Hello everyone! I just registered in the forum and would like to share with you my plans for the future. I'm a really objective oriented person and one of the things I like the most is making plans. I can spend hours analysing every possibility and choosing which one is the best one.

When I get interested in a particular subject, I get really focused on it and, some times, even relegate other activities. That could be considered a problem, but is actually something that makes me pursue my objectives with all my might.

I started learning japanese 3 months ago in July 22nd and I've been in love with the language ever since. I learned the Kana in 5 days and after some deep research, I decided that I would choose a beginner textbook and use Anki as my SRS program.

The usual choices for a textbook are either Genki or Minna no Nihongo. I tried both and decided to get deep into Minna no Nihongo. I'm currently in lesson 15 and I started Core 6k last week. I've been using Anki to create a lot of cards for each chapter of the textbook and it's been helping me immensely to learn the grammar and vocab.

Next year, if everything runs smoothly, I'll get a scholarship to stay a year in Japan in an undergraduate program. I'll share the content of my study methodology with you and would like to hear if you think that's reasonable.

1) July 2014 (2 weeks): Memorized Hiragana and Katakana. Tried Genki and Minna no Nihongo to see which worked better for me;

2) August 2014 to November 2014: Studied 1 lesson of Minna no Nihongo a week. Started Core 6k deck and am studying 50 cards/day;

3) November 2014 to December 2014: I plan on finishing Minna no Nihongo 1. When I get some break for college, I'll study 2 lessons per week, also creating 30~35 cards for each lesson. Also, I'll ramp up the number of cards studied in Core 6k to 100/day.

4) January 2015 to March 2015: I'll try to finish Minna no Nihongo 2 before April 1st. Flashcards for each lesson and the Kanji book are very important.

The next step is what gets a bit difficult for me to plan, because I don't know in which pace I will be able to study. I'll get Tobira Gateway to Advanced Japanese, but I'm not sure how will I study it. Since the book has 15 lessons, I guess I would study 1 lesson each 2 weeks.

5) April 2015 to August 2015 (5 months): Study first 10~11 chapters of Tobira. Start reading native material. I'll probably pick Yotsubato! as a first reading.

6) September 2015 to October 2015 (2 months): Finish Tobira while living in Japan and studying at a university. I'll try and communicate with natives and make some friends. Read some easy manga and complement studies with some other resources.

7) November 2015 to September 2016 (10 months): Keep studying in Japan, try to fill the Grammar for N3 with some textbook. Go through the Kanzen Master series for N2 and, after that, start the Kanzen Master N1. I'll return to Brazil in the middle of September.

8) September 2016 to December 2016: Keep studying the Kanzen Master N1 and at the end of the year, get the JLPT N1.

I still don't know if this is the best course of action, but like I said before, I just like to plan a lot. I have no problem if I can't reach this goal in the time that I have determined, but it's a really great motivation for me to study. I want to be able to play Visual Novels, JRPG's, read Light Novels, manga and watch anime without aid of subtitles. I'm sorry for the humoungous lenght of the post, but I really wanted to share my plans with everyone here. Have a wonderful week!

You should have multiple grammar resources and drill books. The Dictionary of Basic/Intermediate/Advanced Japanese (DoJG) series is a must. I like Making Sense of Japanese Grammar and All About Particles too. There are other grammar textbooks and drill books I want to recommend, but I left them at my wife's place in Japan and I don't have time to go on a Google hunt. I'm sure plenty of people here have suggestions of their own, though.

Also, you didn't mention much about media. Media is essential. Find some good TV shows, anime, reading materials, etc. Ideally you'll watch movies and the like with Japanese subtitles, but English subs are fine if you burnout. Once you finish Tobira, a great place to start is the Read Real Japanese series.

When you get to Japan, try to limit your studying/reading to a few hours a day, and spend the rest of your time with Japanese people. Join circles, Meetup groups, international events/organizations, whatever. You're only going to be there for a year, so listening and speaking should be your focus. You can work on reading and writing anywhere in the world, but opportunities for listening and speaking are much rarer outside of Japan.

Anyway, you have a nice plan and realistic timeframe. Don't be afraid to adjust the plan. Don't hesitate to speed things up (fyi, 2 years is the fastest I've seen a Westerner progress from beginner to N1. We went to the same language school, and he's from Sweden, and Japanese is his third language after Swedish and English, in case you're interested) or slow things down or add or delete particular resources. If something isn't working, then take it out and find something that works.

Good luck and welcome to the forum.

Thank you so much for the advice!

I'll without a doubt take a look at these resources. I already wrote them down in my wishlist. I forgot to say anything about media, but I already watch some anime. I still can only pick a couple words here and there, but in the rare occasions when I understand some whole sentences, I get really excited. I'll probably take a look in NHK News Easy in the future and I really liked the format of a site called Erin's Challenge. I'll come back to it when I prepare myself a bit more:

https://www.erin.ne.jp/en/

I believe that immersion is one of the most important aspects of learning a language. Now that you mention it, that makes a lot of sense. If I go to Japan, but spend too much time secluded in my room studying, I'll be wasting a golden opportunity. When I get there, I'll try to join some clubs. If I go to Hokkaido University, there's a group there called "English Speaking Society" that really interested me, like the Kyudo and some other clubs.

If possible, I'll try to speed things up. Japanese will also be my third language. I'm a native portuguese speaker and english is my second one. I don't know much english grammar, but I exposed myself to so much media for the past years, that it made me able to communicate and understand the language.

It really seems that this plan is just a framework. New things will be added and others may be removed. Thank you once more for the nice comment. I've been browsing the forum for a while and I'm enjoying it very much.

Sounds like a good plan. But make no mistake about it, you will need to study hard to achieve your goal in 2 and a half years. Learning Japanese takes a lot of time.

It's hard for me to judge the plan as a whole because I'm still just around (or below) N3 level. But if I were to start over I would put more emphasis on reading (and also listening) earlier on. I used Genki and tried to push on with learning a lot of grammar fast and also studying vocabulary with Anki. But the result was that neither stuck very well because the material didn't really had time and chance to become second nature. It's still a problem for me now.

I think one needs more repetition and variation than Anki and a textbook is able to give you and you get that from regular exposure to a lot of written material. Basically I think it's beneficial to do a bit of tadoku on the side.

As for material to begin reading the graded readers series published through White Rabbit Press are possibilites as well as the graded readers by Clay and Yumi Boutwell. I'm sure someone is able to recommend some enjoyable childrens litterature too.

Stansfield123 Wrote:Sounds like a good plan. But make no mistake about it, you will need to study hard to achieve your goal in 2 and a half years. Learning Japanese takes a lot of time.

Sure thing! I'll study as hard as I can. I know it's a pretty huge undertaking, but I'll do everything that is in my reach to reach it.

Hinsudesu Wrote:It's hard for me to judge the plan as a whole because I'm still just around (or below) N3 level. But if I were to start over I would put more emphasis on reading (and also listening) earlier on. I used Genki and tried to push on with learning a lot of grammar fast and also studying vocabulary with Anki. But the result was that neither stuck very well because the material didn't really had time and chance to become second nature. It's still a problem for me now.

I think one needs more repetition and variation than Anki and a textbook is able to give you and you get that from regular exposure to a lot of written material. Basically I think it's beneficial to do a bit of tadoku on the side.

As for material to begin reading the graded readers series published through White Rabbit Press are possibilites as well as the graded readers by Clay and Yumi Boutwell. I'm sure someone is able to recommend some enjoyable childrens litterature too.

Thanks for the recommendation! There's a book in the Minna no Nihongo series that focus solely on Reading, but it's necessary to have finished at least the first book to follow it. I'll try to take a look at it when I get through the first volume. I think I'll try to take a look at NKH News Easy in the future too. I was told it's a pretty good practice exercise. Have you read Yotsubato? I heard very good things about it.

Hello there klloud!

I did N1 in 2 years and 10 months with a 169/180 and I spent almost an entire year in the beginning just listening to music and doing Genki I in class at university. So I'm sure you can do the same in two and a half years if you stick to it- but it's going to be tough! You can read my entire (unnecessarily long) story here-- (http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=11247)

I'd echo a lot of what was said above-
Textbooks are a good foot in the door but don't neglect native materials! You can get started much earlier than you think you can if you have the dedication to push through. The Read Real Japanese series is good for sure (although I only borrowed one from a friend and read one or two stories). A book for N1 grammar points is also not a bad idea as it will tell you what to expect to come up in that section. I actually like a slightly lesser-known (?) one called 日本語能力試験N1 文法対策―1回で合格! -- all explanations are in Japanese.

Actually my biggest point of advice concerning N1 is just to really try to *understand* Japanese. Why? Because the N1 is basically just native Japanese with questions attached to see if you understand. And the only way you can do that is to absorb massive amounts of real Japanese! N1 is at a level that any reasonably educated high school student in Japan who reads a book every now and then should be able to pass. There's nothing archaic or wild and crazy as people like to say when talking about how hard it is. The difficulty stems from its incredible... normal-ness? The listening is also possibly the easiest part for anyone who listens to a lot of native Japanese-- and with your planned study abroad year in Japan you should be good to go (as long as you get out and talk with a lot of people!). I suggest 飲ミュニケーション!

The only problem is that, no matter how ready you think you are, native material will always seem difficult until you get used to it. Although I suppose you're aware of this from having studied English the same way!

Hang in there! You can do eeeet!

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Arupan Wrote:> OP
I really don't like evaluating people's methods, study plans and so on, but... there was this really big question inside of me after taking a quick look at your post → why!? You say you "want to be able to play Visual Novels, JRPG's, read Light Novels, manga and watch anime without aid of subtitles." I get that. But why!? What I really wondered was do you have any interest in Japanese people and culture or not?
1) If it's just about their products (comics, animations, games, etc...) → sorry for bothering you.
2) If not however → why would you, for example, go to Japan in order to study the language? Don't you want to meet people, get a girlfriend or something? You do know that most characters and Japanese comics / animations / games and so on are based on actual people's personality most of the times, don't you? Is it really more interesting for your virtual character to get the girl instead of you?

You really can't imagine why a perfectly normal, well adjusted person would see value in traveling to a foreign country to study the language there?

drdunlap Wrote:N1 is at a level that any reasonably educated high school student in Japan who reads a book every now and then should be able to pass. There's nothing archaic or wild and crazy as people like to say when talking about how hard it is.

I hope you're right about that, but to me it's looking increasingly likely that mere exposure to native materials will not be enough to cover the N1 grammar requirement, in contrast to the N2 which now seems trivially easy.

anotherjohn Wrote:I hope you're right about that, but to me it's looking increasingly likely that mere exposure to native materials will not be enough to cover the N1 grammar requirement, in contrast to the N2 which now seems trivially easy.

I don't really know anything about the JLPT, but what difference does it make? If you're right, and the N1 is too difficult for a native highschooler who speaks Japanese just fine, then it's a broken test that doesn't serve its purpose. So why care whether you can pass it or not?

I've just recently tried to pass an English test (on a micro job site I sometimes look for work on), only to realize it's not an English test, it's testing knowledge of some weird grammar curriculum someone who probably doesn't even speak English as well as I do came up with. So I didn't bother with the test. People can tell how well you speak a language withing 2 minutes of meeting them, you don't need an N1 diploma for that.

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drdunlap Wrote:I did N1 in 2 years and 10 months with a 169/180 and I spent almost an entire year in the beginning just listening to music and doing Genki I in class at university. So I'm sure you can do the same in two and a half years if you stick to it- but it's going to be tough! You can read my entire (unnecessarily long) story here-- (http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=11247)

Props to you for what you've done, drdunlap, but you're not exactly the median Japanese learner. Zero to N1 in under 3 years, for a non-bilingual Westerner, is remarkable. (You did mention playing music from a young age, which I tend to think provides an edge, but that's just my crazy theory.)

Most people here work pretty hard at Japanese, without achieving the results you did. And that doesn't count all those who died out along the way.

I have a friend with an N1 certification who claims to have a terrible memory. Now, I'm sure he believes that, but it's not like he took a memory test and got a score of "Terrible." My point is that people tend to be poor judges of their own ability. Like, running a marathon was pretty easy for me, and I tend to think, Oh, anybody can do it, even without much training. But objectively, that's probably not true. Everyone's physiology is different. Some people have gigantic asses, for example.

And everyone's capacity for learning Japanese is different. While I applaud your positive attitude, I don't think we can predict the results and time-frame for a new learner. You make it sound as easy as running a marathon.

Stansfield123 Wrote:I don't really know anything about the JLPT, but what difference does it make? If you're right, and the N1 is too difficult for a native highschooler who speaks Japanese just fine, then it's a broken test that doesn't serve its purpose. So why care whether you can pass it or not?

That's not what anotherjohn said, really.

As for my own thoughts on the level, I think even for middle school students the test would be a breeze, except for really really bad students.

Anyway, it's hard to study N1 grammar without a dedicated guide because some of what is included comes up fairly rarely. So if you're studying by exposure, you often keep re-forgetting the grammar point because your exposure to it is too infrequent. Nevertheless, some N1 grammar is extremely common, and it's all every-day enough to Japanese people that you'll see it in books meant for 12 year olds or even younger. In other words, a test can be very easy for a native high-schooler, and yet mere exposure may still be a poor way to study for the test.

Arupan Wrote:I can imagine it of course, but making real Japanese friends (not just acquaintances) while having a low level of Japanese is quite hard (unless he is a very person person) in my opinion ^^

I bet he's not gonna be the only Brazilian studying at the school he's gonna study at. If anything, getting a girlfriend is easier on the road than at home, because the girls you tend to meet are in the same boat you are in.

And there are people in Japan who speak foreign languages. For the time it takes him to learn enough Japanese, he can have Portuguese or English speaking friends.

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:Props to you for what you've done, drdunlap, but you're not exactly the median Japanese learner. Zero to N1 in under 3 years, for a non-bilingual Westerner, is remarkable. (You did mention playing music from a young age, which I tend to think provides an edge, but that's just my crazy theory.)

You are probably right concerning bilingualism and language learning, but you probably didn't notice that klloud already is bilingual. He is Brazilian and certainly understand and can write in English.

On the other side, I'm also bilingual and it didn't help me to learn Japanese. I kept trying techniques that worked so well in English and Esperanto without realizing that they don't work very well for Japanese. (I also got extremely tired doing too much Anki...)

klloud Wrote:When I get interested in a particular subject, I get really focused on it and, some times, even relegate other activities. That could be considered a problem, but is actually something that makes me pursue my objectives with all my might.

I will not criticize you plan, the only thing I think I can say is: it is easy to plan to work hard and work hard for a week, a month on even some months. But you are planning to work very hard for two and a half years! So, I suggest that you plan to have little vacations and prizes. For example, plan that when you reach a determined milestone in vocab you give yourself a gift and take a week or two of vacation. Try to keep reviewing, but forget the books and new cards. Just try to relax.

I say this because I remember very well a time when I was extremely tired and tried to keep working hard every day. Everyone can predict what happened. One day I didn't have energy study, the following day the number of cards was scary and I ended up not studying for an entire month.

Stansfield123 Wrote:And there are people in Japan who speak foreign languages. For the time it takes him to learn enough Japanese, he can have Portuguese or English speaking friends.

Just an interesting fact, there are tons of Brazilians in Japan. This happened because here in Brazil is the largest Japanese population outside of Japan. And since the Japanese economic is very good and stable, and due to economic and political problems in Brazil, many Japanese Brazilians go to Japan as contract workers. And it not uncommon that these Japanese Brazilians to stay in Japan.

>drdunlap

Thank you so much for the comment! I realized that I did not talk much about consuming native media in my post. However, this will be a big part of my learning process. I believe immersion to be one of the most important aspects of learning a new language. I'll write down your recommendations in my wishlist and when the time comes for me to test them, I'll surely try it. It's very motivating to know that someone accomplished something like this. I'll take a look at your post as soon as I finish replying everyone here.

Arupan Wrote:> OP
I really don't like evaluating people's methods, study plans and so on, but... there was this really big question inside of me after taking a quick look at your post → why!? You say you "want to be able to play Visual Novels, JRPG's, read Light Novels, manga and watch anime without aid of subtitles." I get that. But why!? What I really wondered was do you have any interest in Japanese people and culture or not?
1) If it's just about their products (comics, animations, games, etc...) → sorry for bothering you.
2) If not however → why would you, for example, go to Japan in order to study the language? Don't you want to meet people, get a girlfriend or something? You do know that most characters and Japanese comics / animations / games and so on are based on actual people's personality most of the times, don't you? Is it really more interesting for your virtual character to get the girl instead of you?

I love to study and, for me, life is a constant learning process. Consuming japanese media was probably my main goal at first, but as I progress in my studies I realize that there're other reasons why I may want to learn the language. I didn't know much about japanese culture before I started learning the language, but the more I get to know it, the more intrigued I become. It's a world so different from what I'm used to that I can't help but be fascinated. Here in Brazil, the sense of individuality is really strong, but in Japan, the culture is on the complete opposite of it.

About going to Japan, my reasons are not only to learn the language. My country created a program called "Science Without Borders", in which a lot of undergraduate students get the opportunity to study abroad, strengthen the relations Brazil has with other countries and bring scientific knowledge from overseas. I'm a civil engineering student, so I believe that studying in a japanese university could be very benefical to my career. Earthquakes, shores, a wide range of climatic changes throughout the year and one of the best public transportation systems of the world are only some of the aspects that really grab my attention when I think about Japan. Learning the language would be a huge part of the process, but actually, it would be a mere byproduct of it.

Getting a japanese girlfriend would be a bit difficult for me. I'm really serious about commitment and since I'll stay only a year in the country, there wouldn't be enough time for it. I plan on building my career here in Brazil and I'm almost sure that I would not be willing to move to Japan.

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:I bet he's not gonna be the only Brazilian studying at the school he's gonna study at. If anything, getting a girlfriend is easier on the road than at home, because the girls you tend to meet are in the same boat you are in.

And there are people in Japan who speak foreign languages. For the time it takes him to learn enough Japanese, he can have Portuguese or English speaking friends.

There's at least 100 brazilians that go to Japan every year through this program. I agree that it's more likelier to get a girlfriend in the way back home than in Japan. Like I said in my reply to Arupan, there's a series of factors that prevent me from getting into a relationship with a japanese girl.

An interesting fact is that all classes are held in english. Also, the 3 universities that I'll apply to have strong exchange programs, in which people from all over the world get the opportunity to study. Hokkaido University, for instance, has a program that accepts at least 50 foreign students from different nationalities every year.

jahnke Wrote:I will not criticize you plan, the only thing I think I can say is: it is easy to plan to work hard and work hard for a week, a month on even some months. But you are planning to work very hard for two and a half years! So, I suggest that you plan to have little vacations and prizes. For example, plan that when you reach a determined milestone in vocab you give yourself a gift and take a week or two of vacation. Try to keep reviewing, but forget the books and new cards. Just try to relax.

I say this because I remember very well a time when I was extremely tired and tried to keep working hard every day. Everyone can predict what happened. One day I didn't have energy study, the following day the number of cards was scary and I ended up not studying for an entire month.

Good to see that we have a lot of brazilian fellows here! Thank you so much for the advice, it's much appreciated. I agree with you and I think that resting is important, but I'm a bit crazy when it comes to studying.

I understand well what you mean. However, I would dare to say that I'm used to heavy and disciplined routine studies. Here in Brazil, to get into a good public university, we have the feared "vestibular" (ENEM is replacing everything, but it was different back in my time). It's a pretty content heavy admission test, in which you have to know every single thing teached in high school. It doesn't matter if you don't have good grades in your past school life. If you get one of the highest scores, you get a seat.

I'm not trying to brag or anything. Please don't mistake me for it, but I studied intensively for 1 and half years. I would go to school in the morning, take 5 hours of lessons, go back home at 13:00 pm, sit at my desk, start studying at 14:00 and only stop to sleep at 00:00. Of course I would eat and go to the bathroom, but I would dedicate 10 daily hours of study every day. When the time for test came, I got first place in the test among 10 thousand candidates and it was one of the best feelings I ever had.

I liked to do it. Since I was a kid I loved to study, but if I had kept that pace for much longer, it would probably harm my health in some way. After I got into college, I became much more laid back. I rarely study as much as I did in the past and I dedicate much more time to myself now. I've been studying a lot of japanese, but I've been trying not to cross my limit. Because of this past experience when I got out of high school, I learned to be more contained. I would never pull something like that again.

I know that 2 and half years is a lot, but if I don't get demotivated, I may be able to keep a steady pace. It's very likely that if I put a load too heavy for me, I will not get tired in the short term, but in the future, it may grow too big and make me crumble apart. I hope you the best and wish that you won't get this tired again. Work hard, but not too much! hahah

jahnke Wrote:Just an interesting fact, there are tons of Brazilians in Japan. This happened because here in Brazil is the largest Japanese population outside of Japan. And since the Japanese economic is very good and stable, and due to economic and political problems in Brazil, many Japanese Brazilians go to Japan as contract workers. And it not uncommon that these Japanese Brazilians to stay in Japan.

That's pretty interesting. I have heard that some times and it seems to happen a lot. A friend's aunt lives in Nagano and if I'm not mistaken, the city has the highest number of brazilians in the country.

Thank you so much everyone for the responses. I wish you all a wonderful week.

[Zgarbas]

Nah, Aichi ken is where all the Brazilians are at . I was really surprised to see that streetsigns in tokyo *don't* have Portuguese subtitles.

Sounds like a good plan. Don't hesitate to revise it along the way, but as a foundation it has pretty much everything you need. Supplement it with native material freely (I also only planned out actual *study* time and supplemented whenever I felt like it, but tbh native material wore me out rather than helped, so not by much; Your Mileage May Vary).

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It's exactly as easy as running a marathon!
And he's ready and willing to train for years for that marathon.
I am only assuming he has legs.
(But, if he doesn't, I hear they make some sweet prosthetics these days.)

[Zgarbas]

Wikipedia says it's Aichi, and that supports what I've heard from my colleagues.
I also think that there are better things to do in Japan, but wouldn't discourage anyone from spending their time studying; one's sense of purpose can be stronger than one's sense of traditional 'fun', and that's totally cool. Also, it's totally possible to fit in intensive study whilst having a life, if you're good enough at time management.

You should probably keep some flexibility in your goals and plans as well. Speaking from a purely statistical standpoint, passing N1 in 2.5 years is unlikely. Are you the kind of person who is able to adjust goals based on your progress, or are you the kind of person who will get discouraged and potentially quit if you're not making as much progress as you had hoped to?

Of course I'm not saying that you personally will not be able to accomplish your goal. But I've seen people get very discouraged when their progress didn't match what they had hoped to accomplish, and for some people, more modest goals can actually be helpful.

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