I'm currently reading thru Tae Kim's guide for basic grammar. In Ch 1 (state of being), Q&A exercise, I'm a bit stuck at Q5 (link here):

Ｑ５）　これ？
Ａ５）　ううん、それじゃない。 (object is away from the speaker)

I wrote down the answer for this as "あれじゃない" based on the cue "object is away from the speaker", turns out it was wrong, but I couldn't figure out why. So, I tried looking at this and this but I still can't figure out a simple way to pick between "それ" over "あれ" (or vice-versa)... is distance to the speaker/listener the only factor?

If it is equally distant from both the speaker and the listener it is "are". In your example it can not be "are" because the speaker says "kore", so this means it is nearer to him than the listener. If it was equally distant from both he would have said "are" in the first hinstance

Distant from the listener here means "more distant from the listener than from the speaker"

cophnia61 Wrote:If it is equally distant from both the speaker and the listener it is "are". In your example it can not be "are" because the speaker says "kore", so this means it is nearer to him than the listener. If it was equally distant from both he would have said "are" in the first hinstance

Thanks a lot. So, as a rule of thumb, if speaker uses "あれ", the listener also uses "あれ". Otherwise, they keep alternating between "それ" and "これ". Is that right?

cophnia61 Wrote:If it is equally distant from both the speaker and the listener it is "are". In your example it can not be "are" because the speaker says "kore", so this means it is nearer to him than the listener. If it was equally distant from both he would have said "are" in the first hinstance

This is kind of confusing though--it's really about vicinity. If something is in your vicinity, you call it これ. If something is in the vicinity of the person you're speaking to, you call it それ. If it's not in either, you call it あれ.

Both それ and あれ would be 'that' in English--we don't distinguish between the two, which is why it's confusing.

Tzadeck Wrote:it's really about vicinity. If something is in your vicinity, you call it これ. If something is in the vicinity of the person you're speaking to, you call it それ. If it's not in either, you call it あれ.

Thanks, just makes me a bit curious though, if you're talking to someone face-to-face "vicinity" would be something like within your arm's reach right?

Tzadeck Wrote:Both それ and あれ would be 'that' in English--we don't distinguish between the two, which is why it's confusing.

Within the language itself is this distinction really important? Would it be a minor mistake or a meaning-changing one if I were to confuse one for the other?

Based on what I understand so far,
If I want to say "pass that (in listener's vicinity) to me" I'd have to use "それ".
If I want to say "take this (in my vicinity) to me" I'd have to use "これ".
If I want to talk about some other object (say a painting on a far-side wall), we'd both have to use "あれ".
Is this correct?

tameshi Wrote:Within the language itself is this distinction really important? Would it be a minor mistake or a meaning-changing one if I were to confuse one for the other?

I find that most of the time meaning-changing happens when you least expect it. I've lived in Japan for a bit more than six years, and the majority of the time I'm confident that the other person understands what I mean. And, likewise, that I understand what is being said to me. But every once in a while things fall off track, and it's sometimes hard to figure out where.

I remember one of these specifically because my girlfriend got mad at me about it. I told her that I was going to have dinner with a friend on Thursday. Then, when Thursday rolled around I asked her what she was going to do for dinner. I was just curious, of course, since I was going out with my friend. But somehow I gave her the wrong impression, and she was hazy about which day I was meeting my friend, so she thought I was asking what she wanted to do together--that is, whether we should cook/go out/order. We didn't realize we had mis-communicated until I went to leave the house, and she got up to go with me. Of course, this whole confusion wouldn't be possible except because you can drop subjects in Japanese.

What's weird about it is that as a non-native speaker you're always doing your best to make an overall meaning in your head--it's like a theory. And once you get stuck on a theory it can be hard to change your mind based on little hints in the conversation; you just sort of brush them aside in favor of your theory. My girlfriend must have said things that gave away that she thought we were going out together, but I just didn't notice them.

Anyway, most of the time それ and あれ obviously wouldn't cause a different in meaning. But sometimes they would, in a situation you weren't expecting, so it's best to have them down pat and not be sloppy about them. Also, it does sound really odd to native speakers if you get them wrong, even if the meaning is not lost.

Tzadeck Wrote:this whole confusion wouldn't be possible except because you can drop subjects in Japanese.

Tzadeck Wrote:so it's best to have them down pat and not be sloppy about them. Also, it does sound really odd to native speakers if you get them wrong, even if the meaning is not lost.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind (although I'm quite a ways away from holding actual conversations).

Another thing to note about あれ is that it's often used to refer to sensitive or uncomfortable topics, even when it refers to something in the vicinity of both parties. For example, women use it to refer to their periods. People also frequently use it to refer to undesirable outcomes (you'll often hear this in the phrase あれでしょう). While noticing that you deliberately failed to tie your shoes, for instance, someone could say そうすると、あれでしょう, indicating that you'll trip or otherwise injure yourself because you didn't tie your shoes.

tameshi Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:Both それ and あれ would be 'that' in English--we don't distinguish between the two, which is why it's confusing.

Within the language itself is this distinction really important? Would it be a minor mistake or a meaning-changing one if I were to confuse one for the other?

Based on what I understand so far,
If I want to say "pass that (in listener's vicinity) to me" I'd have to use "それ".
If I want to say "take this (in my vicinity) to me" I'd have to use "これ".
If I want to talk about some other object (say a painting on a far-side wall), we'd both have to use "あれ".
Is this correct?

Sounds right. It definitely can be a meaning-changing mistake because any time you use a word like "that", the anus is on the listener to determine exactly which object or idea you're referring to. Using それ instead of あれ or vice versa can lean them down the wrong path.

vileru Wrote:Another thing to note about あれ is that it's often used to refer to sensitive or uncomfortable topics, even when it refers to something in the vicinity of both parties.

thanks, TIL one more thing.
I still can't get why you would want to do it tho... this is plenty confusing as is. Is this kind of usage very common? I can do without it, as in refer to topic directly?

yudantaiteki Wrote:... the anus is on the listener ... (emphasis added)

Haven't heard this one before.

tameshi Wrote:I still can't get why you would want to do it tho... this is plenty confusing as is. Is this kind of usage very common? I can do without it, as in refer to topic directly?

The reason for using it is usually to avoid embarrassing yourself or someone else. We have similar linguistic conventions in English too. For example, when talking about someone's alcoholism in public, most people probably wouldn't say something like "my dad's alcoholism." Instead, they'd say, "my dad's problem," or some other indirect way of referring to it.

So, yes, you can refer to topics directly, but you risk coming across as blunt and indiscreet.

tameshi Wrote:

vileru Wrote:Another thing to note about あれ is that it's often used to refer to sensitive or uncomfortable topics, even when it refers to something in the vicinity of both parties.

thanks, TIL one more thing.
I still can't get why you would want to do it tho... this is plenty confusing as is. Is this kind of usage very common? I can do without it, as in refer to topic directly?

"Excuse me for a minute, my stomach is upset" vs "Wait right there, I have a horrid case of diarrhea, so I'm defecating every 15 minutes."

vileru Wrote:The reason for using it is usually to avoid embarrassing yourself or someone else.

vileru Wrote:So, yes, you can refer to topics directly, but you risk coming across as blunt and indiscreet.

Ok, gotcha. So "あれ" is like the catch all for some words/phrases etc that one would rather not say out loud. Thanks!

Also don't forget that things change slightly if you're talking about information rather than physical objects. There あれ refers to something known to both speaker and listener (you can think of it metaphorically as being the same distance away from both people).

yudantaiteki Wrote:Also don't forget that things change slightly if you're talking about information rather than physical objects. There あれ refers to something known to both speaker and listener (you can think of it metaphorically as being the same distance away from both people).

Whoa. The nuances to this thing are endless. .
Thanks, will try to remember that as well. Not sure how successful I'll be.