Stansfield123 Wrote:

john555 Wrote:itiban hutuu

???

This is Nihon-shiki romanization: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihon-shiki_romanization

"Nippon-shiki has been established by the International Organization for Standardization in the ISO 3602 strict form. The JSL system, which is intended for use instructing foreign students of Japanese, is also based on Nippon-shiki."

John555, which textbook are you using? Is it Jorden?

gaiaslastlaugh Wrote:

Stansfield123 Wrote:

john555 Wrote:itiban hutuu

???

This is Nihon-shiki romanization: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihon-shiki_romanization

"Nippon-shiki has been established by the International Organization for Standardization in the ISO 3602 strict form. The JSL system, which is intended for use instructing foreign students of Japanese, is also based on Nippon-shiki."

John555, which textbook are you using? Is it Jorden?

He's definitely not using JSL; I hope he's not using Beginning Japanese. That textbook is from the 60's and seriously outdated in most aspects.

sholum Wrote:It's one of the most aggravating versions of romaji, that's what; never understood why textbooks love it (and other such abominations) so much.

If you can't see how there's certain advantage and disadvantages of this system, just like all the others... Well, I don't know what to say.

gaiaslastlaugh Wrote:

Stansfield123 Wrote:

john555 Wrote:itiban hutuu

???

This is Nihon-shiki romanization: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihon-shiki_romanization

"Nippon-shiki has been established by the International Organization for Standardization in the ISO 3602 strict form. The JSL system, which is intended for use instructing foreign students of Japanese, is also based on Nippon-shiki."

John555, which textbook are you using? Is it Jorden?

Actually, the system my textbook uses is kunrei-siki which I understand is similar to Nippon-shiki.

I like kunrei-siki because it's cleaner looking e.g, when you conjugate verbs:

matu
matimasu
matanai

vs.

matsu
machimasu
matanai

The textbook I'm using is Teach Yourself Japanese by Dunn and Yanada.

For those who don't like romaji, please note that I DID try to put my example into kanji and kana but as I was at a terminal at the public library this was not possible. (I tried everything, even looking for a website that would convert romaji to kanji and kana but all could find were sites that converted into 100% kana so I gave up).

I read "kuru" and can't not think "cooroo"... as opposed to the proper U and R pronunciation

I suppose we don't need to beat this dead romaji horse any more but wow, man. wow.

it's like you're trying to read pinyin without characters, just chinese written with English letters but completely different from the English pronunciation system. I suppose you can do it... seems pretty hard tho and then you'll have to learn it all over again when you get good enough to drop the crutch.

everything in Japanese hangs on the kanji... that's how people don't get confused by all the similar sounds... because they are all tied to these funny squiggles.
you're setting yourself up for a pretty massive difficulty jump when you turn the corner to intermediate and have to learn core-style vocab.

dtcamero Wrote:I read "kuru" and can't not think "cooroo"... as opposed to the proper U and R pronunciation

That's your problem, not a problem with romaji.

Quote:everything in Japanese hangs on the kanji... that's how people don't get confused by all the similar sounds... because they are all tied to these funny squiggles.

I feel sorry for children, who can't speak their own language because they haven't learned the squiggles yet.

yudantaiteki Wrote:I feel sorry for children, who can't speak their own language because they haven't learned the squiggles yet.

I feel sorry for people who aim to speak like a 5yo...Plus, 5 yo. Japanese kids don't use Romaji either.

dtcamero Wrote:I suppose we don't need to beat this dead romaji horse any more but wow, man. wow.[...]

漢字で書くのかローマ字で書くのかどちらかいいで、口論をする人はどんな目的があるの？

dtcamero Wrote:I read "kuru" and can't not think "cooroo"... as opposed to the proper U and R pronunciation

Really, Japanese has only five vowels and no equivalent for the English 'r', and yet you can't figure out which Japanese sounds 'kuru' represents?

Highly specific brain damage from having to learn to spell English, preventing him from ever learning another language using the Latin alphabet?

Regarding Romaji.

I don't want to stoke up a potential flame war (this site is so much better than it was, but I am always surprised how personal stuff gets), however I don't really see what is that wrong with using Romaji. Decades ago my spoken Japanese was much better than the Japanese graduates I worked with simply because I devoured a romaji dicitonary of 3,000 words and later one with 5,000 words, and still later a business dictionary. I am sure I did not know all the words but certainly did know most of them. I concentrated on grammar and verbal skills. It worked well. I watched people learning kana and kanji and it was painfully slow. Certainly, those that progressed to advanced Japanese ended up way ahead of me (but there were very few). True, without kana and kanji I was very limited. What I did notice is that once I started to read and write kana and kanji my progress was swift. It is my deep regret that I did not carry on.

I am leanring Kana and Kanji again now, but honestly, if I am writing out excercises it is just quicker to write in Romaji. I can still read the Kana but I write Romaji faster. I also notice my two Skype partners write vocab in Romaji. Does not cause problems. For me speed and quantity of work done is the key.

Regarding the similar sounds of Kanji and the need for different 'squiggles'; I wrote out reports many times in Romaji (and later in Kana) and I can honestly say there was no confusion. Context usually sorted similar meanings out. I am not convinced that Kanji is necessary. However, it is never going to disappear. It is part of the culture.

Old textbooks. As I am an old git I prefer them. There is more emphasis on grammar which I like but the Basic, Intermediate and Advanced Dictionaries are fantastic. Does not matter what one uses really - just keep studying.

Lastly, someone mentioned Jorden's Japanese the Spoken Language. Years ago I bought this (with tapes) in a Charity shop just in case I ever studied Japanese again. Did not not really like the version of Romaji but understood it OK. These are the best books I have ever seen on spoken language. Saw the much earlier 1960s text book - probably ok but not the same standard as JSL. Printed version had typewriter typeface which was hard on the eyes.

I have always felt if there were Romaji textbooks and readers to intermediate level and then one had to learn Kana and Kanji, the dropout rate of Japanese learners would be considerably reduced.

Many of you are talented and have worked hard to achieve your levels. People here are motivated. I wonder if you have forgotten how hard it was at first? I used to have a Japanese friend who taught using Japanese for Busy People. The dropout rate after book one leaving romaji behind was heartbreaking for her. She used to to think books 2 and 3 should have carried on in Romaji.

I am not saying I am right. Indeed, Romaji does have to be left behind if one is serious about learning to any reasonable high level but I have found it serves a useful purpose. After all there is Kanji, Hiragana and Katakana - might as well use Romaji as well, especially if you are already an native English speaker.

No method can fit all. As long as you keep learning the language, it's fine, even if it's with a textbook that uses a flag semaphore transcription of Japanese (セマフォア字 ? Shit, that would be interesting).

edit : wouldn't you know it, there IS a japanese semaphore system. Hardly surprising given it's an island nation really. Am I off topic ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_semaphore

john555 Wrote:I like kunrei-siki because it's cleaner looking e.g, when you conjugate verbs:

matu
matimasu
matanai

vs.

matsu
machimasu
matanai

But what's the point if it's written wrong? I mean I can imagine the English with their messed up way of randomly spelling words could get used to having a "t" represent three different sounds, but it looks hideous compared to the rest of the latin-influenced scripts.

Also I don't understand how one can be "learning" kana. I thought the continuous tense in English wasn't supposed to be used like that.

Fintan Wrote:Regarding Romaji.

I don't want to stoke up a potential flame war (this site is so much better than it was, but I am always surprised how personal stuff gets), however I don't really see what is that wrong with using Romaji. Decades ago my spoken Japanese was much better than the Japanese graduates I worked with simply because I devoured a romaji dicitonary of 3,000 words and later one with 5,000 words, and still later a business dictionary. I am sure I did not know all the words but certainly did know most of them. I concentrated on grammar and verbal skills. It worked well. I watched people learning kana and kanji and it was painfully slow. Certainly, those that progressed to advanced Japanese ended up way ahead of me (but there were very few). True, without kana and kanji I was very limited. What I did notice is that once I started to read and write kana and kanji my progress was swift. It is my deep regret that I did not carry on.

I am leanring Kana and Kanji again now, but honestly, if I am writing out excercises it is just quicker to write in Romaji. I can still read the Kana but I write Romaji faster. I also notice my two Skype partners write vocab in Romaji. Does not cause problems. For me speed and quantity of work done is the key.

Regarding the similar sounds of Kanji and the need for different 'squiggles'; I wrote out reports many times in Romaji (and later in Kana) and I can honestly say there was no confusion. Context usually sorted similar meanings out. I am not convinced that Kanji is necessary. However, it is never going to disappear. It is part of the culture.

Old textbooks. As I am an old git I prefer them. There is more emphasis on grammar which I like but the Basic, Intermediate and Advanced Dictionaries are fantastic. Does not matter what one uses really - just keep studying.

Lastly, someone mentioned Jorden's Japanese the Spoken Language. Years ago I bought this (with tapes) in a Charity shop just in case I ever studied Japanese again. Did not not really like the version of Romaji but understood it OK. These are the best books I have ever seen on spoken language. Saw the much earlier 1960s text book - probably ok but not the same standard as JSL. Printed version had typewriter typeface which was hard on the eyes.

I have always felt if there were Romaji textbooks and readers to intermediate level and then one had to learn Kana and Kanji, the dropout rate of Japanese learners would be considerably reduced.

Many of you are talented and have worked hard to achieve your levels. People here are motivated. I wonder if you have forgotten how hard it was at first? I used to have a Japanese friend who taught using Japanese for Busy People. The dropout rate after book one leaving romaji behind was heartbreaking for her. She used to to think books 2 and 3 should have carried on in Romaji.

I am not saying I am right. Indeed, Romaji does have to be left behind if one is serious about learning to any reasonable high level but I have found it serves a useful purpose. After all there is Kanji, Hiragana and Katakana - might as well use Romaji as well, especially if you are already an native English speaker.

アイノーライット。イツジャストライクウェンジャパニスビギナズライットライクディス。ザサウンドズオブイングリシュアンドジャパニズアエクサクトリーザセイムソーイツノプロブレムウエンラーナーズライットインカタカナインステードオブユジングザアルファベット。アンドウイアルノーザットウェンユーブレークユーアレッグユーワントツユーズクラチスフォーエバー。ツービフランクアンドツブトダウンディスシャーレードフォーアーセコンドボースローマジフォナンジャパニズアンドカタカナフォーザジャパニズアーミーリークラチズツヘルプビギナーズ。ラーニングカンジイェッスイズアペインインザアッスアットザビギニングイエッスバットカナイズノットザットハードツラーン。

Helltrixz Wrote:Also I don't understand how one can be "learning" kana. I thought the continuous tense in English wasn't supposed to be used like that.

It can, it just means whoever is still in the process, like maybe they only know like 15 or them.

Helltrixz Wrote:Also I don't understand how one can be "learning" kana. I thought the continuous tense in English wasn't supposed to be used like that.

"And that concludes today's lesson on あ. Tomorrow we'll be learning い."

You're learning kana from the moment you start learning them until you know them all or stop trying.

Helltrixz Wrote:

john555 Wrote:I like kunrei-siki because it's cleaner looking e.g, when you conjugate verbs:
matu
matimasu
matanai
vs.
matsu
machimasu
matanai

But what's the point if it's written wrong? I mean I can imagine the English with their messed up way of randomly spelling words could get used to having a "t" represent three different sounds, but it looks hideous compared to the rest of the latin-influenced scripts.

It's written fine. Japanese people think of their own syllabary in groups of five vowels. So it's あいうえお、かきくけこ、さしすせそ、たちつてと, etc. When you write 'tu' 'ti' and 'ta' you just means the 't' group with the corresponding vowel. Anyway, Japanese people overwhelmingly romanize this way naturally, so the more you get used to looking at Japanese people romanizing, the more you'll get used to this method. I've taught junior high a bit, and you need to explain to the kids the way they should romanize in English to make it easier to understand for English speakers.

RandomQuotes Wrote:アイノーライット。イツジャストライクウェンジャパニスビギナズライットライクディス。ザサウンドズオブイングリシュアンドジャパニズアエクサクトリーザセイムソーイツノプロブレムウエンラーナーズライットインカタカナインステードオブユジングザアルファベット。アンドウイアルノーザットウェンユーブレークユーアレッグユーワントツユーズクラチスフォーエバー。ツービフランクアンドツブトダウンディスシャーレードフォーアーセコンドボースローマジフォナンジャパニズアンドカタカナフォーザジャパニズアーミーリークラチズツヘルプビギナーズ。ラーニングカンジイェッスイズアペインインザアッスアットザビギニングイエッスバットカナイズノットザットハードツラーン。

Using katakana to representation English and using romaji to represent Japanese is completely different. Romaji perfectly conveys the Japanese sound with 100% accuracy (i.e., it's exactly the same as writing entirely in kana. 'ka'=か=a sound spoken in Japanese). Katakana does not even come close. When it comes to sound, there's information loss in one direction, but not in the other.

Anyway, I always get the distinct impression that the people who complain most strongly about romaji are not very far along in learning Japanese. Why would an advanced learner give a *****?

In all honesty? I care mostly because it's a hassle to read.

As far as a one to one match. No. The consonant in ふ is f nor is it h. and る is neither an r nor an l. and ん changes it's pronunciation based on what comes after it. Most of the time sure, but not one to one.

As far as why argue one way or the other here? Because it's a forum for learning, and people tend to be here to either help people, get help, or both. If someone thinks romaji is detrimental, this seems like the appropriate place to argue for such. In the same vein, why would and advanced learner care about someone using rosetta stone, care about helping beginners differentiate between は and が, or care sharing the decks and or spreadsheets they've made? I mean sharing the N2 Kanzen Master spreadsheet didn't help one one bit, so why should I care?

Vempele Wrote:

Helltrixz Wrote:Also I don't understand how one can be "learning" kana. I thought the continuous tense in English wasn't supposed to be used like that.

"And that concludes today's lesson on あ. Tomorrow we'll be learning い."

You're learning kana from the moment you start learning them until you know them all or stop trying.

And with this revolutionary method you can master the kana in only 3 months!

Tzadeck Wrote:It's written fine. Japanese people think of their own syllabary in groups of five vowels. So it's あいうえお、かきくけこ、さしすせそ、たちつてと, etc. When you write 'tu' 'ti' and 'ta' you just means the 't' group with the corresponding vowel. Anyway, Japanese people overwhelmingly romanize this way naturally, so the more you get used to looking at Japanese people romanizing, the more you'll get used to this method. I've taught junior high a bit, and you need to explain to the kids the way they should romanize in English to make it easier to understand for English speakers.

I never paid much attention to either, I didn't know this. Does that mean that when Japanese learn western languages they also pronounce western words in that way? For instance, the clock is chicking? Or I love eating tsuna?

RandomQuotes Wrote:If someone thinks romaji is detrimental, this seems like the appropriate place to argue for such.

That's not what I mean, though I admit I wasn't clear. People put down romaji even outside of that context, as if romaji is somehow an inferior way to represent Japanese sounds compared to kana, when it is in fact exactly the same as kana.

Japanese pronunciation is so easy to do with a syllabary system that it literally works like a mathematical function in which either one symbol (as in kana) or two or three symbols (as in romaji) output a sound. I'm not invested in the argument about whether using romaji early on is detrimental to learning the sound system or not--I don't know or care. But once you know the sound system the two methods of writing are identical in terms of production.

RandomQuotes Wrote:As far as a one to one match. No. The consonant in ふ is f nor is it h. and る is neither an r nor an l. and ん changes it's pronunciation based on what comes after it. Most of the time sure, but not one to one.

See, here I think you're just not getting it. When I'm romanizing a Japanese word as 'hurosiki' or something, I'm saying that you make (sound a)(sound b)(sound c)(sound d). Just as I'm doing when I write ふろしき. English is not involved at all, and nobody is comparing the consonant in ふ with any consonants in English. Japanese people use romaji too, to represent Japanese sounds exactly as they are pronounced.

Helltrixz Wrote:I never paid much attention to either, I didn't know this. Does that mean that when Japanese learn western languages they also pronounce western words in that way? For instance, the clock is chicking? Or I love eating tsuna?

Yes. Neither the sound 'ti' in 'ticking' nor 'tu' in 'tuna' are in the Japanese sound system, so naturally Japanese people have trouble pronouncing them and often do them exactly as you say.

Helltrixz Wrote:I never paid much attention to either, I didn't know this. Does that mean that when Japanese learn western languages they also pronounce western words in that way? For instance, the clock is chicking? Or I love eating tsuna?

Yup. This happens alot, and many Japanese have trouble with closed syllables. And many also have troubles with the n sound because it gets equated to ん.

(Bumping thread for visibility - please post about roumaji here, and not in the "passive voice" thread. Funashi thanks you.)

Tzadeck Wrote:Japanese people use romaji too, to represent Japanese sounds exactly as they are pronounced.

In fact, many of them use romaji constantly, every day, when typing on their computers. True, they don't read the Japanese that way, but it's evident that they don't have any problem dealing with representing their thoughts via romaji input.

Most of the debate over romaji is useless because nobody argues for romaji as a long-term Japanese learning strategy. Some people think it can be useful to make limited use of romaji in the initial stages, whereas others argue for using kana/kanji immediately. But the time frame we're talking about is tiny compared to the amount of time it will take to learn Japanese. If someone is using romaji for 5 years that might be a concern, but when you're talking about a few months it really makes no difference.

I strongly dislike rômaji myself because I can't read Japanese in it. The same sentence in kanji + kana on the other hand is usually way more comprehensive, way faster. It seems my brain has just decided that language written in Latin alphabet is not Japanese

i agree with Helltrixz. i guess romaji is ok for native english speakers, because i really don't see how matu=matsu.