Every day I try listening to some kind of spoken voice (video, games, radio, ...). So far I'm doing okay and moving forward. I already managed to complete several games and series without any subs, and feel like I can follow along most of the time (rare exceptions include series like GITS, where things get a little too philosophic sometimes).

But lately I've been watching some Japanese television shows and I noticed how people sounded really different IRL. I also tried eavesdropping on a group of Japanese people at the airport, and I feel ashamed to admit I even thought they were speaking Chinese for a moment!

I'm going to be staying for several months in Japan next year and I feel a little scared as I likely won't be able to understand a lot of what they're saying. I'm staying in the Kansai region, don't know how the accent is there? Is it easy to adapt to? I heard Tokyo accent is the easiest to understand (sounds like the speakers on NHK television). Does it sound alike? What's your experience with "fake" vs "real" speech? Any tips?

Tokyo accent is the "official" one, which means it's the one you hear if you are a student of japanese. It's known for removing trailing ~u and ~i from syllabes (most obvious example, "des" instead of "desu" for です), while the japanese from other regions (Osaka, Kansai) keep it. It is said that Osaka accent sounds girly and the locals will adore any foreigner that speaks in this accent. The Edo accent sounds manly and girls fall in love just by listening to it. I personally prefer Osaka accent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansai_dialect

About not understanding certain accents from other parts of Japan, that is not surprising. Even japanese have trouble understanding the accent of Hiroshima and northern Japan. However, I would worry more for the differences between everyday spoken japanese and academic japanese.

ColdCore Wrote:Every day I try listening to some kind of spoken voice (video, games, radio, ...). So far I'm doing okay and moving forward. I already managed to complete several games and series without any subs, and feel like I can follow along most of the time (rare exceptions include series like GITS, where things get a little too philosophic sometimes).

But lately I've been watching some Japanese television shows and I noticed how people sounded really different IRL. I also tried eavesdropping on a group of Japanese people at the airport, and I feel ashamed to admit I even thought they were speaking Chinese for a moment!

They say a lot of the same things....the reason people sound different IRL is because they would slur their speech, shout, talk faster, talk strange, doesn't talk clearly, doesn't say complete sentences etc...

Other than that a lot of the vocab or whatever is similar.

DrJones Wrote:It is said that Osaka accent sounds girly and the locals will adore any foreigner that speaks in this accent. The Edo accent sounds manly and girls fall in love just by listening to it. I personally prefer Osaka accent.

As far as I've been aware, the widely accepted image is the reverse of this. Kansai dialect is often said to be "rougher" than standard Japanese. I've also heard a number of people from Kansai, Tohoku and Kyushu say they were a little surprised at how men in Kanto sound softer.

If I were going to live in Kansai, first I'd take a look at something like http://www.kansaiben.com/ to get a grasp on the grammatical differences. If you don't know that something like こうた is the same as 買った, then a lot of basic stuff that you already know will go over your head.

As for learning to speak the dialect yourself, I'm not sure how important that is. Using simple things like わ, やん and やねん etc will probably be enough to help you fit in as a foreigner.

DrJones Wrote:Tokyo accent is the "official" one, which means it's the one you hear if you are a student of japanese. It's known for removing trailing ~u and ~i from syllabes (most obvious example, "des" instead of "desu" for です), while the japanese from other regions (Osaka, Kansai) keep it. It is said that Osaka accent sounds girly and the locals will adore any foreigner that speaks in this accent. The Edo accent sounds manly and girls fall in love just by listening to it. I personally prefer Osaka accent.

This is all astoundingly wrong, to the point of being humorous. Where exactly did you get this information?

I think the difference between Kansai Dialect and Standard Dialect is deep, so I'm often surprised when people play it down on this forum. When I first came to Japan I lived with a host family in Kansai and didn't understand a word of it--only when I looked up a bit of Kansai-Ben did I learn that they were using. Of course, my general Japanese level was not that high, but the dialect made things all the more difficult.

I noticed it because I learned that in Kansai verbs are negated with へん instead of ない. I heard my host mother say わからへん (instead of わからない), and that's when I realized what was going on. Then I lived and taught in Kyoto and I quickly noticed a lot of other things: there's a new type of polite suffix -はる which especially in Kyoto is like a whole different version of distal polite/honorific language; I noticed that everyone said おおきに instead of ありがとう; and I noticed that students asked for teachers with おられますか instead of いらっしゃいますか.

Later on I read about Kansai-Ben, bought some books about it, and I got better at it. There's also an anime called Lovely Complex that's entirely in Kansai Ben, and watching it was great practice (it's supposed to be for 13 year old girls but it was a major guilty pleasure for me, haha).

DrJones Wrote:Even japanese have trouble understanding the accent of Hiroshima and northern Japan.

Hiroshima dialect really doesn't strike me as a particularly difficult one for outsiders to understand. It's got the same basic Western Japanese grammatical patterns as the Osaka dialect, but without the Kansai intonation. In fact something very similar (but not identical to) the Hiroshima dialect is often used in fiction as a stereotypical speech pattern of old people and/or old-fashioned nobles (the way it was explained to me, it's actually based on Edo era Kansai dialect which was both a social marker and a generational marker in Edo, where there were many families whose elders had moved from Kyoto). Perhaps you meant the Kagoshima dialect?

[Zgarbas]

I find it much easier to follow what people are saying IRL than in movies since they're actual people and you can just stop them and ask them what they're saying, follow their gestures, watch their mouth movements to form out the sounds, etc. Overhearing people talk? Not so much. Podcasts? Ugh, just no.

Kansai ben varies a lot from city to city so yeah, as previous posters said, you might want to check out local slang first. Most people will most likely talk standard Japanese to you, though.

To be honest, I don't think you should worry about understanding Japanese people in Kansai. I used to live in Mie, where there is also Kansai-ben, and while I was still adjusting to the dialect, adults would often tone it down for me. My students, however... ^^;

To the person above who said that Japanese people would love a foreigner who speaks in a dialect, I would like to say that in most cases the exact opposite is true. Can you imagine if a Japanese person with a pretty good (but not native) level of English came up to you and spoke in a Texan accent? Or a Liverpudlian one? It's hilarious, and you'd encourage them but it wouldn't be very cool, right? I knew a guy who'd go out of his way to speak in Kansai-ben and people would compliment him, but in the same way you'd compliment a seal who can walk on its tail and clap at the same time.

Thanks for the great info everyone! I will definitely check out the Kansai-ben grammar, had no idea there were so many differences in terms of grammar (just thought they spoke rather funny!).

@Zgarbas: I'll be staying in Osaka actually. Does that differ a lot? Anything specific to Osakan (is that how you would write it?) ?

Kotoko Wrote:To the person above who said that Japanese people would love a foreigner who speaks in a dialect, I would like to say that in most cases the exact opposite is true. Can you imagine if a Japanese person with a pretty good (but not native) level of English came up to you and spoke in a Texan accent?

I think the case is different if you're a foreigner in Texas or a gaijin in Kansai... if you're a foreign learner, I think it's certainly worthwhile to try to imitate the local speech as much as possible at least while you're there. Whether you retain that accent later really depends on whether you master it or not, and whether you have a chance to live in a region with more 'mainstream' speech. I think it's definitely preferable to speak with a fluent Texan accent or a Kansai accent than with thick foreign classroom accent...

(edit: Also, I think it is usually called 'Osakaben' rather than 'Osakan' .... and if you search the web for 'osakaben' or '大坂弁’　you may find something useful.)

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ColdCore Wrote:@Zgarbas: I'll be staying in Osaka actually. Does that differ a lot? Anything specific to Osakan (is that how you would write it?) ?

Osaka-ben has several differences from standard Kansai-ben. The most obvious example is that they inflect negatives to ～えへん. So わからない becomes わかれへん(Osaka) instead of かわらへん(Kansai). Thus if you are staying there its best to just focus on how people around you speak.

As Tzadeck alluded to it's pretty difficult to learn it until you Japanese is higher level so go for learning the high level differences and then massively improve your Japanese. Also, don't learn from the internet. Get the locals to teach the differences and find people who will help correct you. Learning a dialect is not just some simple search-and-replace problem where you can memorize all of the rules. You need to get enough real-time practice that you can internalize both recognition and production.

I just came across http://osakaben.osakazine.net/ while looking for an example for どつく. The example was more colourful than 大辞林.

A　「あほや～。お前こんなんも出来ひんのん？？あほ～あほ～」
B　「お前、ええ加減にせんとどつくぞ」
A　「どつかんでええやん。ごめんやで～」

[Zgarbas]

I just had my first impromptu Kansai experience this month :O. I managed quite well with osakaben. It helps that it's the dialect that I've been most exposed to, since it comes up in anime quite a bit, but it still took me a while to understand the first person who used it when talking to me. She mumbled a lot to boot, so at first I didn't understand much; it wasn't until they said いけへん that I realised I was facing my first 関西弁speaker. It was rather exciting. I also managed to hold my own against 淡路弁.

That being said, people in Osaka are mean =( They kept doing that thing where they spoke poor English to me even though I was talking in Japanese. It was funny the first time it happened but it got really old really fast =( those who *did* speak Japanese to me went straight to casual speech. So rude.

Re: using a dialect as a foreign speaker... everyone has an accent. It's inevitable that you'll end up with one, and no one wants to sound like a TV announcer. There's no reason why anyone wouldn't learn 関西弁while living in 関西 aside from elitism.

I think you're at a higher level of Japanese than me. I just spent 3 months in Japan...I think the entire first 2 weeks was a feeling of "holy crap I don't understand anything." Japanese people will mumble, slur their words, speak quickly, or use unusual patterns or vocb. You will be nervous, trying to understand them rather than come up with an answer, and will probably feel frustrated and have a pretty big wound to your ego. BUT you will adjust. Some people will always people easy to understand, and yet there's always that one old man who you just know you'll never understand because he speaks too quickly, and when you say "sorry, please speak slower," he'll roll his eyes and gesture for someone to translate for him.
My first 2 weeks I felt like I never understood anything. I didn't talk much. But things slowly changed, and my 4th week in Japan, another foreigner joined the house I was at. I saw him stumble on the same basic questions I stumbled on at first ("where are you from?" can be hard to understand when it's slurred, spoken fast and surprises you), and found myself translating for him. For my next 2 months in Japan, I had steadily growing confidence, and understand people a lot easier.
I think you also get used to non-verbal clues more, figure out how to ask people to slow down or speak clearly or say it again because you didn't hear (not that you didn't understand), and just calm down and manage to keep up with speakers more.

I spent about a month in the Kansai region. I didn't notice in accent in Kyoto or Osaka or Hiroshima, but all the natives I talked to there said that they didn't have the accent, even if they were born in that region. I'm sure if you do encounter some heavily-accented Osakan, you can find some nearby, standard-accent Japanese person to help you out. In general, I found Japanese people to be very friendly and helpful, and in each crowd there's one person who's lived in the US or Canada who can help you in English too.

Don't be afraid! There's definitely an adjustment period, but it will be an amazing experience, and you will find ways to solve every situation and surpass every language barrier. Not everyone in each area has the local accent either - I never heard any kansai-ben, despite actively searching for it.

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Zgarbas Wrote:There's no reason why anyone wouldn't learn 関西弁while living in 関西 aside from elitism.

I haven't learned to speak the local dialect of English in every place I've lived in the US, and that's not because of elitism. It's because of "why bother?"

Try watching variety shows online to get used to more natural and spontaneous speech. It just takes time, but if you can understand a lot of television and radio then I wouldn't worry too much.

As for the Kansai problem- I would suggest studying in order to understand it but not necessarily in order to use it. If you wind up with an accent by being around accented people then no big deal. Unless you're anti-accents. Kansai-ben is known for being contagious amongst Japanese people. But becoming infected with a certain way of speaking isn't something that happens overnight or over the course of a few weeks. I think a big thing that might mess with your listening comprehension in Kansai is the intonation and overall.. differentness.. in the way people talk. But, if you look at some of the common patterns and phrases online and listen a bit before you go, I don't think you'll have too much trouble.

That having been said, people have varying amounts of accent even within a small area. I noticed that a lot of the young people I met at college in Kobe didn't use particularly strong Kansai-ben, but the people I tend to run into these days who work in the restaurant business or live in more "The Kansai" types of places, like the older areas of Osaka, use almost exclusively kansai-ben. Yes, on the internet and in writing as well. Most can immitate Standard Japanese word choice but changing their intonation 100% into Standard is likely impossible without having lived outside of Kansai for some time. Also, many people will rephrase into Standard Japanese if they don't think their kansai-ben has been understood by the person with whom they are speaking so I wouldn't actually worry too much about it. Unless you're talking to the Osakan sushi chef I met during my first week in Japan. Then you're screwed.

[Zgarbas]

Quote:I think you're at a higher level of Japanese than me.

Nah, my Japanese is awful. I just stopped caring about it at one point. Awful for actual Japanese skills but it makes life in Japan *so* much easier.

Arupan Wrote:My theory is that the better your pronunciation is, the smaller the chance people will talk to you in English (which eventually gets near zero).

I was told to expect this before I moved here, but since it never happens in Nagoya I was rather surprised. The obviously traveling apparel might have helped, but still...

Quote:What's more, if you were to, say, have a girlfriend / boyfriend, you wouldn't completely sound like her or him, right?

Fun, true story: I dated this person who used a specific Romanian dialect for a few years. One of its traits is that it uses a tense which is not used anywhere else in the country. Without meaning to, I've started using it myself and even a year following our breakup I still haven't reverted to the standard one. Some things just stick. I'm an empathetic speaker so for me matching my speaking partner is pretty important... in theory. In practice it varies.
I've had people point out that my Japanese is very Chinese, which makes sense given the fact that 90% of the people with whom I use Japanese are Chinese students. It happens.

Quote:Saying that you can't speak proper Japanese anymore, on the other hand, is just... illogical and very, very doubtful.

Is it that hard to believe that some people would so get used to dialect that they would neglect proper speech in favour of the one they actually use in everyday life? Then again, I don't know anything about Japanese on the internet since I avoid Japanese websites and forums like the plague *shrugs*. I've met people who feel highly uncomfortable using です・ます since they didn't use it when learning Japanese off the streets, and me and many other students had a hard time *not* using です・ます since it was drilled into our heads in class that we should always be polite.

Quote:Another thing. Sorry for asking but what was the reason for you to speak in 淡路弁 anyway? As far as I know pretty much all people in Nagoya speak in either 名古屋弁 or 三河弁.

Went to Tokushima for the 阿波踊り . Had a stopover in Osaka on the way, hence my first 大阪弁 experience.
People in Nagoya just use 標準語 when I'm around, but with a bit of Nagoya pitch thrown in.

Quote:I haven't learned to speak the local dialect of English in every place I've lived in the US, and that's not because of elitism. It's because of "why bother?"

You don't *have* to, but actively resisting implementing local language is a bit strange to me. Communication is the main point of learning a language, and switching to local language just seems a natural way of facilitating it *shrug*.

(This is all very silly coming from a person with an English accent unintelligible to most people around them. I've actually been trying to practice an Eastern European accent since it's easier understood than the... South African?... that I seem to be stuck on. )

Becoming truly fluent in a second dialect is quite difficult, even in your native language. It's very common for people to be fluent in both their own dialect and the "standard" language but being fluent in multiple dialects is pretty rare. As long as you speak the standard language you won't have any trouble communicating in most cases.

I have a feeling that if I went to live in Alabama and tried to speak southern dialect, I would mostly just get laughed at.

My sister and I are from the US, but she's lived in England for almost 9 years and it's interesting how she deals with it. She literally has like a slide and is always jumping between different degrees of English and American dialect depending on who she's talking to, or even the topic of conversation (some jokes makes more sense in one of the dialects, etc.). Even weirder is that she originally married some posh guy so she'll sometimes do a posh-ish accent in the right company. Anyway, when she first started sounding English people did indeed make fun of her about it, but after a while she somehow molded it until it seems normal to British people, even when it's obvious that she's not actually British by birth.

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[Zgarbas]

Arupan Wrote:You seem to be easily influenced by others when it comes to your language skills. Interesting.

I'm a type B personality all the way, what can I say.

Quote:Yes, it's hard to believe.

Have you never read chiebukuro?

A few times when it popped up on google. All Japanese websites give me a headache so i avoid them like the plague.

Quote:OK, so it was hard for you to start talking in casual speech cause マス形 was drilled into your head but while the whole standard Japanese again should be drilled in your head, you still start practicing dialects and have no problems with it... Hm. Am I the only one sensing a bit of a contradiction here? ^^;

I'm sorry, I don't understand your point. However yes, I am full of self-contradictions, unfortunately =(. Languages and I have a strenuous relationship.

Quote:That is most likely 名古屋弁. It is very close to 標準語 (or you can call it 共通語) with a only a few key difference, the most frequent of which are: ～てる→～とる、言う「いう」→言う「ゆう」、来れば「くれば」→来れば「これば」 and 靴 has a reverse accent. 三河弁, on the other hand, is quite distinctive.

さぁ～。I've mentioned this before, but I don't even realise if people are speaking polite or informal language. I'm just really ignorant. Sometimes I hang out with this group of friends where one is an okinawan and at times they stop their conversation to laugh at diverging accents, but I never notice them.