Actually, the way things are explained can have a huge impact on whether or not you understand the concept. So it's perfectly valid to find resources unhelpful even if you are studying 2 hours or more a day.

Eminem2 Wrote:My own experience has been that Japanese grammar is too extensive and refined to really pick up on "on the go", so to speak.

My experience is that you are wrong. By studying sentences it doesn't take all that long relatively speaking to encounter all the grammar you really need on a day-to-day basis enough times that you know it.

Not that I'm saying your resources and explanations can't be helpful either, but for someone who's in the depths of the failure-loop that the OP is in, I think ignoring all that stuff is the way to go. Good as a reference, sure - but not as a sit-down-and-study-it kind of deal. It's much easier to make sense of all those explanations when you already understand it on an instinctive level from exposure (which is totally possible to do).

sort-of @kameden:
I think a lot of people fail at the point where the OP is now. I nearly did - lots of berating myself for not sitting down in front of the textbook and studying for hours even though it bored me to tears and the information in it didn't sink in at all. Changing method worked.
Every method works for someone or no one would bother promoting them, but not every method works for everyone. Of course you need to put in the time, but to do so you need to find a method that you can stand to do every day for however long. Trying to work harder at a method you hate is a great way to burn out and fail.

frosty_rain Wrote:I'm also intrigued by the concept that simply listening to Japanese and not worrying about comprehension can do wonders for understanding.

tbh, I think this is one of the 'dodgy' parts of AJATT. I doubt listening to Japanese without comprehension has ever helped anyone with anything. I tried it, but it's painfully dull and I think I got nothing from the experience.

frosty_rain Wrote:Thanks for the advice, I'll look into subs2srs.

I also went ahead and read some of AJATT's blog posts. The philosophy written there has drastically changed my perspective of this whole language learning thing. Aiming to fail, the importance of frequency over quantity and my personal favorite, "strategic laziness" haha. I used to go all out with J-learning, basically trying to learn the whole language all in one sitting. If I didn't bust my hump studying hard for at least 2 hours a day then I didn't think I was doing it right. Makes sense that it burned me out and I ended up frustrated and would procrastinate studying.

I think doing little bits more often, and not trying to hammer every little piece of vocab in my head would be a lot more enjoyable and effective in the long run, even if it seems less productive. I'm also intrigued by the concept that simply listening to Japanese and not worrying about comprehension can do wonders for understanding. Mostly because the thought of simultaneously studying and playing Xbox seems like a rad idea ha.

Personally, I tend to replace listening to incomprehensible audio with watching things with subtitles (and trying to pay attention to the audio as well, as much as possible), and then ripping that audio and re-listening to it repeatedly (while playing video games, or traveling). A good resource to do that with are variety and comedy shows. There are tons of them available, subtitled, on youtube.

Ripping audio is SOME work though. After a while, once you begin understanding parts of the language, you can start replacing the ripped audio with straight up radio. But you should always strive to keep as much of it comprehensible as possible.

I do believe listening even to incomprehensible audio helps a little bit, when done in conjunction with serious studying. I think it helps memorize words and common phrases: if you listen to the same words/ phrases over and over again, without knowing what they mean, and then you encounter them while studying, they're gonna be easier to remember than otherwise.

But listening to comprehensible audio helps a lot more. I would even go so far as to disagree with the AJATT author, and say that just watching stuff subbed might be more helpful than incomprehensible audio. But just to be sure, I try to re-listen or re-watch without subs as much as possible.

And, of course, especially with a tough language like Japanese, studying remains important. You have to keep in mind that the author of AJATT, while doing his 24/7 immersion, also SRSd 10,000 sentences in two years, to learn the language (and collected a lot of those sentences himself). I also believe that, while AJATT doesn't recommend it, studying grammar will become far more effective if done in conjunction with SRSing sentences and immersion (immersion done properly, and effectively, by trying to make it as comprehensible as possible).

P.S. I know I'm the one who recommended AJATT, but now I'm recommending you to be careful. The author of AJATT is very enthusiastic, and his style sucks you in. You should test his advice, but when it doesn't work, or sounds too good to be true, don't be shy to dismiss parts of it (without dismissing the whole). I'm sure that he'd be the first to admit that he's just a guy who's drawing from experience, not any kind of scientist speaking with certainty.

The main things not to be taken too seriously about AJATT are his war against grammar, his war against subtitles, and his love of incomprehensible tv and audio. Just like him, I'm also only speaking from personal experience, but Japanese isn't my first rodeo, I also speak several European languages, and I can tell you that both grammar and watching things with subs helps.

Stansfield123 Wrote:But listening to comprehensible audio helps a lot more. I would even go so far as to disagree with the AJATT author, and say that just watching stuff subbed might be more helpful than incomprehensible audio. But just to be sure, I try to re-listen or re-watch without subs as much as possible.

I really like this advice; I've found the same to be true in my personal experience as well.

[RawToast]

frosty_rain Wrote:Yeah, I get that...it's difficult to explain. I understand it what they mean definition wise, but it's just not something I've ever thought about or tried to identify in practice, being a native speaker of English. Also I'm more referring to the really academic parts of a sentence, like the causative passive, independent/dependent clauses, the passive imperative, etc.

As a native English speaker I was in the same boat. At school English grammar isn't taught in the same way as it is for foreign languages. You just need to get your head around it, take a guide that actually explains the meanings of those terms for Japanese (wikipedia or Tae Kim) read up and then make flashcards, with explanations, and an example sentence -- I went one step further and made some production cards for a basic set of verbs, which has helped considerably (so far).

For some of the terms it is simple enough to think "presumptive" = "if" and "Past Indicative" = "past tense" even if they're not exactly right. For now you just need something to grip onto.

Quote:That's another thing I don't get though. Particles. I've read and reread all kinds of different explanations on particles, but they each seem to have 5 different meanings applied in totally arbitrary ways that don't make any sense. I never know which particle to put where, or even when to use a particle and when to omit it.

Whilst reading, sentence decks, and closed delete cards work for some people; I found it never helped me with this. I could read basic sentences and understand the particles with minimal problems, but always got it wrong when attempting to produce the sentence. This was coming off the back of sentence cards for Genki, Tae Kim, 1/2 JSPfEC and completing a closed delete deck for the dictionaries of grammar.

Again I found production has helped. You need a deck with simple sentences and simple vocab so that you can focus on the structure. I was going to make a deck based of Japanese Sentence Patterns for Effective Communication, but I found this deck and used it instead:

https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/118992102

It's the first 1/3rd of sentences from Japanese for Busy People 1. I set the deck up with English on the front and force myself to produce the answer in Japanese. If the card said "Bob went to the noodle stand" and I haven't studied what a noodle stand is (or my mind is simply blank), just change the word to something you do know -- since the point of the exercise is the GRAMMAR. e.g. Bob went to the book shop. ボブは本屋に行きました。（行った） would be correct.

As the cards get harder more particles are needed, but since it is based on a textbook those have already been covered so it's like a SRS within an SRS (the hardest sentence in the deck is something like: ボブはタナカさんと東京に喫茶店でコーヒーを飲みます。but you can easily use some loan words to make it easier e.g. London, restaurant, etc.)

There's only ~180 cards, so you can get away with 5/10 a day. I can't recommend this for more complex structures, but for solidifying the basic particles it worked very well.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That aside, I agree completely with Stansfield's post above.

Aikynaro Wrote:

Eminem2 Wrote:My own experience has been that Japanese grammar is too extensive and refined to really pick up on "on the go", so to speak.

My experience is that you are wrong. By studying sentences it doesn't take all that long relatively speaking to encounter all the grammar you really need on a day-to-day basis enough times that you know it.

That depends on the quality of the sentences, I suppose. As well as on the quality of their translations. Not to mention their quantity, since I'm guessing it takes more than one or two sentences before a specific grammar point sinks in on an instinctive level. And if you're going to be studying multiple sentences in order to learn specific grammar points, why not go the extra mile and use a full-blown textbook that comes with complete explanations alongside the example sentences? Would that not save a lot of time otherwise spent waiting on intuition to finally deliver the goods? (What was your source for the sentences that you used, I wonder?)

Aikynaro Wrote:Not that I'm saying your resources and explanations can't be helpful either, but for someone who's in the depths of the failure-loop that the OP is in, I think ignoring all that stuff is the way to go. Good as a reference, sure - but not as a sit-down-and-study-it kind of deal. It's much easier to make sense of all those explanations when you already understand it on an instinctive level from exposure (which is totally possible to do).

I tried to make my resources as low on academic jargon as I thought possible, providing the shortest route to some practically relevant conjugations of verbs and adjectives, as well as various other essential Japanese grammar points. Given that the OP already tried a resource like JP101 that comes fairly close to what you seem to be proposing (exposure to loads of sentences alongside their, in my opinion too often painfully poor, English translations), and that (s)he also was not getting much benefit from plowing through grammar books, I thought that my practical "grammar dictionary" idea (basic as it still is) and the Anki-sets it is based on could perhaps be more to his/her liking.

The sentences I'm referring to are taken from native sources (anime, for me - subs2srs). The translation isn't so important with a definition of unknown words - if you know most of the words in a sentence and there's context, the meaning is usually quite clear, or becomes clear after you see more sentences like it. The translation is normally quite fine too and useful for checking understanding. Certainly more than one or two sentences - but the logic goes that you're meant to srs 10000 of them so chances are pretty good (I only made it to 6000, but good enough I reckon).

As for why not to go the extra mile ... because it's paaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiinful. Perhaps you don't understand, but for some of us, reading grammar explanations is the very definition of boring. It sabotages all attempts to study and makes the whole thing seem not worth doing. I found studying sentences to be extremely tolerable and functional. I don't think I ever made it past the verbs explanation in my basic grammar textbook. The extra mile saps all enthusiasm for continuing. Studying sentences (and by 'studying' I mean briefly reading and checking that I understand it, and hitting either the spacebar key or 1) is significantly less dull and doesn't take any more time because you have to do something similar in any case to learn vocabulary.

Maybe the OP is less pathologically lazy than me, in which case certainly your way might be fine. Grammar dictionaries are cool and all, and there's valid reasons to study grammar properly. So long as you're not dismissing the way I did things, I have no problem with what you're saying.


Rereading your post, I think you misunderstand what I'm advocating.
Here is an old post with my card layout. By 'studying sentences' - that's all I mean. Certainly nothing like the borefest I presume JP101 to be.

Aikynaro Wrote:As for why not to go the extra mile ... because it's paaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiinful. Perhaps you don't understand, but for some of us, reading grammar explanations is the very definition of boring. It sabotages all attempts to study and makes the whole thing seem not worth doing.

Um, no. I really don't understand, but please don't take that as criticism. E.g. if a practical grammar guide tells me how to add the meaning "to be able to" to a verb, why is that boring? I can think of lots of ways that knowledge could be useful. And isn't it also useful to know that certain choices of words are typically female and others typically male? That's the kind of nuance you might not pick up from comparing spoken Japanese to subtitles...

Aikynaro Wrote:I found studying sentences to be extremely tolerable and functional. I don't think I ever made it past the verbs explanation in my basic grammar textbook. The extra mile saps all enthusiasm for continuing.

What I meant with "the extra mile" is a textbook that integrates example sentences and stuff like "fill in the blanks" exercises with audio and brief grammar explanations, interspersed with larger bodies of text with footnotes and small vocab lists. (Perhaps the oft-praised "Genki" series is somewhat like that?) That way, theory is constantly reinforced by practical application. Kind of the way I recall my high school language text books (with audio parts) on French, German and English were structured. Their main problems were the often rather boring subjects of the longer texts (not just in my opinion, but in the opinion of virtually all my fellow students at the time), that had the same effect on me as attempting grammar study appears to have had on you. But the concepts they were built on seemed sound to me.

Aikynaro Wrote:So long as you're not dismissing the way I did things, I have no problem with what you're saying.

I had never even considered that the way you did things was an actual way to master an entire language, so I have no basis on which to dismiss it. At worst, I have a little trouble envisaging the informal method of language study that you propose. But it certainly sounds intriguing.

I think the misunderstanding? between Eminem2 and Aikynaro is two totally different learning styles.

I have tried the more formal way, textbooks and grammar dictionaries, and as much as I tried to be interested in them, I just wasn't. So I'm going to switch things up a bit.


The reservations about AJATT are duly noted. I don't think that listening to audio without comprehension is going to help you learn a language, especially on its own. But it can't hurt, especially when used to fill in the blanks. What I mean by that is, if I study for say, 30 minutes and take a break to eat or whatever before going at it again, listening to Japanese in the background during that time certainly isn't going to hurt anything.

I dunno how much it will help, but if AJATT's "frequency" theory has any merit, being exposed to Japanese as often as possible, in as many ways as possible, could help sprinkle a little extra on my study time.

Although I pretty much already do that, just with anime. Problem is, when it comes to subs, I mostly read instead of listen. I try to do both, but usually end up either tuning out one or the other.


I will check out the grammar decks that have been provided on here on an ad hoc basis, and subs2srs is definitely something I wanna get into. But for right now I'm probably going to start working on Nayr's deck and read me sum sentences.

Smart choice. One final piece of advice: some of the sentences in Nayr's deck are quite difficult; don't be shy about suspending sentences that are too difficult for you. You can always come back to them later on, when you're more advanced, if you feel like it (though it's not obligatory).

Even if you suspend 50% of the cards you encounter, you're still perfectly fine. The biggest mistake anyone can make with Anki is fail to be selective about the materials they study. There's more Japanese materials on Ankiweb than any one person could go through. So there's no shortage. There's no reason to ever study a sentence that's not a good fit for your level.

Now that I think back, I seem to remember that AJATT recommends being picky about sentences too. Great advice, wish I had followed it more closely back when I was starting out. But I tried being a bit of a perfectionist at first, and that's a terrible way to try and learn a language.

Stansfield123 Wrote:Smart choice. One final piece of advice: some of the sentences in Nayr's deck are quite difficult; don't be shy about suspending sentences that are too difficult for you. You can always come back to them later on, when you're more advanced, if you feel like it (though it's not obligatory).

Even if you suspend 50% of the cards you encounter, you're still perfectly fine. The biggest mistake anyone can make with Anki is fail to be selective about the materials they study. There's more Japanese materials on Ankiweb than any one person could go through. So there's no shortage. There's no reason to ever study a sentence that's not a good fit for your level.

Now that I think back, I seem to remember that AJATT recommends being picky about sentences too. Great advice, wish I had followed it more closely back when I was starting out. But I tried being a bit of a perfectionist at first, and that's a terrible way to try and learn a language.

Yeah, that's also something I could have done better in the past.

For instance, when I started the Core decks (Kore 6k I think) they said, "don't pay attention to the kanji or the words you don't know, just study the vocab word the card gives you and use the sentence for context." And so of course I went ahead and tried to hammer EVERYTHING into memory, tried to look up EVERY word and write down EVERY kanji a hundred times. You can imagine how long it might take to do a single card when pretty much everything is new to you. Now it seems pretty obvious why I got so burned out and stopped wanting to even bring up Anki.

So...I think a lot of my issue wasn't so much what I was using to study, but how I was going about it. I also didn't really have the right mindset, and kept berating myself for not knowing or remembering things. AJATT's '10,000 sentences' and his "Aim to fail" advice really helped to give me a different perspective on the whole thing.


So far I'm having fun with Nayr's deck, even though it's only been a day. I already made some pretty big discoveries and realized I probably knew more than I was giving myself credit for (and made clear some pretty obvious stuff I should've knownee below). At 20 cards a day, 5000 total, should take me almost 2/3 of a year to finish, so I'll check back then lol.
Nah, I'll prolly end up changing the cards per day at some point.



*One thing about being in a Japanese class. We used Japanese for Busy People as our textbook, and the teacher stuck to it pretty rigidly. That book, and the class, did not cover the plain/dictionary form. Ever. Not once. I even accidentally used the plain form for adjectives once or twice and the teacher corrected me and told me not to use it, even if I used the right word.

After using Nayr's deck a bit, I kept seeing stuff like 行った and was like, "whaaa? Why no 行きました？" So I went over to Tae Kim and looked it up. Yeah. Plain form. Pretty basic, had no idea.

So clearly there are some pretty big and obvious gaps in my knowledge that, at this point, really shouldn't be there. And that's one of the reasons I found reading anything to be so frustrating. I have no idea how I missed something so simple, but at the same time am kinda irked that the class I was paying good money each month for totally neglected to cover it.


But yeah, I've been doing a lot of things the wrong way up til now. But now I think I got a process and a mindset that will work. So thank you for that guys. Really.

JFBP doesn't cover plain form?!?! Crazy....

I feel your pain frosty. I have a poor aptitude for language too and learn best from reading. And I come up empty when someone asks me to "say something in Japanese". But saying things in Japanese is a skill that you have to practice like listening and reading. I prefer to practice other skills, hence the coming up blank. Come to think of it though, I'd probably come up blank if someone asked me to say something in english too...

Anyway, one thing that's been helping me a lot is this sentence gloss anki add-on. If you are going to use nayr's deck, just run sentence gloss on the sentences and it'll add definitions for all of the words. That way you can add them to the bottom of your cards and you won't have to look anything up.

frosty_rain Wrote:Although I pretty much already do that, just with anime. Problem is, when it comes to subs, I mostly read instead of listen. I try to do both, but usually end up either tuning out one or the other.

Are you using english subs? If so, I can't imagine you could learn much from watching with them, but if you an understand the Japanese subs at all, they would be useful.

There's also an idea I'm working on where you gloss the subtitles for a show and then pre-learn all of the vocabulary before you watch the show. It's a more targeted method of vocabulary acquisition where you only have to learn a subset of vocabulary needed for a specific task. I'm happy to go into more detail if this sounds appealing, just ask.

frosty_rain Wrote:*One thing about being in a Japanese class. We used Japanese for Busy People as our textbook, and the teacher stuck to it pretty rigidly. That book, and the class, did not cover the plain/dictionary form. Ever. Not once. I even accidentally used the plain form for adjectives once or twice and the teacher corrected me and told me not to use it, even if I used the right word.

Ha, I took a class that used JFBP too. I have a few volumes in my bookshelf if anyone wants one cheap

Quote:Come to think of it though, I'd probably come up blank if someone asked me to say something in english too...

Actually, now that I think about it, we had a French transfer student back in high school. We'd never had a foreign student in school before, so it was a pretty big deal; a lot of people in class were really excited about it and gathered around her and said, "Hey, can you say something in French? Just one sentence plix?" I don't remember her ever saying anything, she seemed kinda confused, almost shell shocked. Guess it is hard to come up with something when you're put on the spot like that.


*I downloaded Sentence Gloss, took me a bit to figure out how to download it and get it set up, but now that I have it's a very nice addition.

Arupan Wrote:

john555 Wrote:It's a great book. It was written by two university professors with extensive teaching experience and was in print for many years. I taught myself the nuts and bolts of the language with this book and have zero problems dealing with other textbooks. Take a look and judge for your self.

That book was first published in 1958. Japanese language has changed a lot since then. Not to mention that linguistic research in Japan has started rather recently... How can you even claim they have "extensive teaching experience?" I presume you don't know these people, right?

The fact stands that I've repaired some examples from that textbook in at least 3 of your threads. Your book is outdated and the examples in it sound weird. Good luck achieving high level of proficiency with it.

Did you know that the additional kanji in RTK3 are in large part based on a kanji frequency list first published in 1963 by the National Japanese Language Research Institute? They had begun their research in 1956. RTK3 is largely based on a list from 50 years ago. In the introduction to RTK3 Heisig explains how he came up with the additional characters for RTK3 by taking kanji from the "names" list published in 1990 not already included in RTK1 and then adding kanji from the list published in 1963 . Now, Heisig says he did cross-check some of the characters to see if they also appeared in something called JIS-1, but clearly the framework he used was based on a list from 50 years ago.

If material from 50+ years ago is so terrible, then surely there must be more recent kanji-frequency lists that could have been consulted in compiling RTK3.

[RawToast]

Quote:*One thing about being in a Japanese class. We used Japanese for Busy People as our textbook, and the teacher stuck to it pretty rigidly. That book, and the class, did not cover the plain/dictionary form. Ever. Not once. I even accidentally used the plain form for adjectives once or twice and the teacher corrected me and told me not to use it, even if I used the right word.

JfBP does include the dictionary form, it's in the verb conjugation tables in the back.

I have the same issue as you with classes. The teacher won't teach plain form until the '4th year' (this is an evening class). I found it strange to teach conjugation of the te form and not include the plain past at the same time -- it's the same rule! I only go to force myself to do speaking and handwriting practice (oh and the oh-so-shiny certificate)... I seem to be the guy at the back who only answers when no-one else can

With what you'll add to your passive knowledge from Core5k, you might find your classes may become too easy -- take this as a good sign of progress!

.

Arupan Wrote:I helped you a couple of times cause you seemed like a nice guy but don't expect the same attitude as before. Not after what you wrote in my topic.

It doesn't seem to me like your attitude changes based on who you are responding to -- you take the same "I know everything, bow down before me" stance in many of the posts you write.

For something slightly on topic, skip the first text block.

yudantaiteki Wrote:

Arupan Wrote:I helped you a couple of times cause you seemed like a nice guy but don't expect the same attitude as before. Not after what you wrote in my topic.

It doesn't seem to me like your attitude changes based on who you are responding to -- you take the same "I know everything, bow down before me" stance in many of the posts you write.

To be fair john555 tends to take a similar attitude, with a bit of "my dusty old books are better than yours" sprinkled in.
An argument between the two of them would lay waste to this thread, so if I might push to something closer to the original topic...
(To be fair to the both of them, they do have interesting things to say and are helpful to the community; they're just stubborn when it comes to certain topics.)

In regards to listening practice, is there any good way to go about it beyond just listening to the same thing over and over again? I edited Nayr's core5k sentence deck for listening comprehension (only sound on the front, text on the back) and have been watching NHK教育 on NIJI, but I have no idea if I'm just hitting my head against a wall or if this is something that would work. (Hopefully, any answers would be helpful to the OP as well).

Also, is there a good way to practice production skills just enough that using Lang8 would actually be helpful? Reading is fairly easy to me, but I just can't seem to form sentences.

I'd like to take the N1 next year, so I'm trying to work on the things I suck at; I'm grateful for any advice.

sholum Wrote:(To be fair to the both of them, they do have interesting things to say and are helpful to the community; they're just stubborn when it comes to certain topics.)

To be clear, I am not challenging Arupan's Japanese ability; he's one of the best on the forum as far as Japanese knowledge. It's just his attitude.

What's the source of the audio for Nayr's deck?
I linked this thread before - it might be useful to you: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid201739

Watching TV/movies with Japanese subtitles is pretty great for listening, if you can do it easily from where ever you are. Better than just relying on your ears (I have seen studies that showed this and it matches well with my own experience).

For production - mine is basically rubbish too, so take with a grain of salt, but recently I've been doing creative writing in Japanese without worrying about having people checking it or whether it's perfectly correct. Starting off, all of my sentences were about five words long, but the further I go the more complex they get and the easier they are to write. I am not sure if this is ultimately a good approach, but I'm pretty allergic to Lang-8 and have written more in the last few weeks than I had in the last three years or so of my Lang-8 account.

edit: on second thought...

@Aikynaro

From Nayr128's thread, 'New deck I created, others might find useful.' (http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=12092):

Nayr182 Wrote:

aldebrn Wrote:

Nayr182 Wrote:**Have started the process of adding native Japanese voice to all cards. Will update deck when completed.**

Curious about how you swung this. Kidnapped a busload of Japanese tourists?

My wife is Japanese, just have to suck up a bit more than usual :p

So, I'm assuming all of the audio was done by his wife.

Thanks for the tips, I've never actually tried subs2srs, but I do have some shows I could use with it.
I'll try writing sentences on my own, I think; it might not be optimal, but maybe playing around with sentences I've pulled from books might give me the enough of a jump that any corrections I get from Lang-8 will actually be useful (assuming I ever post there).

Thank you.

@yudantaiteki
I didn't mean to accuse you of doing so; I hope I didn't sound like I was. I agree that Arupan is very knowledgeable (and can be a bit too passionate at times). I just wanted to be sure that no fights broke out, and the parenthetic statement you quoted was my attempt to ensure that I didn't sound like I was accusing them of only being good for thread derailment.

.

Arupan Wrote:Some people like RTK. I don't. It's a matter of opinion.

I like Mr Heisig but I don't like his books - they're so PRIMITIVE: 古 is a tombstone, 里 is a computer, and 習う is a scary clown! I had nightmares three nights in a row when I read it.

I share Mr Heisig's religious compassion, though.
I love all my neighbours: yudantaiteki, Arupan, john555, RawToast お巡りさん and so on and on.
But if I were to trust anybody, I'd choose yudantaiteki - he's a university professor, knows hell of a lot about the Japanese language, and even plays computer games in Japanese!