john555 Wrote:I want to acquire a reading knowledge of Old English (Anglo Saxon) because I'm a native English speaker and I've all of Shakespeare's plays and most of Chaucer in the original Middle English.

English rocks!

I used to be able to read Anglo-Saxon sans dictionary, but it has pretty much disappeared from disuse. If you want to learn it, I suggest getting the book Wordhoard, as well as Mitchell and Robbins guide. Floating around on the web there is a free grammar called "King Alfred's Grammar." Those three will get you pretty much up too speed.


And as far as modern English literature goes, Shakespeare might be more influential, but I think Milton takes the cake for being the technically best writer.

frosty_rain Wrote:Well..came here because I thought this was a discussion about learning additional languages, not some kind of religion argument.

Gotta love forums.

It was inevitable the moment I said I was muslim, guess I should be careful about what I say.

I've been meaning to learn Persian because it uses exactly the same writing system but the similarities end there.... There's a youtube video where a teenager from New York speaks TWENTY different languages! The channel it's on is called Thinkr.

I also thought of learning Old English after listening to an awe-inspiring performance of Beowulf (and having to read it for an English Literature class; our book had an excerpt from the original to show the differences between Old English and Modern English).

I've thought about learning German, considering the number of pieces I've played by German composers; it also sounds cool.
I've also thought of learning Swedish, solely because I enjoy listening to Fintroll.
Spanish might also be nice, but despite its utility, I really don't have much reason to learn it and I've forgotten almost everything I learned in school (probably because I didn't care to learn it).

However, I've only really looked up a couple of things about these other languages: a few words from a song, a grammar point or two, or other little tidbits. I just haven't felt the pull that I feel with Japanese, though that's probably because I didn't spend a couple years innocently reading and watching their media...

Stansfield123 Wrote:I can think of a few things that are even less fair or sensible about Islam than the expectation that Muslims learn Arabic.

It's religious superstition, it's not supposed to be fair or make sense. People who want sense give up religion, they don't try to make it sensible.

Stansfield123 might be a twat but to be fair, this statement isn't very wrong.

As for the claim that only "true" Muslims (according to Muslims) read the Koran untranslated (in Arabic and not say English), this is the first time I've heard of such a thing. I wouldn't be surprised if such a socially-exclusive and divisive rule does exist though, coming from a religion that encourages apostasy (punishment, sometimes death, for giving up Islam).

qwertyytrewq Wrote:

Stansfield123 Wrote:I can think of a few things that are even less fair or sensible about Islam than the expectation that Muslims learn Arabic.

It's religious superstition, it's not supposed to be fair or make sense. People who want sense give up religion, they don't try to make it sensible.

Stansfield123 might be a twat but to be fair, this statement isn't very wrong.

As for the claim that only "true" Muslims (according to Muslims) read the Koran untranslated (in Arabic and not say English), this is the first time I've heard of such a thing. I wouldn't be surprised if such a socially-exclusive and divisive rule does exist though, coming from a religion that encourages apostasy (punishment, sometimes death, for giving up Islam).

If you know little about islam and muslims then don't blatantly bullshit to one, it's pathetic. Might I remind you what the topic of the post is? It's about learning multiple languages at the same time. Now get your head out of your ass and behave like a proper adult.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:

Stansfield123 Wrote:I can think of a few things that are even less fair or sensible about Islam than the expectation that Muslims learn Arabic.

It's religious superstition, it's not supposed to be fair or make sense. People who want sense give up religion, they don't try to make it sensible.

Stansfield123 might be a twat but to be fair, this statement isn't very wrong.

As for the claim that only "true" Muslims (according to Muslims) read the Koran untranslated (in Arabic and not say English), this is the first time I've heard of such a thing. I wouldn't be surprised if such a socially-exclusive and divisive rule does exist though, coming from a religion that encourages apostasy (punishment, sometimes death, for giving up Islam).

Fairly speaking, though, Islam is just a religion, as is any other of the mainstream religions. The practitioner is not the religion, which is to say that the practitioner can take something from the religion and twist it to mean whatever they want. Even atheists have their strict representatives (although not nearly as bad as some strict religious people are).

I've heard the claim about how only true Muslims read the Koran untranslated too, but it seems to have mostly come from sources that are strict in regards to Islam. Then again, sometimes Jewish people learn Hebrew in order to more purely read the Torah.

So it does make sense that someone would want to learn a language that is closely related to the origin of what they worship in order to be closer to their religion in general.

murtada Wrote:If you know little about islam and muslims then don't blatantly bullshit to one, it's pathetic. Might I remind you what the topic of the post is? It's about learning multiple languages at the same time. Now get your head out of your ass and behave like a proper adult.

I'd love to know nothing about Islam. Unfortunately, that's pretty difficult to do. It tends to make the news a lot.

As an aside , learning two languages at once is a bad idea. Learn one, then learn the other one.

Stansfield123 Wrote:

murtada Wrote:If you know little about islam and muslims then don't blatantly bullshit to one, it's pathetic. Might I remind you what the topic of the post is? It's about learning multiple languages at the same time. Now get your head out of your ass and behave like a proper adult.

I'd love to know nothing about Islam. Unfortunately, that's pretty difficult to do. It tends to make the news a lot.

As an aside , learning two languages at once is a bad idea. Learn one, then learn the other one.

Common sense will tell you not to trust only one source of information, especially something as biased as the media. Look at both sides of the fence please, maybe then you won't unnecessarily offend people. Ignorance will only hurt you in the end.

@TsugiAshi

It's not a must since some simply memorize what they need to know but for the vast majority it is a goal.

Hey, everyone. Hands off keyboards. Deep breaths.

I would suggest that if you want to discuss Islam, please make another Koohii Lounge thread on the topic with an appropriate title. This thread has already gone off the rails, and if it continues to devolve, I'm shutting it down.

Danke,

One of Your Friendly Neighborhood Admins

RandomQuotes Wrote:

john555 Wrote:I want to acquire a reading knowledge of Old English (Anglo Saxon) because I'm a native English speaker and I've all of Shakespeare's plays and most of Chaucer in the original Middle English.

English rocks!

I used to be able to read Anglo-Saxon sans dictionary, but it has pretty much disappeared from disuse. If you want to learn it, I suggest getting the book Wordhoard, as well as Mitchell and Robbins guide. Floating around on the web there is a free grammar called "King Alfred's Grammar." Those three will get you pretty much up too speed.


And as far as modern English literature goes, Shakespeare might be more influential, but I think Milton takes the cake for being the technically best writer.

I actually have a copy of Wordhoard (a hardcover copy). I've been reading through it.

I've made several attempts at reading Paradise Lost, but I've never been able to make it all the way through. One of these days I will.

I've read people say (and I agree) that Milton was consciously trying to imitate Latin sentence structures while writing in English. Hence the long, convoluted sentences in Paradise Lost.

Stansfield123 Wrote:As an aside , learning two languages at once is a bad idea. Learn one, then learn the other one.

Hardly so, in my opinion. It depends on a few factors though.

Are the languages different enough from each other? e.g. italian vs spanish or italian vs. japanese. You'll be very confused if you pick up two too similar languages at once..

How well do you know the languages? Having two languages on Anki rotation at the same time might be a bad idea, I agree.

Honestly speaking, most languages can be learned to a level that will make you automatically understand the remaining bits so fast that it's not so taxing to be learning two, even three at the same time. However you'll be dividing your available time between the languages so it's good to have at least 1h+ every day allocated to the activities, 2h+ if you're learning more than two languages.

Learning italian and swedish is a piece of cake after going through the early japanese studies.

Regardless of whether or not the languages are different, I think it's a bad idea to start learning two languages at the same time, or one shortly after the other. Once you've reached a decent level in your target language, that is, a point where you can comfortably read native material with minimal trips to the dictionary or maintain a decent conversation, then I guess you're good to give another language a go.

The real problem I assume would be one of time ; learning a language is a high maintenance activity ... so two at once ? That would be a precarious balancing act.

murtada Wrote:Common sense will tell you not to trust only one source of information, especially something as biased as the media.

Well there's usually video. I also shouldn't be trusting video? Are you saying James Foley still has his head on his shoulders? Are you telling me that women are allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia, and they're not burned alive across half the Muslim world for being suspected of witchcraft?

That's all just media lies?

murtada Wrote:Look at both sides of the fence please, maybe then you won't unnecessarily offend people. Ignorance will only hurt you in the end.

You're the one who, when faced with a dissenting opinion about your religion, became offended. Not me. You. I can face anyone's views without being offended. You can tell me that atheists are all going to Hell, and at most I'll laugh. I'm not gonna be offended.

And yet, you insist that I'm the one who needs to look at both sides of the "fence". You can't even face a gentle reminder that your religion (not unlike all religion) doesn't really make sense, without telling people to ***** off and calling them twats.

Betelgeuzah Wrote:Hardly so, in my opinion. It depends on a few factors though.

Are the languages different enough from each other? e.g. italian vs spanish or italian vs. japanese. You'll be very confused if you pick up two too similar languages at once..

How well do you know the languages? Having two languages on Anki rotation at the same time might be a bad idea, I agree.

Honestly speaking, most languages can be learned to a level that will make you automatically understand the remaining bits so fast that it's not so taxing to be learning two, even three at the same time. However you'll be dividing your available time between the languages so it's good to have at least 1h+ every day allocated to the activities, 2h+ if you're learning more than two languages.

Learning italian and swedish is a piece of cake after going through the early japanese studies.

If you're actively learning vocab and grammar (with Anki, or reading up on it in textbooks), then doing two languages at once is counter-productive for several reasons:

1. it divides up your time and slows your progress, making the experience more frustrating than it needs to be

2. all languages are similar to a great degree, even languages that aren't related to each other, and they will all confuse you if studied two at a time

Sure, once you're at a point where you understand everything that's thrown at you in one language, and you're just working on sounding and writing like a native, it's fine to start a second language. But as long as you're actively trying to learn words and patterns from one, starting to also learn them from another makes zero sense. It's self sabotage at its finest.

Linval Wrote:Regardless of whether or not the languages are different, I think it's a bad idea to start learning two languages at the same time, or one shortly after the other. Once you've reached a decent level in your target language, that is, a point where you can comfortably read native material with minimal trips to the dictionary or maintain a decent conversation, then I guess you're good to give another language a go.

The real problem I assume would be one of time ; learning a language is a high maintenance activity ... so two at once ? That would be a precarious balancing act.

yes, i agree with you Linval and imma let you finish, but you didn't write your opinion on that muhammad guy! please don't troll anymore about how to learn two languages, nobody cares about that!

umetani666 Wrote:yes, i agree with you Linval and imma let you finish, but you didn't write your opinion on that muhammad guy! please don't troll anymore about how to learn two languages, nobody cares about that!

What muhammad guy? I don't know who that is. Mind posting a picture?

i don't have his picture at hand, but from what i remember, he looked kinda jewish. you know the type...

Stansfield123 Wrote:

Betelgeuzah Wrote:Hardly so, in my opinion. It depends on a few factors though.

Are the languages different enough from each other? e.g. italian vs spanish or italian vs. japanese. You'll be very confused if you pick up two too similar languages at once..

How well do you know the languages? Having two languages on Anki rotation at the same time might be a bad idea, I agree.

Honestly speaking, most languages can be learned to a level that will make you automatically understand the remaining bits so fast that it's not so taxing to be learning two, even three at the same time. However you'll be dividing your available time between the languages so it's good to have at least 1h+ every day allocated to the activities, 2h+ if you're learning more than two languages.

Learning italian and swedish is a piece of cake after going through the early japanese studies.

If you're actively learning vocab and grammar (with Anki, or reading up on it in textbooks), then doing two languages at once is counter-productive for several reasons:

1. it divides up your time and slows your progress, making the experience more frustrating than it needs to be

2. all languages are similar to a great degree, even languages that aren't related to each other, and they will all confuse you if studied two at a time

Sure, once you're at a point where you understand everything that's thrown at you in one language, and you're just working on sounding and writing like a native, it's fine to start a second language. But as long as you're actively trying to learn words and patterns from one, starting to also learn them from another makes zero sense. It's self sabotage at its finest.

1. Either that or it's a refreshing change of pace, especially if one language is more mentally exhausting and the other is not. If somebody likes learning languages and especially the textbook part of it as you know you're making a lot of progress quickly, then frustration is nothing but one individual's perception. And if you don't like learning languages, well, it would indeed be stupid to do a lot of something you don't like to do.

2. I guess that's your experience of it and that's fine. All I need is clear boundaries for studying one language at a time, not all of them simultaneously, and there is no problem whatsoever. I don't think I'm a special snowflake either.

By your reasoning I should still be studying English haha. That's not how it needs to work dude.

john555 Wrote:I've read people say (and I agree) that Milton was consciously trying to imitate Latin sentence structures while writing in English. Hence the long, convoluted sentences in Paradise Lost.

Well, he was. Kind of. Milton loved the Latin epics, but wanted to one up them for God. So pretty much most of paradise lost is based on the latin/greek epics but one uped for god.

http://people.umass.edu/sharris/in/gram/...ammar.html King Alfred's Grammar for those interested.

Post removed: personal and sexist insults against forum members.

Stansfield123 Wrote:

umetani666 Wrote:yes, i agree with you Linval and imma let you finish, but you didn't write your opinion on that muhammad guy! please don't troll anymore about how to learn two languages, nobody cares about that!

What muhammad guy? I don't know who that is. Mind posting a picture?

Post content removed. murtada - stop immediately with the personal insults on this thread. Another violation will result in a site ban.

I can't believe this, he insults my religion and i get in trouble for defending it? Please do your job properly, administrators; i never initiated anything. Just take down this pathetic thread. I make a thread about languages and get atheist hate.

This is truly surrealistic.

I'm still learning english passively (watching american tv show, reading books etc.), but it seems to me that I'm not making any progress as English grammar still bugs me :/. Hopefully japanese won't give me so much trouble as it doesn't have the two main obstacles of english grammar: articles and numerous tenses.
I would really like to be able to read many different writing systems, so arabic might be an interesting choice, but I will probably decide to kill two birds with one stone and learn hindu

murtada Wrote:I can't believe this, he insults my religion and i get in trouble for defending it? Please do your job properly, administrators; i never initiated anything. Just take down this pathetic thread. I make a thread about languages and get atheist hate.

He more or less just indicated facts about Islam in a biased and intentionally antagonistic manner. It might have come off as insulting, but really it was more trollish than anything imo.

I think the person who innocently mentioned that Muhammad looked Jewish would come off as more insulting. I would think to some Muslims that there would be so much sacrilege going on with that thought.