I think it might be possible with no life, jlpt books, and anki drills all day. I did it in nearly 2
years, but that was with being in Japan, watching every episode of Friends in Japanese, 15-25 hours of study a week, and a girlfriend who doesn`t speak English.

If it makes you study harder then go for it!

Echoing other posters... laying out a master study plan before you've actually started studying and know which methods work best for you isn't going to work very well. It took me like 6 years or something crazy to figure out how to actually study effectively, but once I found that process I was able to progress fairly quickly.

The other piece of your plan that seems a little bit ill-suited is that you're not structuring your goals well. N2 is a fine goal, and it might even be achievable in the time frame you lay out. However, laying out stepping stone goals is very important. For someone like you I would suggest basing it around the time frame for completing study materials and taking the JLPT. This will help you get a sense for whether or not your overall time frame for N2 is reasonable. It could be, but without knowing the time frames for things leading up to that it's impossible to tell.

Also, trying to estimate time frames for completing different tasks based on number of hours of study is just not really possible at this point. You have no concept of how easy or hard different things will be. You budget kana taking 25 hours(way too long), but then underestimate reading practice substantially. At this point I wouldn't bother trying to figure out how many hours. Focus on the time frame of a few weeks. Doing your study plan 6 weeks at a time seems like a pretty good thing to target at the beginning, and then you can extend this to 12 weeks as your goals start to become larger.

Nukemarine's guide, which I think is stickied(or you can Google for it) is a pretty good place to start in on studying. After you've gotten the very basics under your belt and have studied up to a very basic level of skill with certain things you'll start to make better judgments about time frames.

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:Rather, I think that people starting out would be well served by understanding the enormity of the task, and being prepared for it..

Just a nit-picky English thing, but "enormity" doesn't mean large or huge. It means, "the great or extreme scale, seriousness, or extent of something perceived as bad or morally wrong."

wildtanuki Wrote:watching every episode of Friends in Japanese, 15-25 hours of study a week, and a girlfriend who doesn`t speak English.

oh... time to look for multi-audio stuff. Any idea if South Park has Japanese audio tracks? I've been meaning to watch some of the earlier seasons again...

wildtanuki Wrote:If it makes you study harder then go for it!

haha, helps to have a good challenging goal.

tameshi Wrote:oh... time to look for multi-audio stuff. Any idea if South Park has Japanese audio tracks? I've been meaning to watch some of the earlier seasons again...

I haven't bothered to confirm this but I've heard through the grapevine that yes it does, and that Trey Parker does the voicing for his own characters.

Edit:
I checked, Japanese dubbing does exist, Trey Parker does not do his own voices.

erlog Wrote:It took me like 6 years or something crazy to figure out how to actually study effectively, but once I found that process I was able to progress fairly quickly.

Could you share a few tips for someone like me that's just starting out? Any common pitfalls to avoid etc?

erlog Wrote:For someone like you I would suggest basing it around the time frame for completing study materials and taking the JLPT. This will help you get a sense for whether or not your overall time frame for N2 is reasonable.

Thanks for the tip, I intend to make adjustments (as already from N2->N3) based on my learning/retention speed. The time frame of one year is a ballpark number so that I can schedule hours needed to study and stuff like that. Also helps me see how good my estimates themselves were.

erlog Wrote:You budget kana taking 25 hours(way too long), but then underestimate reading practice substantially. At this point I wouldn't bother trying to figure out how many hours. Focus on the time frame of a few weeks. Doing your study plan 6 weeks at a time seems like a pretty good thing to target at the beginning, and then you can extend this to 12 weeks as your goals start to become larger.

Nukemarine's guide, which I think is stickied(or you can Google for it) is a pretty good place to start in on studying. After you've gotten the very basics under your belt and have studied up to a very basic level of skill with certain things you'll start to make better judgments about time frames.

Thanks again for the specific advice. I'll start with a rough weekly plan (esp before I start Vocab and Kanji) as I go along and see where that takes me. I also liked the idea of increasing study time over the weeks, should help me cope with the time required for reviews and such. I'm not sure if I can put in more than 18 hrs a week, but I guess I can squeeze in some study time during holidays/off-days.

tameshi Wrote:

erlog Wrote:It took me like 6 years or something crazy to figure out how to actually study effectively, but once I found that process I was able to progress fairly quickly.

Could you share a few tips for someone like me that's just starting out? Any common pitfalls to avoid etc?

The best advice I can give in this department is to study every day. Momentum and routine is incredibly important. Studying more often is better than studying for more time in almost every case I can think of. Studying 1 hour a day is much better than studying 7 hours every Wednesday. I started from Japanese classes in college, and they were held more often but not often enough. I should have been practicing on my own on days I didn't have class.

The other important thing to do is budget study time and practice time separately. Study is focused things like running flashcards in Anki and studying new grammar from textbooks. Practice is interacting with native material in some way or talking to someone in Japanese. Study is important for moving forward, and practice is important for reinforcing the things you're learning when you're studying.

Set your study time to be the amount you can do as the minimum you'd be able to do on a day that you're busy with other things. For many people this is between 30 minutes and 1 hour. This is time you're carving out every day specifically for study activities. This study time is non-negotiable. Unless you have a very good excuse like a death in the family, are in a coma, or just had surgery you should make sure to at least complete your daily minimum.

On days where you have more time than that minimum you should not study more. Instead you should practice more. Go make use of the things you're learning. Watch anime with Japanese subtitles or no subtitles. Read manga. Play a video game in Japanese. Talk to a language partner on Skype. Any of these activities are okay, and they can expand to fill time you have available. Look up words if you feel like it, but it's okay not to because you're pushing yourself forward during your study time anyway.

On days where you don't have time to practice, then just do your minimum, and feel content that you were able to do that.

Now, this can become a bit of a grind, and that's why I talked about smaller goals more often being better. You want to kind of always be a few weeks away from some milestone like completing a textbook, completing the next 2000 new Core flashcards, or whatever the material is you're working from. Your long term goals then become set via the JLPT, and you work your way forward that way.

@ erlog
Thanks! That's very good advice for someone using anki and not wanting to get stuck with a crapload of reviews if you find yourself with an extra free weekend for study. In those cases, I usually end up going in circles trying to figure out what to do with my extra time. Having a queue of native materials ready for practice would allow me use my time more wisely.

tameshi Wrote:Any idea if South Park has Japanese audio tracks? I've been meaning to watch some of the earlier seasons again...

For most episodes of the first 8 seasons there are dubs. Afterwards it's subtitles only. If you search for SP in katakana you should easily find sites where you can view the episodes.

erlog Wrote:Now, this can become a bit of a grind, and that's why I talked about smaller goals more often being better. You want to kind of always be a few weeks away from some milestone like completing a textbook, completing the next 2000 new Core flashcards, or whatever the material is you're working from. Your long term goals then become set via the JLPT, and you work your way forward that way.

Very good thoughts. I am doing what you're describing and I think it's working quite well for me. While playing the video game, I insert new words I encounter that are not totally obscure into my Anki deck, which I then review to get the new words in my long-term memory. However unlike during my Core6k project I only do 10 "new" cards a day which keeps the reviews (and thus Anki time) at minimum. It allows me to "see tangible progress" while not taking away too much from actually experiencing the language in the game, which I find ultimately more important since it allows me to better understand the 6k words I have already "learned". I have managed to get to Core6k+"1k" using this methodology, pretty much without even noticing that I have already learned a thousand new words. The vocabulary is also very relevant to me, since I encounter the words in the game itself.

RandomQuotes Wrote:I haven't bothered to confirm this but I've heard through the grapevine that yes it does, and that Trey Parker does the voicing for his own characters.

Edit:
I checked, Japanese dubbing does exist, Trey Parker does not do his own voices.

Cool, thanks going out of your way to confirm that. In your opinion, would it be a decent way to get some exposure to spoken language? I understand that it may be informal/slang language... but I'm ok with it for getting "used to" hearing the tone of the spoken language...

Betelgeuzah Wrote:While playing the video game, I insert new words I encounter that are not totally obscure into my Anki deck, which I then review to get the new words in my long-term memory. However unlike during my Core6k project I only do 10 "new" cards a day which keeps the reviews (and thus Anki time) at minimum.

Interesting, gotta try this bit myself later... its quite a way away though. Thanks!

Hi guys, I am in a similar predicament to the OP, so I decided against making a new thread.
I am choosing between the N2 and N3 exam which will be in approx 70 days from now.

Here's some information about my current progress:
I have almost completed RTK lite - All of the N2 kanji.
I have completed around 2k words of the core 6k deck, going at a pace of 50 new cards per day, so I'm most likely going to hit 5.5k cards by the time I take the exam.
Almost completed Genki 2 - so have ~N4 grammar - looking at getting Tobira next then working through the N2 Kanzen Master.
My listening skills are almost non existent, this is something I will need to work on a great amount.

I have made a lot of progress in core/rtk in the past month or so because I have recently finished university, however, I start a 9-5 job next week and I'm unsure if I'll have the energy levels to keep up this level of study.

I am sure N3 will be doable but I know only JLPT 1 and 2 are actually worth their weight, so was wondering whether it would be best to aim for N2 or just take the N3 and then move on to N2 in the summer of 2015.

I'm not sure where the whole 'Only N1 and N2 are worth doing/are recognised' thing comes from. Of course, lots of jobs in Japan ask for N1 or N2, but unless you're only taking the JLPT to get a job, it doesn't really matter what employers ask for, right? There's no point spending good money on a test you are fairly sure you will fail just because someone on the internet says its not 'worth anything'. Equally, if you are looking for a job and need N1 or N2 there is no point taking either test before you are mildly confident that you might pass them. That's just throwing your money away.

Also, memorising a whole heap of cards won't allow you to pass the test on their own. Much of the JLPT is about grasping the overall meaning of the readings, and being able to differentiate between different types of speech in the listening test. Two skills you won't learn from SRS.

Satom Wrote:Hi guys, I am in a similar predicament to the OP, so I decided against making a new thread.
I am choosing between the N2 and N3 exam which will be in approx 70 days from now.

Here's some information about my current progress:
I have almost completed RTK lite - All of the N2 kanji.
I have completed around 2k words of the core 6k deck, going at a pace of 50 new cards per day, so I'm most likely going to hit 5.5k cards by the time I take the exam.
Almost completed Genki 2 - so have ~N4 grammar - looking at getting Tobira next then working through the N2 Kanzen Master.
My listening skills are almost non existent, this is something I will need to work on a great amount.

I have made a lot of progress in core/rtk in the past month or so because I have recently finished university, however, I start a 9-5 job next week and I'm unsure if I'll have the energy levels to keep up this level of study.

I am sure N3 will be doable but I know only JLPT 1 and 2 are actually worth their weight, so was wondering whether it would be best to aim for N2 or just take the N3 and then move on to N2 in the summer of 2015.

If you want to take a test, try N3. You won't be able to close the gap for N2 in 2 months. Even N3 might be a stretch if you are not well rounded. You'd better take a look at some of the sample tests beforehand.

Satom Wrote:...
My listening skills are almost non existent, this is something I will need to work on a great amount.
...

It sounds to me like the biggest bang for your buck will come from working on your speaking. IMHO being able to understand what people are saying to you and each other is more important than passing any exam.

Satom Wrote:Here's some information about my current progress:
I have almost completed RTK lite - All of the N2 kanji.
I have completed around 2k words of the core 6k deck, going at a pace of 50 new cards per day, so I'm most likely going to hit 5.5k cards by the time I take the exam.
Almost completed Genki 2 - so have ~N4 grammar - looking at getting Tobira next then working through the N2 Kanzen Master.

Sorry to butt-in, but could you let me know how long you took to complete the 2k words and N4 grammar? A rough guesstimate is fine, I think I can use it to adjust my own plans and to get an idea of what's waiting out there...

N2 in a year is rough, no matter how you look at it. In a European language I'd say sure, go for it, but in Japanese I doubt it's doable.

As far as the "N3 or equivalent in one year/750 hours" correction, that shouldn't be a problem, but you should aim for the "equivalent". I don't think aiming for passing the test is practical (unless you need the actual certification). If your goal is to have a practical knowledge of Japanese on the level described as N3 (here: https://www.jlpt.jp/e/about/levelsummary.html ), I think that's possible as long as the "material" in question is stuff you're interested in and need to be able to understand, rather than the stuff that's in the actual test. I've checked out the material in the practice tests that are online, and it's very textbookey. It doesn't sound like actual Japanese I'm familiar with from actual Japanese media and blogs.

I think the only way to pass the test would be to prepare specifically for that test, and that won't make you actually speak Japanese.

P.S. If your goal of N3 in a year is more important than the eventual goal of native level Japanese, then, since Rtk would take up at least a third of those 750 hours, you should either skip it or do RtK light.

erlog Wrote:

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:Rather, I think that people starting out would be well served by understanding the enormity of the task, and being prepared for it..

Just a nit-picky English thing, but "enormity" doesn't mean large or huge. It means, "the great or extreme scale, seriousness, or extent of something perceived as bad or morally wrong."

No dictionary definition will ever teach you how to use a word properly. Imho, the sentence you're quoting is flawless.

Besides, http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/enormity

3. greatness of size, scope, extent, or influence; immensity:
Usage note
3. Enormity has been in frequent and continuous use in the sense “immensity” since the 18th century: "The enormity of the task was overwhelming."
...
British dictionary
Usage note
In modern English, it is common to talk about the enormity of something such as a task or a problem, but one should not talk about the enormity of an object or area: distribution is a problem because of India's enormous size (not India's enormity)

Vempele Wrote:Besides, http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/enormity

3. greatness of size, scope, extent, or influence; immensity:
Usage note
3. Enormity has been in frequent and continuous use in the sense “immensity” since the 18th century: "The enormity of the task was overwhelming."
...
British dictionary
Usage note
In modern English, it is common to talk about the enormity of something such as a task or a problem, but one should not talk about the enormity of an object or area: distribution is a problem because of India's enormous size (not India's enormity)

I guess they can teach you a thing or two, if it's the right dictionary.

M-W's Dictionary of English Usage says this:
"Quite often 'enormity' will be used to suggest a size that is beyond normal bounds, a size that is unexpectedly great...One common figurative use blends together the notions of immoderateness, excess, and mostrousness to suggest a size that is daunting or overwhelming. Writers since the last half of the 19th century have used the interplay of the notions of enormous size and of wickedness or outrageousness to give their uses of the word a richess of meaning that they have directed in various way."

"The reasons for stigmatizing the size sense of 'enormity' are not known. It was simply characterized without explanation by Henry Bradley, editor of the E volume of the OED (1893), in these words: 'this use is now regarded as incorrect.'"

"We have seen that there is no clear basis for the 'rule' at all. We suggest that you follow the writers rather than the critics: writers use 'enormity' with a richness and subtlety that the critics have failed to take account of. The stigmatized sense is entirely standard and has been for more than a century and a half."

For a forum on Japanese, y'all spend some enormous time on English usage.

[Zgarbas]

I know it's intentional misuse, but I cringed seeing that. I think it's because enormous is usually perceived as a big word, so its misuse bothers the flow more than if it were simple language or common mistakes.

'enormity of the task' is a totally legit use of the word, though =/.

If you really want to get a jump-start on the learning, I recommend committing the kana to memory immediately (today!) and then consuming vocabulary in parallel with Heisig. When I started out in Japanese so long ago, I was frustrated at my lack of kana recognition. I decided one day to "just do it." I spent three hours on non-stop study of hiragana--all of them--and for some reason, it worked. I don't even have a particularly good memory. But after those three hours, the hiragana were fixed in place. (I wish I had done the same with the katakana. Those took a long time to master, and I still miss one or two.) After you learn the kana, replace any romaji-based study materials with kana equivalents.

Heisig is not for everyone. But if you are the Heisig type, then learning the vocabulary in conjunction with Heisig (RTK lite or the full book) is a must. It sounds like you don't have ready access to Japanese speakers. If not, then you need some other method to reinforce the vocabulary. Learning them in the context of sentences is good, but tying them to glyphs that are more than piles of meaningless brushstrokes is also a reinforcement.

First off, sorry for the delay in reply, I'm checking this thread only intermittently, but thanks for all the advice and pointers.

Stansfield123 Wrote:As far as the "N3 or equivalent in one year/750 hours" correction, that shouldn't be a problem, but you should aim for the "equivalent". I don't think aiming for passing the test is practical (unless you need the actual certification).

Yeah, as I see it now, the certification is not really useful to me(apart from the sell-ability factor of actually having the cert). Sometime down in the near/mid future (2-5yrs) it'll be useful... I guess. So I'm not really concerned about the test, but would like to make it to a level close to the test so that I can quickly dust my skills and take the test if need be. In order to not dull my skills, I plan to put my acquired skills to use by reading some news, chatting with people on lang-8. I also plan to read raw manga, maybe watch a short series/drama without subtitles. I can hardly wait

Stansfield123 Wrote:If your goal is to have a practical knowledge of Japanese on the level described as N3 (here: https://www.jlpt.jp/e/about/levelsummary.html ), I think that's possible as long as the "material" in question is stuff you're interested in and need to be able to understand, rather than the stuff that's in the actual test. I've checked out the material in the practice tests that are online, and it's very textbookey. It doesn't sound like actual Japanese I'm familiar with from actual Japanese media and blogs.

From a business/job point of view, yes, I'd prefer a practical grasp of the language (enough to communicate with co-workers and go about daily life situations) over a certification as translation/interpretation isn't my primary function. It is one of those nice to have things that'll provide some visibility and chance for professional advancement.

Stansfield123 Wrote:I think the only way to pass the test would be to prepare specifically for that test, and that won't make you actually speak Japanese.

How difficult is it to go the other way, as in prep for general understanding and then take the test if needed? I'd prefer this route over rote memorization for the test anyday.

Stansfield123 Wrote:P.S. If your goal of N3 in a year is more important than the eventual goal of native level Japanese, then, since Rtk would take up at least a third of those 750 hours, you should either skip it or do RtK light.

Nope it is note. N3-in-a-year is more of a challenge to myself... more of a self-discipline thing, really. I really want to utilize those 2-4 hrs of extra free time a day that I'll have over the next 12-14 months due to some downtime in my day job.

timaki Wrote:If you really want to get a jump-start on the learning, I recommend committing the kana to memory immediately (today!) and then consuming vocabulary in parallel with Heisig.

I spent about 5-6 days on the kana and I can more-or-less read all of them (still miss a few, most notable the "so" and "n" in katakana and "ta/da" and "ni" in hiragana when doing the online quiz/drill). However my vocab and grammar is still very weak, so I've started doing the Tae Kim basic grammar. I now know the words from Tae Kim's grammar guide and some basic constructs (finished the adjectives part the other day, going with verbs now). Kanji recog/reading is worse still: I can get a few more now, but still <10. I'm not actively working on it too. For now, I want to get the grammar & vocab down so that I can start a bit of listening/reading.

timaki Wrote:Heisig is not for everyone. But if you are the Heisig type, then learning the vocabulary in conjunction with Heisig (RTK lite or the full book) is a must.

Could you elaborate/recommend any thread where I can get more info on howto go about it? Would it mesh well with the Tae Kim guide that I'm doing now?

timaki Wrote:It sounds like you don't have ready access to Japanese speakers. If not, then you need some other method to reinforce the vocabulary. Learning them in the context of sentences is good, but tying them to glyphs that are more than piles of meaningless brushstrokes is also a reinforcement.

Nope, as of now I don't have access to native speakers or listening material. But I plan to start with JapanesePod101 and Lang8 as soon as I have the basic grammar and some beginner vocab down. I guess it'll be a few more weeks before I can start the JapanesePod101 and about a couple of months before Lang8. I've made progress, but I doubt it is sufficient to start out with these things right now...