Vempele Wrote:

cophnia61 Wrote:Another thing... do you make one story for everything, or two separate stories for meaning and reading?
What when a kanji has two common onyomi, like 正 or 直?

I don't use mnemonics, but I remember ちょく for being similar to the signaled しょく (actually more the other way around), and 正 for being one of multiple primitives that signal both せい and しょう (青 and 生 being the others). Also, I only learned just now that じか and じき aren't kun'yomi - they never appear in compounds.

I think 正直 is readed しょうじき, but maybe this is the only compound where it is used I don't know xD I know the word from "shoujiki shougi", a game they do on "AKBingo" xD

Vempele, but how do you do for kanji without signal primitives? Or for kanji where there is a signal primitive but they don't use its onyomi (I think it's called the mixed group in RtK. 2)?

Sincerely I've tried to read RtK. 2 but I don't understand very well how does it works... I still don't understand how many common onyomi are not covered by signal primitives... there is a simple answer to this question?

BTW Thank you Vempele for your help as allways!

Oops. I guess I just learned that one as a one-off exception (for both kanji - しょう is rare for 正). Or, more likely, I learned it long before I even knew about phonetic primitives.

Quote:Vempele, but how do you do for kanji without signal primitives? Or for kanji where there is a signal primitive but they don't use its onyomi (I think it's called the mixed group in RtK. 2)?

At first, I just read VNs with a furiganizer. I must have learned a couple thousand words with no SRS other than RTK. Then I came across the phonetic primitives article on Tofugu and memorized those (tip: don't do that. There are mistakes on that list). A few weeks later I started memorizing single on'yomi (looking for potential patterns by looking at the list the IME gave for the reading) and words a week after. I still sometimes add words I "should" know how to read but don't actually immediately recall the correct reading.

Most of the readings appearing in RTK2 chapters 6 and 8 ("everyday words" and "useful compounds") are probably common and non-signaled (~500 words, some of which teach you about both kanji), though some of them contain (or are) signal primitives in the context of RTK3 and wider. 9 and 10 are for the less common and/or oddball readings (~450 words).

Depends on what you consider common, really.

I have a special deck that groups kanji without clear signal primitives, but that either feature visual simmilarities, or have related meanings. It's still incomplete but for N1 it gets the work done. Is there a kanji without a signal primitive that is troubling you? I might have it in my deck.

Yes, RTK2 can be tricky to figure out how to use. It took me a while, too. For me, I really appreciated the pure and mixed groups, because I found seeing the patterns and having them reinforced right there and then was really helpful. I felt like I had some solid land instead of being lost in a sea of what felt like hundreds of onyomis. I must admit, I lost motivation to do the kunyomis Heisigs way. I should try that over the summer, really, though xmas and moving will mean I might not have as much time to devote to making a deck as I would like.

What I would really love is for this site to somehow have a systematic SRS for the readings, I feel like the current labs one isn't really useful for me, but I much prefer this site to anki. Anki takes a lot more getting used to, I've found, but perhaps that's because I know next to nothing about programming, so anki automatically feels very opaque to me.

ktcgx Wrote:Yes, RTK2 can be tricky to figure out how to use. It took me a while, too. For me, I really appreciated the pure and mixed groups, because I found seeing the patterns and having them reinforced right there and then was really helpful. I felt like I had some solid land instead of being lost in a sea of what felt like hundreds of onyomis. I must admit, I lost motivation to do the kunyomis Heisigs way. I should try that over the summer, really, though xmas and moving will mean I might not have as much time to devote to making a deck as I would like.

What I would really love is for this site to somehow have a systematic SRS for the readings, I feel like the current labs one isn't really useful for me, but I much prefer this site to anki. Anki takes a lot more getting used to, I've found, but perhaps that's because I know next to nothing about programming, so anki automatically feels very opaque to me.

I've done the great mistake of abandoning my RtK deck, but it was too stressful to do keyword to kanji. But I think my difficulties lie in the fact that now, without RtK, I'm confounding between similar kanji. So I've restarted RtK, but kanji to meaning. It's way simpler now because with a little review I can recall my old stories and I'm more used to the kanji itself so it's easier to make a story.

In the end I'm doing this, kanji on the front and meaning + onyomi/s on the back of the card, as suggested in kanjidamage. I make a story, but only for the kanji I get screwed up, because I already know all the components contained in the kanji, so there is no need to follow the original RtK order for the second time. But, above all, I add onyomi mnemonics in the story, using allways the same mnemonic for the same onyomi.

If A kanji has more than a common onyomi, I do a single mnemonic for both kanji, like 正 which has both "sei" and "shou" I think of a rapper named seeshou. My mnemonic is "it's CORRECT to STOP when you see ONE STOP sign, as does SEEHOO when he drives". Obviously I don't memorize the story but I visualize it, with SeeShoo driving the car and stopping at the stop sign, while the traffic policeman clap for his correct action.

Other time when there are two common onyomi I use two separate onyomi, like for 判 where "King Salomon's JUDGEMENT was to split the child in HALF with a SWORD so both HANna Montana and Antonio BANderas would have one part of their child" (i know BAN here is an uncommon reading aside from when it's the second kanji and it gets the " that changes the sound, but just to make an example

After a couple of days my vocabs correct rate is better of 5-6% but the best thing is that while before I was discouraged now I'm more confident, and I feel more encouraged to read. And especially when I read I'm more relaxed because if I don't remember how to read a word I think about the story and I remember the reading. Or when I see a kanji that before I used to mistake for another similar kanji, now I see the components and I remember what of the two kanji it is. In other words I was relying too much on the "general feel" of the kanji, while now if I see a "tree" radical on the left I immediately recognise it's not that similar kanji but with a "thread" radical. This alone is helping so much in not screwing the readings, because most of the times I already knew the onyomi but I used to see one kanji for another. And also when learning a new word, it helps to see perfectly what the kanjis are instead of just looking at the general shape.

I'm writing this to encourage new students to keep RtK reviews, and if the effort to do keyword to kanji is too much, then flip the cards, it's still better than nothing and reviewing them is ten times easier. And if you could bear it, try to put some hint for at least the most used onyomi (if there are more than one), it could be the place where the story happens, a friend of yours and so on. Just try it, if it's too much then drop it and just do RtK the standard way.

I hope mine is not a short term benefit because I have no long term data, but I'm sure it's still better than nothing, and for the little effort it's requiring I think it's worth it.

Sorry to continuously bringing up this thread xD

PS: what about movie method and similar? Could someone make an example? Like 績 = "seki" (btw sorry for the romaji all around). Let's say seki is the movie return to the future. How do I put it in there (yes I know it has a seki signal primitive, it's just an example xD )

myxoma Wrote:Well if my memory serves me right, then the 1st RTK book is about remembering general concept or the "keyword" of Kanji and disregarding it's pronunciation. The 2nd RTK focuses on remembering the Kanji pronunciation on the first volume using mnemonic and stories. and the 3rd RTK pick up where it left off and add more "keyword" of Kanji.

So the total Kanji from Heisig RTK1+3 combined = ~3007 ish which is what my second deck is (this one https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/995 … ks0001.jpg ) So this deck contains the 2 top "stories" (and I think from this site, Im not sure) for each Kanji, its Onyomi, Kunyomi, Jouyou level, JLPT level, and I also added info about how many common words is used. I don't know who created this deck but i sure love this guy

And this deck ( https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/995 … ks0000.jpg ) is to further reinforce my On-Yomi which contains about 2386 card, but since its compound kanji word so you will see duplicate card word but that focuses on different Kanji in the compound Kanji. like this:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9959...ks0002.jpg -- card 11
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9959...ks0003.jpg -- card 1657

So here's how I learned:

•I studied Kanji from Heisig RTK1+3 combined deck first. Learn the keyword stories, make up my own Yomi-hint story field, skim read the common word field so see how the kanji is used, suspend most kanji with 'blank' common word field until I saw it in real life book/novel/games/news/drama/etc then i'll unsuspend it and add the word I found to the "common word field". I also add new kanji outside of RTK here when i found them. If you're only learning the kanji, then you may want to focus on keyword first. This took me about 2 months where the beginning is just me remembering only the keyword and I gradually become a lot better at Yomi sound (both Kun and On as Kun-yomi is occasionally used in compound kanji)

•Studies 2k core. Or at least have some known vocabs as it's a lot easier to relate to and create Yomi-hitn storeis based on the vocab you already learnt

•Tackle the RTK 2 public deck. I bit the bullet and spent 1 week cramming the whole deck during Uni break, received Divine retribution of ~200-300 ish card everyday on the following 2 week and received redemption after that where the cards due fall to around ~125

This picture I had sometimes ago may help provide you with Time-Cost Insight for the RTK 2 public deck
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9959...ks0005.jpg

- Initial learning + Cramming costs about 7+ hours combined. this is actually spread throughout the whole week and I think it doesn't take that much time because I already have some learned vocab to help is yomi hint
- The reviewing stage to retain it costs about another 7+ hours in the same month, relearn about half an hour
- The reviewing time was reduced to ~4 hours on the 2nd month, and to ~2 hours on the 3rd month and then I slacked off but that's another story
- I personally believe this method works quite well for me as the failing rate is pretty low since the 2nd month
- As mention by many people in the forum, keep the answer time per card low on review stage.
- Do a lot of Cramming at the beginning. It'll help improve the retention rate tremendously, and you'll end up saving a lot of time on the card later on.

Once this kanji business is done with, you should either quickly move on to 6k core or any real Japanese materials and expose yourself to real life and practical usages of compounded kanji words. Because from my experiences, you'll remember the compounded kanji word without the need of anki after you 1. really understood the component of kanji used 2. know its pronunciation 3.know its compounded meaning 4. had real life exposure to the word.

Finishing RTK deck only creates an illusion that can somewhat fulfills the 1st requirement (since RTK only helps you grasp the abstract concept of the Kanji). 2nd requirement can be aided with RTK2 public deck since the Yomi of kanji typically stays the same. 3rd requirement may be anki-ed but it can't help you with 4th requirement.


"PS: from the screenshots it seems you're doing them the opposite of the way Heisig suggest, it's so?"
what did heisig suggest again?

Bumping up this thread only to ask where could I find the Rtk1+3 deck with example words? It doesn't seem to be on the anki shared decks' page or maybe I'm unable to find it :/
What I really need is a quick way to import common words for each kanji, so it doesn't have to be that exact deck as long as it has example words. I've found one but it has too many words, I need something more like one or two example words for each reading, not a whole dictionary ._.
Thank you in advance and sorry for the bump!