I was asked what these two sentences mean by a friend.
俺が叔父さんに恋愛を半ば強いられているような、半端なものじゃないのだ。彼女の人生における『束縛』は。
Apparently the context is as follows:
These two sentences cross the protagonist's mind while the girl being referenced (彼女) is telling the protag about how she is being heavily pressured to be an upstanding student (by studying a lot, etc) in order to uphold their family name.
Extra context: The protagonist was previously told by his uncle to choose between: 1) get a girlfriend, 2) get a job, 3) lose half his allowance.

My interpretation was: "Her life shackles aren't something as half-assed/trivial as me getting half-forced to love by my uncle".

Someone more experienced than me explained it as: "It's not like some half-assed thing where I am trying to force love half-heartily onto my uncle. What is restraining her life is."
So 俺が叔父さんに恋愛を半ば強いられているような is saying "as if/like if I were to jokingly/half heartily force love on to my uncle".
"As in force some gay love down on his uncle. Or at least give him the illusion of it"

So our interpretations of "俺が叔父さんに恋愛を半ば強いられている" differ.

I believe this is an indirect passive sentence (also known as "adversative passive", though the situation is not always negative). And my understanding is these sentences describe an event (X) involving an action by someone or something (Y) which affects another person (Z) and are of the form: Z(Receiver)は Y(Agent)に.... (from the Dictionary of Basic Grammar)

Some examples are as:
私は兄にケーキを食べられた。 The(/My) cake was eaten by my brother (and it upset me)
So 兄 is the agent of the verb -> "兄 ate the cake" and this event affected 私.
原田さんは奥さんに高いコートを買われた。 Mr Harada’s wife bought an expensive coat (and he is unhappy)
So 奥さん is the agent of the verb -> "wife buys a coat" and this event affected 原田さん.

Carrying this over to our sentence, "俺は叔父さんに恋愛を半ば強いられている".
叔父さん is the agent of the verb -> "Uncle is half-forcing love" and this event affects 俺. I suppose the question now is if it's possible to make the jump to "叔父さん is half-forcing 俺 to love". (In retrospect, most of my confusion comes from 強いる being used with 恋愛 as a direct object.)

Or should I be treating this as a causative-passive sentence? The verb isn't in the causative form but since 強いる means "force, compel, coerce", it may make up for it...?? (< Making stuff up lol).
Eg: 夏子は和夫に酒を飲んませられた。 Natsuko was made to drink sake by Kazuo

Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks.

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I thought I did read it like that? But I'm not sure about the clause which he compare her life's shackles to. (i.e I'm not sure what 俺が叔父さんに恋愛を半ば強いられている means)

I suppose another mistake I could have made is making 俺が叔父さんに恋愛を半ば強いられているような modify 半端もの when it shouldn't. So the result would be along the lines of: Her life shackles, like how I'm ..??.., is not some half-baked thing.

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So it's: The "chains" in her life are no laughing matter.
[Her "chains" are] similar to how I was half-forced to get a girlfriend.

"I am being half-forced to get a girlfriend" is along the lines of what I was initially thinking but I'd love to hear your deconstruction of the sentence「俺は叔父さんに恋愛を半ば強いられている」.

Thanks for the replies so far Arupan

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Arupan Wrote:Try reading it like this and you'll get your answer → 彼女の人生における『束縛』は、俺が叔父さんに恋愛を半ば強いられているような、半端なものじゃないのだ。

I'm actually the one who asked this question. (Thanks quanticism! And you too, Arupan!) My question though, is how exactly you figured the second clause of the first sentence, modifies the second? I think I understand the causative bit, from your explanation.

Actually... I looked at it again. Tell me if I'm wrong here, but if that's the case, then that clause, "半端なものじゃないのだ。" is essentially being applied to both the first clause of the first sentence, and the second sentence? The way that the sentence is, it's like, "The "shackles" in her life, like me getting half forced into love by my uncle, are no laughing matter." That being the case, both clauses are what he calls no laughing matter... right? And if that's the case, that's how you figured that out?

seventhfonist425 Wrote:

Arupan Wrote:彼女の人生における『束縛』は、半端なものじゃないのだ。

I'm actually the one who asked this question. (Thanks quanticism! And you too, Arupan!) My question though, is how exactly you figured the second clause of the first sentence, modifies the second? I think I understand the causative bit, from your explanation.

That kind of inverted sentence structure is fairly common in Japanese. With a period coming after the は particle, I can't readily think of any other interpretation.

(Grammatically speaking this is not causative, it's just passive. 強いる does mean "forced", though, so semantically it seems causative.)

PS: You are better than this unnamed "more experienced" person you mentioned in the first post.

yudantaiteki Wrote:

seventhfonist425 Wrote:

Arupan Wrote:彼女の人生における『束縛』は、半端なものじゃないのだ。

I'm actually the one who asked this question. (Thanks quanticism! And you too, Arupan!) My question though, is how exactly you figured the second clause of the first sentence, modifies the second? I think I understand the causative bit, from your explanation.

That kind of inverted sentence structure is fairly common in Japanese. With a period coming after the は particle, I can't readily think of any other interpretation.

(Grammatically speaking this is not causative, it's just passive. 強いる does mean "forced", though, so semantically it seems causative.)

PS: You are better than this unnamed "more experienced" person you mentioned in the first post.

Ah, yeah, I updated the post with some more food for thought. Also, about the text I bolded, I only got that from quanticism's input, which he said:
"The verb isn't in the causative form but since 強いる means "force, compel, coerce", it may make up for it...?? (< Making stuff up lol)."

For which I was waiting for a bit of confirmation for (thanks on that.) And well, my mind sorta burst at this line, lol. Honestly, quanticism offered the closest input on that, so credit goes to him, and you guys who helped out. My experience with this form used is fairly lacking.

A lot of how you figure this kind of sentence out comes down to context, which is something you get better and better at the more experienced you get in Japanese. When you read:
俺が叔父さんに恋愛を半ば強いられているような、半端なものじゃないのだ。
If you have a good understanding of the flow of the writing and the context, you'll realize that something is missing (what is this もの they're talking about?) and the 彼女の人生における『束縛』は fills in the missing piece.

EDIT:
Possibly you knew this, but just in case, 俺が叔父さんに恋愛を半ば強いられているような、半端な is two separate modifiers for もの -- the first is the clause 俺が叔父さんに恋愛を半ば強いられているような, the second is just the na-adjective 半端な.

yudantaiteki Wrote:A lot of how you figure this kind of sentence out comes down to context, which is something you get better and better at the more experienced you get in Japanese. When you read:
俺が叔父さんに恋愛を半ば強いられているような、半端なものじゃないのだ。
If you have a good understanding of the flow of the writing and the context, you'll realize that something is missing (what is this もの they're talking about?) and the 彼女の人生における『束縛』は fills in the missing piece.

EDIT:
Possibly you knew this, but just in case, 俺が叔父さんに恋愛を半ば強いられているような、半端な is two separate modifiers for もの -- the first is the clause 俺が叔父さんに恋愛を半ば強いられているような, the second is just the na-adjective 半端な.

Wait, what? もの is for the first? Or is it the second? Though I think I understood the sentence, I'd appreciate it if you could clarify what you meant by "半端な is two separate modifiers for もの." Something like, 半端な is one of the two modifiers for もの? And if that's the case, doesn't your post above the edit say that the info for もの is filled in by the "彼女の人生における『束縛』は?" Which is the second sentence and not the first...? Also, this confused me a bit. Any reason why it's もの and not こと?

Quote:Any reason why it's もの and not こと?

束縛 is not an event.

seventhfonist425 Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:A lot of how you figure this kind of sentence out comes down to context, which is something you get better and better at the more experienced you get in Japanese. When you read:
俺が叔父さんに恋愛を半ば強いられているような、半端なものじゃないのだ。
If you have a good understanding of the flow of the writing and the context, you'll realize that something is missing (what is this もの they're talking about?) and the 彼女の人生における『束縛』は fills in the missing piece.

EDIT:
Possibly you knew this, but just in case, 俺が叔父さんに恋愛を半ば強いられているような、半端な is two separate modifiers for もの -- the first is the clause 俺が叔父さんに恋愛を半ば強いられているような, the second is just the na-adjective 半端な.

Wait, what? もの is for the first? Or is it the second? Though I think I understood the sentence, I'd appreciate it if you could clarify what you meant by "半端な is two separate modifiers for もの." Something like, 半端な is one of the two modifiers for もの? And if that's the case, doesn't your post above the edit say that the info for もの is filled in by the "彼女の人生における『束縛』は?" Which is the second sentence and not the first...? Also, this confused me a bit. Any reason why it's もの and not こと?

I apparently confused you more by my explanation -- I listed the two modifiers there, separated by a comma. Maybe just go back to Arupan's posts and ignore what I said.

(Re: the もの　vs. こと, even though the 束縛 here is not a physical thing, it's OK to use もの to treat it as if these were actual physical restraints.)

seventhfonist425 Wrote:Wait, what? もの is for the first? Or is it the second? Though I think I understood the sentence, I'd appreciate it if you could clarify what you meant by "半端な is two separate modifiers for もの." Something like, 半端な is one of the two modifiers for もの? And if that's the case, doesn't your post above the edit say that the info for もの is filled in by the "彼女の人生における『束縛』は?" Which is the second sentence and not the first...? Also, this confused me a bit. Any reason why it's もの and not こと?

It's for.. both? D:
That's why it would be good to think of these two as one sentence with "彼女の人生における『束縛』" as the subject - like Arupan said in the first reply.
(彼女の人生における『束縛』は、俺が叔父さんに恋愛を半ば強いられているような、半端なものじゃないのだ。)

I'd probably translate it something like this (stylized for emphasis♪)↓
HER "chains" aren't some silly thing like my uncle half-forcing me to get a girlfriend.

"Silly" ("half-assed," whatever) and "like my uncle half-forcing me to get a girlfriend" are sandwiching thing and clearly both modifying it. However, HER thing ("chains") is not like that (not silly like being forced to get a girlfriend by your uncle).

Another way of thinking of it would be that the first sentence raises the question of "it's not that kind (~ような + 半端な) of もの. Ok. But What is "it"?"
The subject of the second sentence ((if you can call it a sentence) 彼女の人生における『束縛』) is filling in that missing information.

1 "It" isn't that kind of silly thing.
2 What isn't that kind of silly thing?
3 Her "chains" aren't.

I initially thought of it like that too. (i.e. "getting forced to get a girlfriend" was a silly thing)

But Arupan's post seems to suggest that "getting half forced to get a girlfriend" is not a silly thing. yudantaiteki also agreed with Arupan's post so I'm not sure what to think now. Any further clarification would be greatly appreciated m(_ _)m

yudantaiteki said that 半端な AND ～ような were both modifying もの so that would make being forced to get a girlfriend a silly thing!

seventhfonist425 Wrote:"The "shackles" in her life, like me getting half forced into love by my uncle, are no laughing matter."

I figured that what I said here was fine... uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.........

quanticism Wrote:I initially thought of it like that too. (i.e. "getting forced to get a girlfriend" was a silly thing)

But Arupan's post seems to suggest that "getting half forced to get a girlfriend" is not a silly thing. yudantaiteki also agreed with Arupan's post so I'm not sure what to think now. Any further clarification would be greatly appreciated m(_ _)m

I interpret it the same way you did. As a nested double noun-modifier. 俺が叔父さんに恋愛を半ば強いられているような modifies 半端なもの.

This seems to make more sense semantically too. (Her lifelong obligation to uphold the good family name is not a random inconvenience like his being pressured to choose between a girl and an allowance?)

ydtt was clear that it's a double modifier (without specifying whether they're independent or nested). It's possible that he may have just misread arupan's post wrt negative scope.

If I understand Arupan's interpretation correctly, it involves 2 separate clauses describing the topic. I think this would require something like a conjunctive で　rather than な. ie. Her constraints are [like mine] AND are [not trivial]. The negative copula comes after もの, so an interpretation that "her constraints ARE like mine" would assume the first clause is not modifying もの. I'm not sure that interpretation is available.

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That is a good point about commas but, in this case, there is nothing to make us think, grammatically or otherwise, that the protagonist's worries are not silly. Unlike the example with the policeman and the robber, which can clearly be taken either way depending on comma placement.

drdunlap Wrote:yudantaiteki said that 半端な AND ～ような were both modifying もの so that would make being forced to get a girlfriend a silly thing!

Oh? This matter is not silly.
This matter is not like bike riding.
Therefore bike riding is silly. =)

政治家のような　賢い男
a guy who is smart and is like a politician
a guy who is smart like a politician
a guy who is as smart as a politician
politicians are smart

But the sentence here would read, "This matter is not silly like bike riding."

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半端なもの
not
半端ない・半端じゃない

What's more,
俺が叔父さんに恋愛を半ば強いられているような半端なもの

I can see where you're coming from but I'd feel more inclined to go with your interpretation if it were ～のように or ～と同じように.