd be dumping my classes too.

I'm going to be signing up for the trial lessons at http://www.japonin.com/ and on the registration form there's a place to enter the name of a referral. If you refer someone and they continue taking lessons beyond the trial period you receive three free lessons yourself.

If you're currently taking lessons and would like for me to enter you as a referral when I register, please send me either your JOI username or your full name in an email using the link <---- over there. There's only room for one name on the form so first come, first serve.

Thanks Ari!

You can go two ways with tutoring. The first is to find a tutor (such as a community tutor on iTalki), bring one or two small articles to read, and use them as conversation starters. The second is to hire one of the professional tutors on a service such as iTalki who has their own material (JLPT study prep, conversation scenario books, etc.). The latter are great if you're busy and don't want to spend time hunting down materials for your own lessons.

In both cases, I'd suggest cycling through a number of tutors until you find several with whom you have a good rapport and who are good at asking questions to verify that you understood the content. And when I say questions, I don't mean 分かりましたか?, but specific questions about the contents that require specific answers. Find tutors who will go beyond the basics, and who will engage you in your opinion on the current subject.

Finally, find a tutor who's not afraid to pull you out of your comfort zone. My favorite tutoring sessions are those that go off on unexpected tangents. E.g., we start talking about cherry blossom season, and somehow end up talking about the differences between the US and Japanese tax systems. Those conversations are hard, but that's because I'm being forced to push my speaking ability past its current limits.

I wish japonin had more options for advanced lessons. The only time available on weekends is 8AM in America. I wake up fairly early on the weekends but not quite that early. By the way has anybody ever been in a lesson with someone called "kitty"? She is honestly the weirdest sounding person I've ever heard.

gaiaslastlaugh Wrote:Finally, find a tutor who's not afraid to pull you out of your comfort zone. My favorite tutoring sessions are those that go off on unexpected tangents. E.g., we start talking about cherry blossom season, and somehow end up talking about the differences between the US and Japanese tax systems. Those conversations are hard, but that's because I'm being forced to push my speaking ability past its current limits.

Yeah, I have a tutor I work with once a week, and basically she asks me "How does X work?" or "What do you think about Y?" and it's generally something totally out of left field. I've gotten pretty good at answering those. Even when I'm having a "bad Japanese day," I can make myself understood.

I've been thinking about adding more online studying on top of my current 1 hour a week. I've done a lot of JOI classes, and while I think they're fine, the no homework thing doesn't work well for me. There's no way to go off and do a bunch of practice work using the grammar I just learned, and then check up with a teacher on it. (And then re-test it a few weeks later.) That's what seems to work best for me.

So I'm tempted to look around on iTalki a bit, and see if someone can teach me a little like that-- go over some grammar, vocab, readings, give me some assignments, check my understanding, and move on to the next bit. That way I only cover the stuff I really don't know, and can skip whatever it is I understand already.

rich_f Wrote:I've been thinking about adding more online studying on top of my current 1 hour a week. I've done a lot of JOI classes, and while I think they're fine, the no homework thing doesn't work well for me. There's no way to go off and do a bunch of practice work using the grammar I just learned, and then check up with a teacher on it. (And then re-test it a few weeks later.) That's what seems to work best for me.

I hear you about that. I'll share the way I worked around that just in case it's any help for you. For reference, I'm taking their N3 grammar/sentence structure classes. They give the lesson plan before and afterwards along with some examples. E.g.:

〜というより〜
"~ is more like ~ than ~"
彼は友達というよりライバルです。
"he is more like a rival than a friend"

Then I go onto lang-8 and write a bunch of example sentences myself and get corrections from native speakers. I select the best ones and add them to anki. I found that this helps me "make the grammar point my own" and reinforce it.

Please update this thread if you can find some online lessons that give tests and homework like you describe.

ariariari Wrote:彼は友達というよりライバルです。
"he is more like a friend than a rival"

"he is more like a rival than a friend"

anotherjohn Wrote:

ariariari Wrote:彼は友達というよりライバルです。
"he is more like a friend than a rival"

"he is more like a rival than a friend"

Updated. Thanks for pointing out the mistake!

Ah yeah, Lang-8 is definitely a viable option for that. I keep forgetting about it!

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rich_f Wrote:I've done a lot of JOI classes, and while I think they're fine, the no homework thing doesn't work well for me. There's no way to go off and do a bunch of practice work using the grammar I just learned, and then check up with a teacher on it. (And then re-test it a few weeks later.) That's what seems to work best for me.

Like as ariariari said the tutors give a lesson plan and afterwards they also send a list of the sentences used in the lesson. You could always add the sentences to Anki and practice them as either production or recognition (or use Lang-8).

You can simply ask your iTalki teacher to give you some homework. I have one tutor asking me to complete sections of the Genki workbook (ahh my terrible handwriting!) and another asks me to write short essays which she checks and then we can use them for conversation practice in the lesson.


I am really into italki recently, so far I've completed 10 hours of lesson for the challenge -- and have my second lesson of the day in 25 minutes! Is anyone else here taking part in the 20 hour challenge?

RawToast Wrote:I am really into italki recently, so far I've completed 10 hours of lesson for the challenge -- and have my second lesson of the day in 25 minutes! Is anyone else here taking part in the 20 hour challenge?

Yep I'm heavily back loaded though - only eight hours finished so far, with another lesson tonight and then the remaining 11 (eep) scheduled from now until end of month.

gaiaslastlaugh Wrote:

RawToast Wrote:I am really into italki recently, so far I've completed 10 hours of lesson for the challenge -- and have my second lesson of the day in 25 minutes! Is anyone else here taking part in the 20 hour challenge?

Yep I'm heavily back loaded though - only eight hours finished so far, with another lesson tonight and then the remaining 11 (eep) scheduled from now until end of month.

How the hell do you people afford all this tutoring? I can sorta understand Japonin, but italki, depending on the tutor, can become a hefty amount. To some extent I want to use italki because I'm not the biggest fan of learning in a group. Obviously you have to pay more for private tutoring, but man... And the times on Japonin aren't really great when it comes to advanced courses.