Hey folks. I'm currently working on RtK and Pimsleur, probably not the ideal combination for most people but I'm enjoying it and they don't interfere with each other so it works. I've come to the conclusion that I can work my way through the kanji fairly slowly and focus more on the spoken word. The problem is that the more Japanese I learn, the faster I want to progress. The Pimsleur stuff isn't really accommodating in this regard due to the way the course is structured. Also quite frankly it does get a bit dry after a while and I can't see myself ever doing more than one lesson per day. So in an attempt to add some variety I have been going over some JapanesePod101.com lessons and I really do like them a lot. That said, I have a few reservations which I'll go over below, and it would be great if someone more knowledgeable than I could offer up some advice.

First of all, I like the fact that the lessons are easy on the ears, it's actually quite nice to listen to them. The dialogue is performed by native Japanese speakers, but it's also my understanding that some of them do voice work professionally. Does this have any effect on how legit the conversations sound? Exactly how real is the dialogue? Besides the fact that they're obviously speaking slowly for the sake of beginners, am I listening to Japanese being spoken in a fairly authentic manner?

Secondly, I'm wondering how best to use the dialogue in conjunction with SRS? Should I be rolling recognition, production, or both? Also, would you chop the conversations up and feed Anki the individual lines, or just have leave the whole dialogue intact and test listening comprehension. Seriously, I'm not a pro when it comes to SRS or any learning methods yet, so if anyone could help out with this one it would be just fantastic. How would you set your cards up?

Finally, I don't have a huge amount of vocabulary under my belt, but I do expect my lexicon to start growing a little more rapidly soon. So, if Pimsleur or a podcast lesson or anything else teaches me a new word, should I be reviewing that in isolation on top of the sentence it was used in at first? Is there any point reviewing vocab cards if I already have cards using the vocab in context? Surely at least we can say the latter is more useful to someone aiming to speak the language? Is there any value at all in the former?

Thanks for reading. And, if anyone answers my questions, thanks for that too.

I started out doing pimsleur, but a few things I did not like about it. The main reason being that it was audio only. I just think I learn vocabulary so much better when I have a visual representation in front of me. The other thing I didn't like was that there was no way to study just the material I was having trouble with. So having to re-listen to the same lessons over again to catch a few more vocabulary words seemed tedious. If I would have known that there were anki decks for the vocabulary, I probably would have finished pimsleur. But that brings up another problem with pimsleur - the anki deck I'm looking at has 741 notes and that's hardly any vocab considering you'll need five to ten times that before you'll be able to even think about following along with native materials. So you'll need to find another method once you finish pimsleur anyway.

It seems several people on this forum like jpod101 and use it extensively. I've listened a bit, but the beginner material has too much clowning around in english for my tastes. I've listened to some of the intermediate material and they seem to graduate completely to japanese at some point so maybe it gets better. They also seem to have transcripts and other varied materials that would make for a richer set of inputs. Although you have to pay for these. I believe they also have a lot more advanced material then pimsleur. So, although I haven't used jpod101 very much, I think it would be much better then pimsluer by a wide margin.

Regarding your questions. I believe any japanese lesson is going to feel stiff and unreal. But you will learn vocabulary, grammar and listening comprehension. I wouldn't worry about it. You have a lot to learn before you'll have to worry about sounding authentic.

I would probably SRS single vocab recognition(front: japanese word | back: english word) to build up your vocabulary. But I guess this is more of a whatever works for you thing. It's not going to hurt if you srs forward and/or reverse or sentences or whatever. Selectively SRSing sentences that have difficult grammar might be be beneficial a good exercise though. I wouldn't put the whole dialog on one card or anything. The key to srs is test single facts that have a simple answer - You either get it right or wrong. So be clear about what you are testing and what constitutes a right answer.

Finally, if you haven't come across this link, you might like to take a look. It's a comprehensive curriculum that a lot of people on this site are following.

yogert909 Wrote:I've listened a bit, but the beginner material has too much clowning around in english for my tastes.

You can download dialogues only - no English - plus transcripts and grammar explanations in English in pdf format. No need to pay for anything (it's very cheap, by the way), you can ask the biggest Internat library - rutracker - they're very friendly there.

http://www.japanesepod101.com/, http://www.hiraganatimes.com/ and http://www.coscom.co.jp/j-index.html are the best resources for 'traditional' beginner learnes.

buonaparte Wrote:

yogert909 Wrote:I've listened a bit, but the beginner material has too much clowning around in english for my tastes.

You can download dialogues only - no English - plus transcripts and grammar explanations in English in pdf format. No need to pay for anything (it's very cheap, by the way), you can ask the biggest Internat library - rutracker - they're very friendly there.

http://www.japanesepod101.com/, http://www.hiraganatimes.com/ and http://www.coscom.co.jp/j-index.html are the best resources for 'traditional' beginner learnes.

I was just logged in on their website and the transcripts and other materials said they were for premium members only. I'm assuming that means paid?

[Zgarbas]

Yeah, the dialogues are where it's at. I started liking the clowning around and the extra talk around the intermediate/advanced stage.
When you first sign up for jpod101 you get a week's worth of premium membership.

Zgarbas Wrote:Yeah, the dialogues are where it's at. I started liking the clowning around and the extra talk around the intermediate/advanced stage.
When you first sign up for jpod101 you get a week's worth of premium membership.

Yeah I'd probably like the clowning if it was in Japanese. I listened to some of the intermediate stuff a while ago and it sounded good, but it was a bit above my level. I'll probably give it another try once I learn more vocabulary. Having all of the written dialog and notes is a definite plus that I won't mind paying for.

[Zgarbas]

Don't get me wrong, the clowning will still be in English, but it will be more *relevant*. In the beginner's podcast it's all just chit-chat, but as the level gets higher there is actually information to be learned from it. The podcasts aren't meant to be an intensive and immersive experience so much as a light resource when you're driving/walking.

yogert909 Wrote:I was just logged in on their website and the transcripts and other materials said they were for premium members only. I'm assuming that means paid?

If you follow their podcasts, which can be freely downloaded during some period after their release, I think that a transcript is included (kanji, kana, romaji, English translation). At least it was at the time I collected them in my iTune.

Good replies. Thanks.

yogert909 Wrote:But that brings up another problem with pimsleur - the anki deck I'm looking at has 741 notes and that's hardly any vocab considering you'll need five to ten times that before you'll be able to even think about following along with native materials. So you'll need to find another method once you finish pimsleur anyway.

Agreed, it didn't take me long to figure out the limitations of the course. Though I do think the method itself is good, it appears to be working well enough for me anyway. The structure is really rigid which is actually helping me to keep at it every day. What I expect to get out of it at the end is acceptable pronunciation, and a decent knowledge of stuff like survival phrases.

yogert909 Wrote:I would probably SRS single vocab recognition(front: japanese word | back: english word) to build up your vocabulary. But I guess this is more of a whatever works for you thing. It's not going to hurt if you srs forward and/or reverse or sentences or whatever. Selectively SRSing sentences that have difficult grammar might be be beneficial a good exercise though. I wouldn't put the whole dialog on one card or anything. The key to srs is test single facts that have a simple answer - You either get it right or wrong. So be clear about what you are testing and what constitutes a right answer.

Wow, great article. That should be required reading for students of more or less anything. But yeah, I had been thinking of setting up a deck exactly like that, my concern was that single vocab recognition might be a waste of time seeing as I want to use words in sentences, not in isolation. I suppose different things work for different people though, so I'll definitely give it a shot.

yogert909 Wrote:Finally, if you haven't come across this link, you might like to take a look. It's a comprehensive curriculum that a lot of people on this site are following.

I think it was you who pointed me towards that in my other thread. It seems really useful. I'm slightly intimidated by Tae Kim's guide, but I think that might be just because it uses unfamiliar kanji even when covering the basics.

buonaparte Wrote:http://www.japanesepod101.com/, http://www.hiraganatimes.com/ and http://www.coscom.co.jp/j-index.html are the best resources for 'traditional' beginner learnes.

Is CosCom's free stuff any good? Actually, is their paid stuff any good?

JKS87 Wrote:I'm slightly intimidated by Tae Kim's guide, but I think that might be just because it uses unfamiliar kanji even when covering the basics.

Yeah that's kind of the downside to Tae Kim - he insists on knowing all the kanji first. His website is pretty good about supplying kana and english translations though and his writing style is clear and concise. So it kind of makes up for it. There's a Tae Kim iOS app which mirrors the material on the site which is nice.

I just finished tae kim basic and essential last month and I spent most of my time with the anki deck (kana on the front, english on the back). I would read the card and if I had questions about the grammar, I would check the website for the explanation. This worked pretty well. Although kanji with furigana would have been more readable for where I am in my studies now.

JKS87 Wrote:But yeah, I had been thinking of setting up a deck exactly like that, my concern was that single vocab recognition might be a waste of time seeing as I want to use words in sentences, not in isolation.

I made that suggestion specifically because it sounded like you would be following Jpod101. So learning the vocab and then following along with the podcasts would be great practice. Reading the dialogs would be great practice but I don't see much added utility in making sentence cards from the dialogs. Maybe if you could easily create cloze deleted sentences that would be useful.

yogert909 Wrote:Yeah that's kind of the downside to Tae Kim - he insists on knowing all the kanji first.

No, he doesn't - if anything, he insists on not specifically "learning" the kanji at all. http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2014...arn-kanji/

Vempele Wrote:

yogert909 Wrote:Yeah that's kind of the downside to Tae Kim - he insists on knowing all the kanji first.

No, he doesn't - if anything, he insists on not specifically "learning" the kanji. http://www.guidetojapanese.org/blog/2014...arn-kanji/

That's a red herring. I've read that blog post and his argument is subtle and he is definitely not saying not to learn kanji. You can tell by the first heading "Learn the meaning – Useful". What I think means by that post is that just because you've finished RTK doesn't mean you can say "I know kanji"

I hope we can agree that Tae Kim is assuming people have some facility for reading kanji prior to starting his grammar guide. After all, he does cover learning kanji in the grammar guide before any grammar is discussed.

He assumes you're "taking Japanese classes and want to get a better understanding of how things work", according to the front page. For complete beginners, he recommends the Complete Guide.

I'd also say he tacitly assumes (for both guides) you won't have any trouble with kanji, like he didn't.

I made a free account on jp101 some months back, and when I was at the last step there was some special offer for a month's worth of premium membership for $1 which also came with some pack of beginner's material to get started (which just looks like mostly stuff from the main website and that Innovative Languages (?) store) and a code to get something for free from the store, which I don't think I ever used because I couldn't decide on what to take. I don't know if they still have that going on, but they were constantly sending me emails telling me about some special limited time offer or another so I doubt it was a once in a lifetime chance.

albion Wrote:I made a free account on jp101 some months back, and when I was at the last step there was some special offer for a month's worth of premium membership for $1 which also came with some pack of beginner's material to get started (which just looks like mostly stuff from the main website and that Innovative Languages (?) store) and a code to get something for free from the store, which I don't think I ever used because I couldn't decide on what to take. I don't know if they still have that going on, but they were constantly sending me emails telling me about some special limited time offer or another so I doubt it was a once in a lifetime chance.

Despite the quality of the resource, Jpod101 is notorious for the number of emails and 'special offers' they send. Their marketing is very aggressive and slightly misleading (their quotes on membership prices are based on a quarter-subscription, leading you on with '$x per month'; standard stuff, but there's just too much of it at once).

My advice on their stuff:
1.) Use your week trial to get all the transcripts (and whatever else you want, but I only really found a use for the transcripts) from whatever lesson onwards.
2.) Work on the lessons that are free; if you want the ones that are still premium (they'll become free eventually, but I think it's not until the next set comes out), then grab them during your trial or buy a single month and download them then (be sure to cancel it, since it's automatically renewed).

As for the product itself, I've found the podcasts fairly entertaining and useful for training my terrible listening abilities (they speak pretty slowly and the skit is done at 'regular' speed (same speed as the hosts, for the most part) and slow speed (best I can tell they didn't slow it, it's a separate recording)). You'll probably be glad when Peter is gone (though I will admit he got a few laughs from me), though I don't think Jessy(?) is much better (she's a bit stiff when she talks, more so than any of the others, which I find slightly unpleasant). I haven't gotten to the point where it's all Japanese yet, though, so I can't say anything about those lessons.

You can get them to dial down the marketing if you want. Or you can make it work for you-- I still get the "Japanese word of the day" email, just in case they send me something I don't already know. Doesn't happen often, but it only takes a second to glance at it and delete it.

If you want the best deals on subscriptions, then wait until US Thanksgiving/Black Friday. They usually have some crazy sale around there, or around New Year's.

I also second getting the dialog only tracks. Dump them all into a playlist, then put it on shuffle. It's good listening training that way, because you have no idea what's coming next. See how much you understand NOW.

As a resource for reinforcing stuff you're already learning, I think it's pretty helpful. The first survival phrases series they did saved my butt when I first went over there. The CSP and second one, not so much.

The Advanced Beginner keigo series was also pretty good for understanding formal announcements you'll hear over there a lot. The upper intermediate series had some good stuff on 慣用語. The advanced audio blog is good N2-N1 listening practice.

As you get better, you should definitely start mixing in real Japanese podcasts, but this is a good crutch until you can understand the native stuff.

Thanks for all the really good replies. I'm going to start going through all the newbie lessons, hopefully at a rate of at least three or four per day. I'll put the dialogue tracks on my iPod and listen to them while I'm out and about. I'll also make an Anki deck for listening comprehension and add the good stuff to it. Also, I just discovered the Tanos site so I think I'm going to start working on the N5 vocab list. I told myself I wouldn't do any of this until I had 2,200 kanji under my belt, but I really just want to get down to really learning Japanese. Right now I'm just wasting my time learning about learning techniques, what a joke.

And yeah, they JapanesePod101.com sure do seem to enjoy sending me emails every day.

Also, DuoLingo seems to support Japanese now. It's kind of wonky, but that's something, too. (And it's free.)

Well, by now I can say that RtK and Pimsleur are dragging too much for me. I decided to bite the bullet and start a few Anki decks, hopefully I can add to them every day.

I've been cutting up the dialogues from the podcasts and drilling audio recognition, I'm supplementing this with some basic expressions from a Kodansha phrase book. I also made a vocab deck based on the Core list, drilling from kanji to furigana and audio. I'm starting with ten new cards per day, but I'll be looking to double that eventually. Finally, I'm drilling reading comprehension with Tae Kim's example sentences. Originally I wanted to use cloze deletion for grammar production, but I'm still new so I want to keep it simple for now.

Hopefully I can start to make some real progress now.

Sounds like a good program. You will probably with have a fair amount overlap since you are pulling material from varied sources. I don't think it'll be a major problem though because anki will make sure it stays challenging.

I'm reviving this thread because I don't feel like starting a new one to ask one question.

Any advice for the initial stages of learning vocab? I've been using Anki for eight days now, 86 words from the Core list plus audio lessons. My listening comprehension is about as good as I can expect it to be at this early stage, I can pick out words from a spoken sentence and figure out some particles too. I also seem to perform really well with Pimsleur too, I've only failed to hit the 80% mark on one or two lessons and I've been studying with it daily for almost three weeks.

The problem seems to be that I suck at memorising written Japanese words. My brain turns to mush as soon as I see a word. I'm forgetting them in literally minutes. I even added two learning stages in Anki, but I just seem to be spending more time to get the same results.

It's strange, I got through the kana so easily, and in around half the time that Heisig estimates. I really thought speaking and listening was going to be my weakness. More or less the exact opposite of what I expected has happened. In some way I'm happy about this as my primary goal is to actually speak Japanese. If in a few years I can hold my own in a conversation to a degree, or watch a drama provided it's not too difficult, I will be so happy. But some form of literacy would be nice. I've considered a number of different options, and I've reached the conclusion that any change I make could have a serious detrimental effect on my ability to read. If I have no other choice, it's something I'll accept.

So, what are my options? First of all, I can put audio on the front of the cards, effectively drilling from kanji and reading to meaning. This basically transforms the deck into a listening comprehension test for single vocab words only, with the added bonus of seeing the kanji. But will it improve my reading skills? Probably not by much. Alternatively I could add the meaning to the front and test my ability to recall the reading. Truth be told, I can see myself having difficulty with this one too, just a feeling. Thoughts on this would be welcome. I suppose I could also leave the cards with just kanji on the front and keep struggling, maybe one day it will just click.

So, any advice? How does one go about actually learning the words before starting the Anki process? Is drilling from kanji to reading and meaning really the best way of doing things?

[Zgarbas]

You're 8 days in. Don't worry much about it, and don't overload yourself. Give it a few weeks before worrying about it. Japanese can be overwhelming on the brain at first since there are so many new things to take in, it's natural that your brain find it a bit hard to adapt. At one point things will start to click, but for now the sheer new-ness of it is in the way. Japanese is a language where it can be harder get from zero to beginner than from beginner to advanced.

Once you memorize a few hundred vocabulary words, you can switch to sentences. Having the context from the sentences makes it a lot easier to remember what the words mean. But you need to have enough vocabulary (and using an optimized core deck) so that each sentence has only one unknown word. If you don't have enough vocabulary, you won't have any context and you won't know which word means what in the sentence.

Since you say you do better with audio, putting the audio on the front of the card would probably help. Can't hurt to try it and see how it works out.

Thanks, good answers. Yeah, I'm probably worrying over nothing. I'll give it a while longer before I look at changing things up.