Rina Wrote:Good point. I think that's it! Now that you mention, I always have this thing for doing things fast and reading is no exception. I should change the mindset from fast and superficial to slow and enjoyable.

Thanks a bunch! You just made my day! ^^

Happy to hear that, hope it helps ^^

I don't think this round was a complete failure. There may not have been much discussion but there do seem to have been people who read and enjoyed the books.

About spoilers

I agree that worrying about spoilers kills discussion, but for me it is a big deal. If a book's worth reading while already knowing what's going to happen then I can do that as many times as I want after finishing it, but not knowing is limited to the first time only. A lot of the enjoyment I get from reading comes from imagining what's going to happen next (what will happen when these two meet? how will she react when the secret is revealed? etc) and pretty much every detail I learn in advance affects that.

Perhaps the best thing would be to have a thread for each chapter so that people can discuss freely any events up to that point. I think this would also provide a more focused topic for consideration and facilitate discussion when the group is spread out throughout the book, since comments relating to earlier chapters won't get buried by those pertaining to later ones. The shorter milestones provided by gaining access to each discussion might also be quite motivating.

The source of books

The best option is obviously the one that leads to the highest participation, but for me personally innocent books are the only viable option. If that's not what the group decides to stick with then fair enough but I won't be participating. Obviously there are some people for whom the reverse is true as well though.

If waiting for books to be delivered is a problem why not plan in advance what we're going to read for each round?

Rules to force participation

I like the idea of asking people to check in daily. Something that only takes 30 seconds like "Read 9999999999 pages today" or even "didn't read anything today. " would add a lot to the sense of reading as a group and I'm sure everyone would feel the urge to try and read at least one page so they had something to report.

If we do go with chapter threads then I also think it might be good to ask people to post a thought in the relevant thread whenever they finish a chapter. It can just be one sentence, but I think this would help fan the flames of discussion and it would add a lot to the the sense of community.

Choice of books

Last time we voted for books seperately based on difficulty, but I wonder if this was a mistake. The main reason for my poor participation (though I am still reading) was that the two books I hadn't already read were both romances and they don't interest me at all. If we're going to have multiple books to choose from I think it would be a good idea to make sure they're not too similar. I know the purpose behind it was practical, but if we're doing it anyway why not make the effort to cater to different tastes?

I also think since we're a small group that 2 difficulty levels is enough. Picking one book just because it's good and another for people who want something easy and good seems like a sensible way to do it.

I've been slow to get through 君にしか聞こえない this round because I've been determined to finish ねらわれた学園, as I would like this to be my first ever for no other reason than that I remember flicking through it as a beginner and finding it utterly incomprehensible. It's also slightly easier than 君.

I'm within 28 pages of finishing ねらわれた学園 and have a couple of chapters of 君 left, so there's a good chance I'll finish both today. I've also got a couple of weeks off work, so hope to get through the next book much quicker

I agree with Splatted about spoilers, but feel that the suggestions thus far are perhaps a bit heavy-handed. I'd be in favour of just putting a spoiler warning in the thread title and leaving it at that, or possibly having separate spoiler and non-spoiler threads for each book.

I also agree with Spatted about sources of books. If the 3000-odd innocent books are deemed insufficient, it would be possible to recommend books based on the wider availability of 'review' copies, which would then encompass currently popular light novels, for example. It is a curious feature of Google's search algorithm that including the word 'nyaa' in a search string can improve results considerably.

Frequent checks on progress would be motivating, but I prefer the idea of *encouraging* participation rather than forcing it though

I would worry that separate threads for every chapter would dilute the discussion too much. We'd end up with a bunch of abandoned threads all over the place. A chapter usually isn't long enough to merit a thread to discuss it unless the book is a real trudge to get through.

Agree with the difficulty thing though. Two tiers would probably do it - one that (theoretically) anyone could read and one that's just a good Japanese book without worrying about difficulty. I don't think the group is big enough to sustain three books.
Also, the nominations should probably at least include a blurb. Ideally the first page or too as well so it's easy to check if it's readable.

I guess that a thread per chapter might be overdoing it, but I do think it would be worth having a few threads per book. Especially if we choose another short story collection it seems sensible to have one for each story.

Edit: I don't think it will dilute the discussion if we have a sensible number of threads. Discussion of later sections isn't going to include people who haven't read that far so it makes sense to have separate threads where spoilers aren't an issue. It also means that discussion of earlier sections can be conducted without being broken up by posts about something else, and when slow readers complete a section they'll be able to open up a thread where that section is still what's being discussed. Faster readers can move on to discussing new things while easily coming back to talk about earlier sections with the slower readers.

Edit 2: I just think having a single thread where everyone's at different points in the book trying to talk about what they've read without spoiling anything is needlessly difficult and kills discussion. Making separate threads where it's clear what can be talked about makes things a lot easier and imho also provides a focus for the discussion. If some of them just die then that's not really a big deal, especially if they've allowed people to speak freely in another thread.

I guess something else to consider in the nomination system. Last time not too many people were willing to make a suggestion, and many of the nominations made were not suitable due to not being innocent or for whatever other reason. Also it was a bit rushed so there was no real opportunity to discuss the books or the original person to post a synopsis or explain why they thought it would be suitable.

So, as a starter for ten, perhaps we could do something like the following:

Have a defined start date and end date to the nomination period - perhaps one month. During this time, anyone who is interested registers their interest by posting in the thread. Each person who is interested should nominate at least 1 book they would like to read, along with a short synopsis and a summary of the reason why they think it is a good book for book club. Then, at the end of the period, everyone votes and whatever book wins becomes the choice for book club.

Perhaps everyone should get 3 votes, that way there is more chance of at least one of your votes will end up being the book that is chosen (which will increase buy-in and hopefully participation).

Splatted Wrote:The main reason for my poor participation (though I am still reading) was that the two books I hadn't already read were both romances and they don't interest me at all.

Hmm, really? I had to think about this to figure out which two books you meant. I guess there is an element of romance in each, but they are definitely not romance novels. 乙一's Wikipedia page lists him as a writer of horror short stories, and although きみにしか聞こえない is less grotesque than many of his stories, it certainly isn't a straightforward love story and has a bit of a sting in the tail. GO I would describe as a gritty coming of age story with the main theme being a 在日 coming to terms with his identity, and sub-plots involving quite a lot of violence, child abuse, racial discrimination and yes a bit of romance although again it has a sting in the tail.

Anyway, linking this back to my previous post, I guess this highlights the issues of not posting a synopsis of the books beforehand and explaining why they might be suitable.

For the record, I'm not a fan of romances and would never recommend one for book club.

Book nominations are hard if we're using just innocent books since there isn't really a good way to search for books worth reading. You have to identify a book or author that's interests you and then see if there's anything in there. On the one hand I think this is exactly why those of us who rely on them need a book club, but I have to admit that it does seem to make things needlessly difficult from the POV of the other members here。

I think it would be worthwhile to get a good idea of who we have in the group and what their reading needs are so I've created a strawpoll to help with that. http://strawpoll.me/2766497

Perhaps we shouldn't be splitting things by easy/hard but by kindle/innocent. Perhaps we need an easy kindle book but not an easy innocent book or vica versa. This isn't a poll to decide what we do, just to see what we need to consider when making the decision.

NickT Wrote:although きみにしか聞こえない is less grotesque than many of his stories, it certainly isn't a straightforward love story and has a bit of a sting in the tail.

I learned this pretty much straight after making that post. XD

NickT Wrote:GO I would describe as a gritty coming of age story with the main theme being a 在日 coming to terms with his identity, and sub-plots involving quite a lot of violence, child abuse, racial discrimination and yes a bit of romance although again it has a sting in the tail.

Thanks, it sounds like I made a mistake dismissing this. I somehow went in thinking it was a romance and then the second paragraph contained "これは僕の恋愛に関する物語だ" and that just sealed the deal in my mind. Looking at it again I can see that it doesn't really read like the opening to a romance novel and it only says "恋愛に関する物語だ" not 恋愛の物語. Perhaps this highlights that I need to read more.

Sorry for the double post, but another thought wrt where we draw our nominations from. If there are enough of us perhaps we can nominate and vote on books regardless of their source (innocent readers would obviously vote for innocent books) and then if the winner isn't an innocent book we can just have the innocent readers vote on a book for themselves. This way we avoid dividing the group, realbook readers don't have to worry about what's available to others and innocent readers can benefit from their suggestions.

"Innocent" is the worst euphemism for "piracy" I've ever seen.

yudantaiteki Wrote:"Innocent" is the worst euphemism for "piracy" I've ever seen.

"every child's wish is to be a pirate; every child is innocent; Therefore piracy is innocent;" (cit. Socrates)

xD

yudantaiteki Wrote:"Innocent" is the worst euphemism for "piracy" I've ever seen.

I've been reading the forum for an year but I got it about a week ago

sunehiro Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:"Innocent" is the worst euphemism for "piracy" I've ever seen.

I've been reading the forum for an year but I got it about a week ago

The thread has been around for years; I'm not sure why it's allowed to stay up. Or the thread about reviews that specifically asks people to post reviews only of books that can be pirated.

I know it's unfashionable to be critical of piracy, and I'm not pretending that no one will ever pirate anything or that anyone who does is awful. It does bother me that there's apparently this group of "innocent readers" who have decided categorically that they will not pay a cent for a Japanese book no matter what.

Thank you for this interlude, Yudantaitekitachi.

So, for the next book...should we do as NickT suggested and start a thread to choose a book, with each person writing a post for one book with a blurb explaining what it is.
Let's set the date for 3 weeks after that thread opens. I guess the suggestions would have to be in my 2 weeks from thread open, and the final week will be voting. If after the first week, not enough suggestions are gathered, people can add a second book. Once I get a response from one or two folks that this is sensible enough, I'll create a thread if Gaiaslastlaugh doesn't get to it first, hehe.

yudantaiteki Wrote:

sunehiro Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:"Innocent" is the worst euphemism for "piracy" I've ever seen.

I've been reading the forum for an year but I got it about a week ago

The thread has been around for years; I'm not sure why it's allowed to stay up. Or the thread about reviews that specifically asks people to post reviews only of books that can be pirated.

I know it's unfashionable to be critical of piracy, and I'm not pretending that no one will ever pirate anything or that anyone who does is awful. It does bother me that there's apparently this group of "innocent readers" who have decided categorically that they will not pay a cent for a Japanese book no matter what.

That's actually a very valid point - this is technically a violation of forum policy that's been tolerated for a while. I'll bring it up with our dear leader. (Not pointing fingers, fyi - I've been complicit too.)

[Katsuo]

yudantaiteki Wrote:It does bother me that there's apparently this group of "innocent readers" who have decided categorically that they will not pay a cent for a Japanese book no matter what.

Is that true though? I prefer to pay for things if I use them extensively, but sometimes try pirated versions first to check them out. I wonder if the “innocent books” threads have led to increased sales overall.

Katsuo Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:It does bother me that there's apparently this group of "innocent readers" who have decided categorically that they will not pay a cent for a Japanese book no matter what.

Is that true though? I prefer to pay for things if I use them extensively, but sometimes try pirated versions first to check them out. I wonder if the “innocent books” threads have led to increased sales overall.

I've made it clear on a number of occasions that I purchase all my books. All 3 of the books chosen for round 1 of book club are available on the Kindle and that is how I purchased and read them. They are all also available "innocently".

It is a curious fact that that if these books weren't available "innocently" then I probably would never have purchased them, as the original recommendations came from other forum members who discovered them first innocently and wrote about them. I would never have heard of them without the various threads on this forum.

In fact, not only have I purchased and read those books, but off the back of that I have purchased and read other books by the same authors. I am on my third book by 金城 一紀 atm, and have read 6 books by 乙一, all purchased using real money. I've not gotten around to any other books by 桜坂 洋 yet, but someday I probably will. I've also recommended them to various other people, many of whom have no idea what an innocent book is.

I've noted a number of other people in this thread also talk about ordering paper copies of the books and getting them delivered.

I guess the question is whether all of the extra copies of the books purchased as a result of threads like this, cancel out the loss of sales from other people who might have purchased the book and didn't.

I want to bump this strawpoll about reading needs since it seems to have gotten buried: http://strawpoll.me/2766497

yudantaiteki Wrote:It does bother me that there's apparently this group of "innocent readers" who have decided categorically that they will not pay a cent for a Japanese book no matter what.

Who has decided this? Buying a kindle or committing to importing books regularly would be a significant financial investment and I don't think it's unreasonable that some of us aren't willing (or able?) to do that in order to participate in this club. If piracy meant I never payed for anything that can be found online I'd be pretty rich by now.

@tashippy:
Sounds good.
Quick question - is the idea to nominate books that we have already read and enjoyed, or to books that we haven't yet read but sound interesting?

As for piracy - if there isn't an economical way for people to buy books then, y'know - 仕方ない. So long as the rest of us aren't expected to take that into account when choosing books I don't care - ultimately here it's the people who don't buy things that are missing out. Shutting out discussion of pirated things completely here isn't going to help anyone learn Japanese.

@Aikynaro,
Good question. I'm finding it harder to answer than I thought. So what makes the perfect second-language book club book? I was actually thinking of nominating kokoro, even though many of us have read it, just because then we could really get into discussing the book's meaning, history, and recalling our first experiences, but maybe I'll spare you. It also has an audiobook, so maybe that's a different ballgame. It's really up to you and you certainly restricted to books you have already read, unless you would like to read them again and alongside other folks and discussion.

I wish I could cut and paste that whole piracy bit to a new thread. It was hard enough to consider everyone's suggestions when they were the only posts.

I vote we allow people to recommend whatever they want whether they've read it or not. As long they make it clear why they're recommending it we can always not vote for it if we don't want to take the chance, and I suspect the other option is to only get nominations from the most voracious readers.

I like the idea of asking (not requiring) each member to make a nomination but beginner level readers shouldn't feel any pressure to do so. If they can it's a bonus.

P.s. Did I imagine it or did someone somewhere mention that 乙一 wrote a book of dark fairy tales or something? I was thinking I might like to read it but can't remember what it was called.

P.p.s. Can whoever put "other" in the strawpoll please explain. I put t in just in case but I can't think of what it could actually mean. XD

[Katsuo]

Splatted Wrote:P.s. Did I imagine it or did someone somewhere mention that 乙一 wrote a book of dark fairy tales or something? I was thinking I might like to read it but can't remember what it was called.

乙一：暗黒童話 I guess. Avoid it if you are squeamish about eyes.

That sounds like it.

Katsuo Wrote:

Splatted Wrote:P.s. Did I imagine it or did someone somewhere mention that 乙一 wrote a book of dark fairy tales or something? I was thinking I might like to read it but can't remember what it was called.

乙一：暗黒童話 I guess. Avoid it if you are squeamish about eyes.

Oooh, putting on the must-read pile.

Thanks for the feedback. So we will open up a thread soon to let people make self introductions and/or state interest in the book club, and nominate a book if they feel so inclined, and explain why it would be a good book club book.
Let's keep talking here about what the book club should entail and where/how it should take place. When that starts to form hopefully over the next few days, we can get the nominations thread started.