The other thread has been closed, but I'm still interested in one issue that has been brought up in response to my post:

Lival Wrote:Once you reach a certain level in a language, it's wise to ditch the grammar books to dive right into a big pile of native material until you develop a "feel" for the language. Actively learning convoluted rules and contrived examples can only bring you so far.

From my own experience I can say that exactly the opposite seems to be true. I have ditched them, but I still haven't acquired the "feel". I remember that there was a very substantial spike in my knowledge of the language when I actually started reading and listening to real english, outside of classroom textbooks, but that ended quickly. Now I can understand virtually everything I read in english, even very advanced texts, but it doesn't help my ability to use it myself. I have to rely on simple grammar, limited vocabulary and I still make grammatical mistakes.
My primary purpose to learn japanese is to watch anime (yeah I KNOW), but it is a bit discouraging for me that the same thing might happen again. Have anyone experienced a similar problem of not really improving themselves, despite having a lot of contact with native materials? Perhaps grammar books are still necessary, but you need the more advanced, more thorough ones?

Hmm, well when I truly became fluent in English was when I started using native materials, namely books. I just sort of unconsciously replicated patterns, got a 'feel' of the use of the language, started thinking to myself in English, and got the courage to talk to people...

Of course, I had a very solid base of grammar already, and knew enough vocab to start reading simple things.

Maybe it depends on the person?

And imo, japanese is going to be harder than english, so maybe you'd need the extra books?

If you hadn't told me that you learned English as a second language I probably wouldn't have noticed. At least from this one post alone. So I'd say do whatever you did in English one more time for Japanese.

I actually enjoy looking into grammar now that I'm effectively bilingual because I can read and digest the Japanese explanations. I ask the same questions that educated Japanese people ask when they suddenly find themselves confused about the "why." (Go go gadget chiebukuro!) I never liked spending too much time on grammar while I was in the Intermediate-Advanced stages. Now.. the vast majority of the grammar that I know and use is beyond my ability to explain- just like it is in English.

If you're really worried, read/listen to a lot of Japanese in the style you want to pick up and actively copy it. Maybe even write it out word for word to burn the patterns into your head. Whatever you did for English, it certainly seems to have worked! I know what you mean, though. It's a perfectionist thing. I'm in the same boat.

I don't know about Japanese being harder than English, though. In the end, all languages are just a collection of patterns. A lot of patterns. Grammar is our commendable (though insufficient) attempt at making sense of these patterns. And those explanations -will- help you make sense of the patterns, but -using- them correctly just takes time and practice.

In my experience, reviewing and studying grammar is always helpful. I've written about my own learning experience before, but basically I had lived in Japan for 2 years (not in an English bubble) and passed level 1 of the JLPT. I was playing text-heavy RPG video games in Japanese and also reading stuff, including short stories and news.

Then I had to teach Japanese, and I found out how much I didn't know, even about basics. It's amazing how much you can train your brain to ignore and still think you're understanding everything. Of course I was understanding enough to follow everything I was reading, but having to go back and study the basic grammar again showed me how much detail there was that I was missing. Doing that greatly improved my Japanese.

The purpose of studying grammar is not to learn rules that will automatically let you speak the language. It's to give you structure and explanation for understanding what you see in the native materials you are using as well. People get too enamored of the idea of completely discarding English or "grammar" and going full-bore into native materials. I think that this deprives you of a very useful tool for speeding your Japanese learning.

People will claim that you can pick this all up automatically. This may be true for some people, but I have a feeling that people who claim this are either unusually gifted at learning languages, talking about their experience learning a language similar to their native one, or overestimating their own ability. You may see a pattern over and over, but if you have no English translation or explanation, there's no guarantee you'll correctly figure out what it means. You can miss a lot of meaning and still "read" something.

Yeah, the truth is that I'm just disappointed that the learning of languages doesn't take care of itself and always demands your effort. Perhaps my expectations were too high. I guess I have no choice but to follow your advices and buy some extra thick grammar books: first english, and then (hopefully) japanese.
So let me update Lival's comment posted above:
"Once you reach a certain level in a language, it's wise to set aside (for a while) that big pile of native material, so you can spend some time with a grammar book"

EDIT: I have just looked at my initial post... and I saw this monster: "Have anyone". Ehhh. That's what I dislike about native english people - you never correct anyone! Just come to Poland and try to speak polish. Or write something in polish. Your every mistake, no matter how small and insignificant, is going to be pointed out.

.

I've made this suggestion before, but take it with a grain of salt because I haven't tried it yet. I have read that a lot of accomplished writers copy their favorite writers. For instance I was watching something on Hunter S Thompson this weekend and this ex-wife said that he would obsessively type out pages and pages of the Great Gatsby. And that's exactly what I'm suggesting - typing out pages of writing that you admire the style of to "internalize" the structure. I'd imagine reciting out loud monologues of someone who is particularly articulate would be another good exercise to get yourself in the habit of putting words together in a particular way. I know it is an exercise used extensively in public speaking workshops.

Everyone agrees that ditching textbooks or grammar books at a certain point is pretty necessary, but everyone seems to argue about when.

I know that even though I could read quickly at a fairly high level, I did hit a wall that only studying grammar really solved. By that point, though, studying grammar was pretty easy. It mostly worked similar to studying vocabulary, and I could think of places where I had heard the grammar I was studying before. It helped my production skills much more than it helped my reading skills.

It helped take my understanding of Japanese grammar from a vague sense of it to a more explicit understanding.

The advice to ditch the textbooks is worthwhile for a lot of beginners because they don't realize they really can get used to reading native material even if it's a slog at first. Beginners pick up a book, find that it takes so much time, then come to the conclusion they need to study from textbooks more. Then they come back, and it's still hard. So they use more textbooks. They don't realize that if they put up with that slog for a few days or weeks they can eventually power through it enough to be able to read native material more comfortably.

For people who are already over that hump, studying grammar can be very beneficial for sharpening understanding. Unlike in normal classes, reading native material early is encouraged here. There's a lot of moral support for people who are just breaking into real Japanese.

Outside this forum, though, I see a lot of beginners avoiding material in favor of textbooks because of the kind of comfortable hugbox aspect and feeling like they're learning something worthwhile even if they aren't. They see native material as some pipe dream they're years away from instead of something they could be doing comfortably next month if they really wanted to.

I think people should start experiencing native material they're interested in after finishing a beginner course like Tae Kim or Genki 1/2. At that point they should be comfortable enough with looking things up that they could get by with a dictionary and good grammar reference. If they want to study more grammar then that's great, but it shouldn't come at the expense of vocab study or real practice with native sources.

rfv14 Wrote:EDIT: I have just looked at my initial post... and I saw this monster: "Have anyone". Ehhh. That's what I dislike about native english people - you never correct anyone! Just come to Poland and try to speak polish. Or write something in polish. Your every mistake, no matter how small and insignificant, is going to be pointed out.

I probably wouldn't have noticed it in the first place, since most people suck at writing in English on the Internet (I'm sure I suck as well); one starts to ignore such things after a while, even if they grew up like I did and never got away with speaking improperly (Me: "Jeremy and me-", Grandmother: "Who?", Me: "... 'Jeremy and I'.", Grandmother: "That's better.").
Not to mention that everyone is too worried about offending others to critique their speech.

Reading a lot definitely helps with some things, but grammar resources and dictionaries are still important.

As for production... I really can't recommend anything, since my Japanese production is terrible (my active vocabulary is small and my structure is poor). However, I remember always talking to myself in my head as a kid (either making up stories or creating conversations with multiple entities), in order to internalize things I learned in school and from reading. While this did little for my social skills, it really helped me improve my English.
I would think doing this in Japanese would work just the same, so long as you got to a point where you could explain things to yourself in Japanese. It might work just as well using your native language, but I don't know if you'd get the same benefit as you would working out a description of something in the same language.

@Arupan: Yeah people are pretty strongly divided over either loving or hating Murakami. He's a weird fellow. I was told by my professors at Kobe that my essays sounded like him. Which makes sense, considering almost 100% of my Japanese study prior to going to Kobe University was reading his novels and soaking up the language. I haven't written an essay in years, though, and nowadays I have my own Japanese (although very Osakan as that is where my friends, activities and work have brought me).

This is one method of learning that works for some and doesn't for others. Although I imagine, with practice, most anyone could learn to do this kind of empathetic learning to some degree. I suppose It has it's pros and cons, though. I know at least one other person around here (Zgarbas?) has talked about being a very empathetic learner and naturally copying the input they receive.

That having been said, I think the argument for grammar is good for two reasons.
1) Neglecting grammar explanations from the very beginning is bound to slow down all but the most genius of language learners.
2) Going back to the basics and looking at explanations after you become proficient can also be incredibly helpful. Especially if (as I believe) those explanations are in the target language. After all, we study our own native language's grammar in school as well.

It's a healthy mix kind of thing. Although I strongly believe that the largest portion of the mix should be experience and copying- with a little explanation here and there (and a large chunk in the beginning). The when and where for the different portions is all dependent on the individual learner. No one-size-fits-all in language learning land.

rfv14 Wrote:EDIT: I have just looked at my initial post... and I saw this monster: "Have anyone". Ehhh. That's what I dislike about native english people - you never correct anyone! Just come to Poland and try to speak polish. Or write something in polish. Your every mistake, no matter how small and insignificant, is going to be pointed out.

Japanese people are the same way. D:
I'm not sure which extreme I like best. Haha.
Seems like I'd get tired if everyone around me was always correcting me.

What does your use of real English consist of?

For me, it was all sorts of things (including reading novels), but the main one, in terms of sheer volume, had to be the thousands of hours of my favorite radio show that I used to listen to regularly (and by regularly I mean every weekday for several hours).

I of course also watched hundreds of movies, the number of TV shows I've seen is into the thousand (used to watch the Cartoon Network back when it was funny), wasted countless hours of my life just watching random old comedy videos on youtube, the time of hours I've spent on forums not unlike this one also has to be up there, I read the news every day.

So that's the kind of volume you need. I'm doing the same thing for Japanese, and I expect my Japanese to be as good as my English by 2020 or so. But not a day sooner.

Reading is best for expanding ones vocabulary, but radio (especially entertainment and comedy radio, not some dry political talk show) is best for picking up on the modern expressions (including slang) and cultural references that really make someone speak on a native level. You can have perfect grammar and still not sound native. (I'm not suggesting you should be sounding like a hiphop star, btw., far from it - I always try to come across as educated and sophisticated without sounding stiff - but at the same time understand, and show that I understand, people who prefer to speak in different ways)

sholum Wrote:(Me: "Jeremy and me-", Grandmother: "Who?", Me: "... 'Jeremy and I'.", Grandmother: "That's better.").

Between you and me, that advice tends to cause far more harm than good.

("Between you and I" gets 52 times as many Google hits)

After reading your post Stansfield123 I'm no longer so sure, that I have really spent enough time on these things to expect tremendous results. I have read perhaps a dozen novels, watched a few seasons of some stupid american sitcoms and listened to only one podcast (The history of Rome - it's very good!). So beside studying grammar, I will try to find some more advanced materials and get more input in english in general. And then really get going with japanese . Thx everyone.

rfv14 Wrote:After reading your post Stansfield123 I'm no longer so sure, that I have really spent enough time on these things to expect tremendous results.

You shouldn't expect any tangible results anymore. Progresses are hard to quantify at your stage, because you already know so much that anything new you learn seems insignificant in comparison ; but that does not mean you are not progressing. Learning more grammar at this stage will teach you the "whys" and perhaps the "hows", but in the end you'll just be learning about the language, which is never a waste of time, but you can't expect to take your English skills to the next level without some massive input.

And honestly, you should already be proud of what you've accomplished and just start enjoying English media. Isn't that why you learned English in the first place ?

I pretty much agree with everything erlog said above.

There's a big difference studying grammar again once you can read fairly well, because then you have a lot of context to put the "rules" in and will immediately see what you're reading about in real sources.

rfv14 Wrote:After reading your post Stansfield123 I'm no longer so sure, that I have really spent enough time on these things to expect tremendous results. I have read perhaps a dozen novels, watched a few seasons of some stupid american sitcoms and listened to only one podcast (The history of Rome - it's very good!). So beside studying grammar, I will try to find some more advanced materials and get more input in english in general. And then really get going with japanese . Thx everyone.

Find some good message boards too (or other social media, but in my opinion message boards are still the best form of social media), on subjects you're interested in. Keep in mind that most message boards cover many topics, not just the one they're overtly about. It's better to find a quality message board that covers your interests tangentially, than a crappy one that's all about what you're interested in.

Not only does active participation in message boards keep you actively engaged in conversation (which in itself is invaluable and leads to better progress than passive listening or reading), it also gives you the opportunity to experiment with new expressions (and, unlike in other forms of communication, you have the time to look things up to make sure you're using them right, pay attention to the spell checker, etc.), but it also lets you mold your style of speaking to fit the particular community you're in. Obviously, my personality and views come across wherever I post (sometimes much to certain people's chagrin), but it's inevitable to try to hold back and to some extent accommodate the general attitude on a given message board. And the best way to do that, without throttling your personality, is through the nuanced use of language.

And of course message boards, like all social media, are addictive, so making a habit out of visiting them comes easily.

rfv14 Wrote:From my own experience I can say that exactly the opposite seems to be true. I have ditched them, but I still haven't acquired the "feel".

rfv14 can you be more specific by what you mean by 'feel' ?

If you can do that we will be able to help you more

Well, all someone have (should) to do is to learn basic grammar and a little bit beyond that. As long as the person have a foundation to build on he will learn all the other grammar points and nuance by just "using" native material and searching here and there stuff up.
I did the same with English. I never learnt beyond school grammar, (3rd to 8th class, after that I lost my motivation in school). But since 3-4 years (especially the last 2 years) I am doing almost everything in English, like reading news article's, watching anime's with english subtitles, (soon with no subtitles) reading manga, being active in English forum's and so on. I never studied in that time and the only thing where I think I need improvement is vocabulary (and even here I improved a lot without even learning for the past ~4 years, but if I would be serious about learning English I would definitely learn them with Anki)
I never had any problems with grammar at all and noticed how far ahead my english skills actually are compared to my classmate's and friends. And that only through using native material.
But I also think that if someone is serious about learning a language than he should still go through advanced grammar books to get a clearer idea of the language.

So yes, I think Lival is right with his statement.

What I'm about to say may seem a bit heartless (sorry man ), but I would like to be able to point out grammatical mistakes in He4rtl3ss' post, but not just missed "hases and haves". I would say that I have a feel in a language if I just knew whether his choice of Future Simple in the second sentence: "As long as the person have a foundation to build on he will learn all the other grammar points..." was correct. Shouldn't he have used the to be going to construction as he seems pretty confident about the use of native materials and that it's gonna help? I really can't decide. I guess I would like to be like a native speaker - think like they do. Be able to choose between different shades of meaning, not necessarily distinguished in my first language. Let me give you an example:
Mom calls me and asks "What's up?" (or in polish "Co tam?")
my answer in polish: "kolega przyszedł mnie odwiedzić". It comes naturally to my mind. Even though the polish grammar forces me to specify gender of that friend (it could have been "koleżanka" after all), it doesn't bother me, because I'm used to provide that kind of information.
But in english I have to choose between these four sentences:
1. "A friend has come to visit me"
2. "The friend has come to visit me"
3. "A friend came to visit me"
4. "The friend came to visit me"
1 and 2 imply that this friend is still in my house, 3 and 4 that he's already gone, 1 and 3 that he/she is a random friend, and finally 2 and 4 imply that I know that my mother knows pretty well who that friend is.
I want one of these sentences to just spring in my mind as the "correct one", but none of them does.

Unfortunately I think 'the feel' just comes from experience. Using your examples starting "The friend..." sound a little strange to me although they are proper English sentences. I doubt you will find why they sound strange in any grammar book. I only know this because I've lived with English my whole life.

Don't feel bad though, I know people who've spoken English for over 20 years and still don't have the feel for when to use 'a' and when to use "the" sometimes. I understand Japanese if worse, where native speakers can leave Japan for a year or two and upon returning to Japan, have people telling them that their Japanese is off.

I think you could find the explanation; there are some very detailed grammar books out there. In this case I think it's the basic rule that you use "a" to introduce new things into the discourse and "the" to refer to things already mentioned.

rfv14 Wrote:, because I'm used to provide that kind of information.

"Providing", unless you mean she's using you to provide ~.

He4rtl3ss: 's denotes possession (or "~ is"), never plural. "If I were", not "would be".

erlog Wrote:The advice to ditch the textbooks is worthwhile for a lot of beginners because they don't realize they really can get used to reading native material even if it's a slog at first. Beginners pick up a book, find that it takes so much time, then come to the conclusion they need to study from textbooks more. Then they come back, and it's still hard. So they use more textbooks. They don't realize that if they put up with that slog for a few days or weeks they can eventually power through it enough to be able to read native material more comfortably.

This was me. The only problem is it's simply not enjoyable when it's that hard.

rfv14 Wrote:1. "A friend has come to visit me"
2. "The friend has come to visit me"
3. "A friend came to visit me"
4. "The friend came to visit me"

If you want to learn those things from native materials... your native materials must clearly distinguish between them in such a way that it is obvious to you (Ie. to make the slight difference in meaning an important part of the story) . Most Japanese TV that I have watched does not

Quote:"Providing", unless you mean she's using you to provide ~.

thx Vempele! I really appreciate that kind of corrections. If there are too many mistakes in a post then just point out the most striking/annoying one. It's a great help for foreigners. In my case I have never been to an english-speaking country or spoken to a native english person, so such exchanges over the internet are sometimes the only way to get some input on your skill. No matter how long you speak in english with a Finn or a Spaniard, he is unlikely to correct you, because he is himself not entirely certain if he is speaking correctly.
Anyway thx again for all advices. What I get now is that watching american tv and reading wikipedia articles is a lot of fun, but it's not good enough to learn the language. Now I need to look for an advanced english textbook.