I understand 'to know' is more literal in Japanese than English, so 「この歌を知っていますか？」 makes sense. 'Are you in the state of knowing this song?' more or less, whereas we'd say 'do you know this song?' (which is quite weird when you think about it).

So if that's the case, when do you use 「知る」? I was trying to compare the 2 with equivalent verbs to get a good idea of what the distinction is, but I got confused. 「これを食べるか。」 can mean something like 'do you eat this?', and　「これを食べているか。」 can mean 'are you eating this?'. And when you replace that with 「知る」, it's 'do you know this?', and 'are you knowing this?'. And I can't see the difference, or when to use which one.

Are you knowing?

According to "Making sense of Japanese" by Jay Rubin that has a chapter on that question, 知る means something closer to "to find out about" than "to know" so when you say "知っている" meaning "I know" you're saying that you are "in the state of already having found out". 知る would probably sound more like "I will find out" in that context and be kind of weird.

I recommend that book to find out more on that topic and many others

agreed. I was gonna quote the same book. it really is an excellent read.

And you hear [kana]shitteiru/shitteimasu[/kana] all the time, the other, not so much.

yea, 知る is a momentary action. to "come to know" something:

その時に知った - that's when I found out.

ALCing yorkii's 知った returns a cheeky little expression 知ったことか。

haha, that's a mad translation.

知るもんか is more interesting, haha.

But I'd say in general, it's one of those questions better thought in the reverse. Why DON'T we say "Are you knowing that?" Basically the answer is just that we don't. I'd venture a guess that it's similar with why Japanese doesn't really use 知る.

In regular usage, people use 知っている and 知らない (知っとん and 知らん in my area, heh). I know your question is "when" and not "why" but I find the "why" to be more important. 'Cause in my experience, the when is so rare that I can't even say I've heard (perhaps recognized) it.

Thank you, everyone.

I might have to check that book out. More and more I'm realising that one of my biggest weaknesses lies in the understanding as opposed to the actual learning, especially with the more abstract points.

And on that note I have yet another expression I need your help with:

---

これから行くところでした。

I was just about to go from now.

---

I don't see what part the ところ is playing. It's obviously not a physical place it's representing. I know it can stand for more abstract 'places', like a place in a person's personality, a place in time etc., but I still don't see how that would fit.

did you find that sentence somewhere? or did you write it yourself...it seems odd to me mixing the これから with the でした

but ya you are right that ところ is not just for a physical place, but also a point in time.

たった今仕事を終えたところです。
I have just finished my work.

仕事を終えたところでした。
I had just finished my work.

to say something like "I was just about to go." I would maybe use some like:
ちょうど行こうとした。

can anyone tell me if that sentence is ok by itself? I think I've mostly seen stuff like that as a clause at the beginning of a sentence...like:

ちょうど出かけようとしたが、電話が鳴った。
I was just about to go out, but the phone rang.

so further looking in the tanaka corpus (usual caveats apply about sentence reliability) I found this...

電話が鳴ったときちょうど出かけるところだった。
I was just about to leave the house when the telephone rang.

Codexus Wrote:According to "Making sense of Japanese" by Jay Rubin that has a chapter on that question, 知る means something closer to "to find out about" than "to know" so when you say "知っている" meaning "I know" you're saying that you are "in the state of already having found out". 知る would probably sound more like "I will find out" in that context and be kind of weird.

I recommend that book to find out more on that topic and many others

The bit on "わかる" in the same chapter was also great. The way that "you" don't わかる "something", but rather "something" わかる's itself.

わかる "something becomes clear".
わかった "something just spontaneously became clear".
わかっている "something is clear and has been for a long time".

Funny coincidence, I also saved a sentence with ところ this morning because I wasn't sure of the meaning.
今日のところは、のんびりとしましょう。

So I take it it's to emphasize that today we should take it easy?

〜するところだ just about to do ~
〜しているところだ in the middle of doing ~
〜したところだ just finished doing ~

It's one of the grammar points you study for 3-kyu I think. I remember thinking the same thing about "eh, place? what" when I first came across it, but turns out it's fairly common.

And Ramchip, I think you're right about just being an emphasis in that sentence. For example, I think of 今 as "now" and 今のところ as "at this point in time". Pretty close to the same meaning, but the usage is slightly different, the second more or less emphasizing that specifically right NOW something is true, but maybe not later.

Again, thank you so much everyone. Very eye-opening.

In practice, I've rarely heard people use "shiru/shirimasu" in real life. Shitteiru/Shitteimasu makes much more sense. Finding out "whether someone knows about something" (Shitteiru) is much more useful than finding out if someone "will come to know something" (shiru).

The -te iru ending adds a sense of dealing with the current state of things. "Shitteimasu ka" is like asking "At this moment and time, do you current know about <something>?".

Definitely read "Making Sense of Japanese". Changes your whole perspective on everything and makes you aware of little details that you may have never considered.

And [kana]shitteiru[/kana] often gets shortened to [kana]shiteru[/kana], like in manga dialogue.

Yeah I should definitely get on to buying that book, sounds like exactly what I need.

And soon, because I have another question!

久しぶりに彼の声が聞けた。

"I was able to hear his voice for the first time in a long time."

- http://www.guidetojapanese.org/potential.html#part2

(sorry johnzep, I forgot to say: I'm getting these questions/translations from Tae Kim)

In short, what's the に for there?

the に　just makes the adjective 久しぶり　into an adverb

i-adjectives turn into adverbs become adverbs by changing い to く
早い→早く

na-adjectives get に　attached
久しぶり→久しぶりに
きれい→きれいに

Ohhh... thanks. I completely forgot about that rule.

I always have problems with adverbs actually, even in English. I always think 'just add "ly" at the end (in a loose sense)' but that doesn't always work:

久しぶりに彼の声が聞けた。

After-a-long-time(ly) he('s) voice (identifier) hear(could)

That's how I'd translate that.But the adverb doesn't make much sense. What's the difference between using that and just 久しぶり on it's own?

By itself 久しぶり (and other na-adjectives) act similar to nouns. You can use it like a nown to say "久しぶり です" "it's a long time". As a modifier you need a particle there "久しぶり * 彼の声が聞けた". To modify nouns you use な but to modify verbs or adjectives you use に.

久しぶりに is a "time" adverb - "after a long time". It's probably best to just think of it as a whole.

久しぶり is similar to other points in time, like "10 o'clock" - "10時". You can say "it's 10 o'clock" - "10時です" but to say "at 10 o'clock" you use に　"10時に".

Hmm... how can I make it easier. Just adding "~ly" is not a sure thing because "~ly" is for adverbs that describe "how" something is done. A better way is to try to figure out "what question" the adverb is answering.

Quote:Adverbs typically answer questions such as how?, when?, where?, why? and to what extent? This function is called the adverbial function, and is realized not just by single words (i.e., adverbs) but by adverbial phrases and adverbial clauses.

For example in the phraze "I will eat it ...." you can fit lots of adverbs.
- If you use "quickly, slowly, grudgingly" you're answering the "how?" question.
- If you use "now, shortly, soon, later, tomorrow" you're answering the "when?" question.
- If you use "often, frequently, sometimes, daily" you're answering "how often?".

So the grammar rules themselves are very general, and the adverb itself tells you what its about. In the case of 久しぶりに it's answering the "when?" question, so works just like any of 今,　今日,　1時に,　来た時, etc.

billyclyde Wrote:And [kana]shitteiru[/kana] often gets shortened to [kana]shiteru[/kana], like in manga dialogue.

I'm not sure that's true... They are two different meanings. they probably just say it a little fast or something. but the っ is never left out.

I do not think that is true. Many people leave out the い in いる conjugations, but I have not yet seen someone leave out つ. In many manga and other scripts, the つ is not small though. This is because it is somewhat understood.

Smackle Wrote:In many manga and other scripts, the つ is not small though. This is because it is somewhat understood.

The つ actually is smaller, just not by very much.

I was speaking of some furigana and things where no differentiation is made, meaning you could do a side by side comparison on つ and　っ and find absolutely no difference.