Back

How long did it take you to finish RtK 1?

#26
Eminem2 Wrote:What's even worse, even if you manage to somehow master all of the RTK1 Kanji going Heisig key word --> Kanji, you will eventually find that in far too many cases you have been working with a key word that is effectively useless. Either because the key word is simply wrong, or because the Kanji in question is mostly used in combinations that add up to a meaning significantly different from the first word listed in a dictionary for the Kanji in isolation. (And quite often, Heisig simply appears to have picked the first English word listed in a Kanji dictionary without much consideration for how the Kanji is actually used in everyday Japanese. Which is not all that surprising, because Heisig didn't know that much Japanese when he first published RTK1.)
I used a deck with around 10/15 example words per Kanji when I re-did RTK (lite). I ended up changing some of the keywords as I went along for this very same reason; in a number of cases I used two keywords and had to recall both to pass the card.

Quote:In my own experience though, knowing all of the RTK1 Kanji isn't that much help when starting with Japanese grammar.
+1. Most beginner level grammar is presented with minimal kanji, so knowing 2k Kanji will not help until you move outside of N5 stuff. The same goes for the JLPT, if you're used to reading with Kanji, or used Core to learn vocab, then the reading passages will be tricky at first.

I fully remember reading simple like:
わたしはパンをたくさんたべました。
Was harder/slower than:
私はパンをたくさん食べました。or even 私はパンを沢山食べました。

To answer the OP:
Second time around (RTK lite, ~1100 kanji), I added 20 a day until ~800 then slowed down to 10 a day for the last 300. That would be in the region of 70 days.

First time around, I did a lesson a day until part 2. Then slowed down to 10 a day. At some point I stopped adding, deleted the deck, and moved to vocab -- I wouldn't do this Smile
Reply
#27
Well, fair enough I guess you could argue that waiting with even basic grammar until after RTK doesn't have any huge merits. But to turn it around, doing them in parallel doesn't seem to have any merit at all in my opinion. Also, sure you don't need 2k kanji for JLPT4-5 or to do grammar, but since the order of the kanji in RTK is not most used to least used, but completely centered around the primitives, you basically have to do the whole book to run into all the really useful ones.

The only grammar I ever studied was Tae Kim's guide, and at least for that I think that it is not only super easy words and kanji that appears and that having done RTK before will certainly be very helpful.
Reply
#28
AlgoRhythmic Wrote:The only grammar I ever studied was Tae Kim's guide, and at least for that I think that it is not only super easy words and kanji that appears and that having done RTK before will certainly be very helpful.
Tae Kim has some nasty kanji compounds early on where RTK is useful! Smile

On a second look, I can see why Tae Kim is recommended so often after finishing RTK. The guide is kanji heavy from the get go e.g. in lesson 2: 誰が学生? and t 今日は雨だ。昨日__雨だった。

http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/gra...iclesintro
Reply
May 16 - 30 : Pretty Big Deal: Save 31% on all Premium Subscriptions! - Sign up here
JapanesePod101
#29
Those are really common words, especially at the beginner level (I'm pretty sure even Genki uses them) Finishing all of RTK just so you can start Tae Kim is waaay too much effort, IMO. I'd argue it's better just to do the first few hundred words from Core. Or even just look up the ones you don't know (he gives a list at the beginning of all the new words).
Edited: 2014-08-07, 6:59 am
Reply
#30
You can just mouse over the words, even without Rikaichan. Or look at the word list. It's perfectly possible to study grammar with zero knowledge of vocabulary or kanji.
Edited: 2014-08-07, 7:08 am
Reply
#31
It seems like you are misunderstanding my point (the two posters above me). I'm not saying you must complete RTK to do grammar or start with Tae Kim (that claim would be ridiculous), all I'm saying is that if you already decided to do RTK as part of your studies, it would benefit you more to do it as early as possible. Tae kim will definitely be easier to do if you have already completed RTK, so if you plan to do RTK anyway, it makes sense to complete that before you start with Tae Kim.
Reply
#32
Sure, if you plan to do RTK in a month or something. But most people seem unwilling to (commit to) put in the effort to finish RTK in a reasonable amount of time; they might be willing to spend time on other things that they *wouldn't* spend on RTK anyway.

I did RTK1 in a month. While also reading a visual novel. I did RTK because deciphering non-spoonfed Japanese grammar was mindnumbingly hard and I needed something easy to do on the side.
Edited: 2014-08-07, 2:02 pm
Reply
#33
This is a bit rambly, but I am at work. I'll fix it later this evening:

The point I was making is that Genki and other resources will use such vocabulary, but from the get go they will introduced as Kana. Genki avoids Kanji for the first few chapters, then slowly adds a few basic Kanji. This lets the learner can focus on the essential grammar, particles, and kana. Tae Kim takes the alternative approach of using common Kanji from the first chapter/topic. With this approach finishing RTK will be more useful and you'll learn some readings.

For example, In Genki's early chapters (chapter 2/3?) you get taught how to use as a possessive marker with sentences such as:
わたしはアリゾナのだいがくのがくせいです。

I believe you have to wait for a few more chapters before the Kanji start rolling in.

Whilst Tae Kim introduces Kanji within the first grammar point (人だ。) and the kanji for School/Student. Which is handy for those studying using RTK, but makes the guide somewhat less accessible for those who didn't.

Another point is, the words are common and the Kanji will be used; however, if you intend on tackling N4 or N5 then you need examples without the Kanji. e.g. 昨日 will be きのう at N5. I imagine N3 will be similar, but to a lesser degree. A similar point can be made regarding the Core decks, unless you utilise multiple cards for each word.

Quote:I'll tell you that I just took a practice N4 exam and was surprised at how much vocabulary and grammer I just didn't know. And the vocabulary is largely written in kana, so you don't need much kanji for that.
One thing that helped me when I did N5 was to use an RTK deck in production (for only the relevant Kanji). This made the 'which is the correct Kanji for X?' section the easiest section in the exam. I had the same issues as you with the reading passages and would suggest either:

* Reading plenty of N4/N5 materials to get used to it. (Choko library, past papers, and graded readers.)
* If you still struggle, rush through the N4/N5 vocab decks on Ankiweb. You should know the majority of the words from Core; suspend or delete non-kana words from the deck.

The main concern for those two tests should be the listening section. Even if you're above the expected level, bad acoustics or speakers can make it very hard.
Reply
#34
jeffberhow Wrote:I started using a step size of 0.08 0.16 0.32 0.64 5, recommended by vosmiura for vocab, when my retention started dipping and it's helped bring it back up and it's at 73% for Learning and 90% for Young.
vosmiura Wrote:@jeffberhow, good to know. I haven't tried it for kanji.

I used 0.08 as a first interval because that was about how long it too me to do a review. If I was doing it for kanji, they take longer to review so I might have done 0.16 0.32 0.64 1.28 5 for example. Totally untested though if it would improve results or not :-D.
Can one of you guys explain what these numbers mean? I just started dramatically increasing the number of new cards a day and and worried about getting overwhelmed with reviews each day. The only way I know how to handle this is to reduce the number of reviews each day. But it sounds like by changing the various options in anki I can also cause right answers to increase the intervals more. But I just don't understand those menus or what these numbers mean.

Thanks.
Reply
#35
Those are learning intervals (in minutes). So 0.08 0.16 0.32 0.64 5 means that you will see each new card 6 times. After the first test, you will see the cards again in 4.8sec, 9.6sec...and so on up to 5 minutes. To change yours, just open your deck options and put in whatever numbers work for you.
Reply
#36
im amazed how quickly youve gone through your RTK 1 Big Grin
Im very slow as it seems. Im doing about 20 kanjis a day, although im not doing new ones when im repeating blocks of kanji. Im doing about 500 kanji in one such "block" and then repeat it. Im also having breaks from learning kanji for studying japanese grammar and vocabulary. I cant get enough time to do both simultaneously. That said, Ive started about 10months ago and im just at my 1500 kanji line Big Grin
Still, the method works great. I wonder how long im gonna have to repeat the whole kanjis once ive finished to remember at least 80% of em. Because right now im noticing that some of the rarer kanjis get lost and have to be refreshed again.
Reply
#37
Old thread, but still a valid question.
I'm about half-way through and I should finish in another 3 weeks or so. I'm unusual since I have some Japanese (from 20 years ago, mostly forgotten) and right now I have nothing else to do (no job, school) so I'm spending whatever's left from 24/7 after subtracting sleep, food and other things that distract from study.
I wanted to make a couple of main points with this post:

1. Continue with flashcard revision

I reckon that you should continue with the flashcards for at least 1 month after completing the book before you can say that you actually remember everything you've learned. It would probably be good to continue for longer, even if it is at less regular intervals (say weekly after that for a couple of months, then monthly after that)

2. Memory "Pathways"

People talk about going kanji -> keyword instead of keyword -> kanji (what Heisig advises). I think that can work, but you have to be careful. For one thing, Heisig's keywords can be kind of arbitrary, so the temptation will be to forget the keywords after a period of using the kanji -> keyword method.

The way I see it, the brain will try to make it easier for itself to file everything away. If, while you're doing the keyword -> kanji study that Heisig recommends, you start doing other stuff like keyword -> kanji or learning kanji meanings (in compounds or individually), your brain will start to decide to dump the very thing that Heisig's method is there to teach you to remember (namely keyword -> kanji mappings). It's like if you see 勉強, your brain is going to just go "べんきょう: study" and short-circuit any activations of the part of memory that involved looking up "exertion" and "strong". After time, these memory circuits will atrophy for lack of use and at least some of the effort you've spent on RTK will end up being wasted.

So even though I haven't finished the book, I recommend making sure that when you transition to learning kanji in practice (whether it's kanji -> keyword or kanji in context in vocabulary) that you "complete the circuit", ie, do at least as much revision of the keyword -> kanji memories as you're doing for the other new stuff.

Once you have keyword -> kanji memories really solid, you can always modify them. Keywords can be arbitrary, but at least you can post mental post-it notes on them to give you pointers about how they actually are used, compounds they're used in or whatever. The great value of English keywords is that you can build up a web of associations (stories, etc.) even if you can speak very little Japanese.

3. Transitioning to Japanese (translating the system)

The main question, then, about the utility of Heisig's keyword -> kanji system is what happens after you get better at Japanese. Do you just let those memory pathways atrophy (treating them like a temporary crutch that you throw away once you're fit again) or do you try to incorporate them into your new Japanese way of thinking? I think that the latter is better.

Those keywords that Heisig chose will become increasingly irrelevant, but I think that there's no harm in remembering them. A lot of them will end up forming memories like "Oh yeah, Heisig called this X, but it's really more like A or B or ...", but at least that's a kernel that you can form other memories around and (as it's effectively a handy index you carry around with you), it gives you an easy way to trigger recall of the relevant memories.

Later on, you'll overlay more properly Japanese interpretations on your initial stories. You'll have to overcome the homophones, so you can't just translate the keywords directly. For example, say you've got rain and sweets (#2817), but they've both got the same sound (あめ), you need to index them differently, so rain -> rain, like weather -> 天気の雨 and sweets -> sweets, like food -> 食べ物の編め. Eventually, you want to be able to build up two different kind of indexes (one purely in English, with unique keywords, the other in Japanese with some sort of disambiguation built in), both interlinked. You'll probably also want to start translating your stories to Japanese. If you keep the original English keywords, this should become much easier.

If you look at the way Japanese people themselves handle the memory problem with kanji, you'll see that they take a similar approach, except that it will be more based on vocabulary. By that, I mean that if they can't remember the kanji to use in a particular compound, they'll ask someone "is that the X that's in XY or XZ, or what?" When you don't have that sort of vocabulary to use as a reference point, then the next best thing is to use your knowledge of kanji and how they inter-relate (yeah, it's made up of this bit of that, and has a similar meaning to the other---yeah, that's it).

4. Why?

The most basic reason for going through all this is that there's a fundamental literacy gap that we, as foreigners, face when learning Japanese. Without kanji, so much is cut off from us. It may seem a bit pointless having to learn them all (or at least all the Jouyou set), but I think that can be seen as a positive: it's just one pointless thing to get out of the way and then we can start having fun learning to speak and read and write just like a normal person...
Reply
#38
Oops. Kanji for "hard candy/toffee" is:

No め at the end.
Reply
#39
(2016-06-19, 9:30 pm)declan Wrote: Old thread, but still a valid question.
I'm about half-way through and I should finish in another 3 weeks or so. I'm unusual since I have some Japanese (from 20 years ago, mostly forgotten) and right now I have nothing else to do (no job, school) so I'm spending whatever's left from 24/7 after subtracting sleep, food and other things that distract from study.
I wanted to make a couple of main points with this post:
Nice. That should work out well for you. One of the big problems with replicating Heisig's results is that most people can't dedicate 4-6 weeks purely to kanji study, real life tends to interfere. Doing RTK an hour a day is obviously not the same as doing it 8+ hours a day.

Quote:1. Continue with flashcard revision

I reckon that you should continue with the flashcards for at least 1 month after completing the book before you can say that you actually remember everything you've learned. It would probably be good to continue for longer, even if it is at less regular intervals (say weekly after that for a couple of months, then monthly after that)
Certainly. Continued reviews are important. For people going the slow road (1-2 hours a day) constant review during learning is important too, but for people like you who are lucky enough to be able to do RTK full time, there's merit to prioritizing new characters over reviews. (You get a lot of effective reviews from embedded elements and characters anyway without doing formal reviews).

Quote:2. Memory "Pathways"

People talk about going kanji -> keyword instead of keyword -> kanji (what Heisig advises). I think that can work, but you have to be careful. For one thing, Heisig's keywords can be kind of arbitrary, so the temptation will be to forget the keywords after a period of using the kanji -> keyword method.

The way I see it, the brain will try to make it easier for itself to file everything away. If, while you're doing the keyword -> kanji study that Heisig recommends, you start doing other stuff like keyword -> kanji or learning kanji meanings (in compounds or individually), your brain will start to decide to dump the very thing that Heisig's method is there to teach you to remember (namely keyword -> kanji mappings). It's like if you see 勉強, your brain is going to just go "べんきょう: study" and short-circuit any activations of the part of memory that involved looking up "exertion" and "strong". After time, these memory circuits will atrophy for lack of use and at least some of the effort you've spent on RTK will end up being wasted.

So even though I haven't finished the book, I recommend making sure that when you transition to learning kanji in practice (whether it's kanji -> keyword or kanji in context in vocabulary) that you "complete the circuit", ie, do at least as much revision of the keyword -> kanji memories as you're doing for the other new stuff.

Once you have keyword -> kanji memories really solid, you can always modify them. Keywords can be arbitrary, but at least you can post mental post-it notes on them to give you pointers about how they actually are used, compounds they're used in or whatever. The great value of English keywords is that you can build up a web of associations (stories, etc.) even if you can speak very little Japanese.
I don't really agree with this. It is important to maintain your memory of keywords and keep up your reviews in early learning, but as you build up real vocabulary that uses the characters, there's no need. You can transition your understanding of the character to the actual Japanese words that it is used to spell. If you're not regularly handwriting but want to maintain the ability to write, it may be worth formally transitioning your deck to Japanese keywords.
Kanji->Keyword study is really a whole different thing, I think. Since it's pure recognition, there's no point in worrying about keywords at all with that method once you've got a few Japanese words learned for the character. As long as you keep reading in Japanese you won't lose your ability to recognize the character and you don't have the ability to write it anyway.

Quote:3. Transitioning to Japanese (translating the system)

The main question, then, about the utility of Heisig's keyword -> kanji system is what happens after you get better at Japanese. Do you just let those memory pathways atrophy (treating them like a temporary crutch that you throw away once you're fit again) or do you try to incorporate them into your new Japanese way of thinking? I think that the latter is better.
Maybe. I'm personally transitioning my deck (verrry slowly) from English keywords to Japanese keywords. As far as reading is concerned, it's really not that important to maintain a 'Japanified' version of Heisig in your memory... that's why I keep slowing down. I'm mostly reading, and when I write, it's mostly by typing into an IME. Handwriting characters is almost entirely for looking things up by handwriting recognition, for which being generally right about stroke order of the character you're looking at is enough. Maintaining what you learned is much more important if you want to be able to handwrite. I do want to be able to handwrite (even though I do so only rarely) which is really the primary reason for my keeping at my En->Jp transition of my deck. Atrophied characters do sometimes cause me trouble when I start mixing up characters that I never would have mistaken for each other when RTK was fresh in my mind, but that can be corrected with repetition or quick and dirty mnemnoics.

Also of course, some amount of incorporation is inevitable anyway. The real question isn't 'do you incorporate them into your new Japanese way of thinking?' ... you -will- do that, it's inevitable. You can't just not think about the character and the associations you already have with it when learning words spelled with the character. The question is, 'do you proactively incorporate -almost all the details- into your new Japanese way of thinking?' and that's a much iffier question. I will say I think it becomes -much- harder to recover writing if you don't keep (if in changed forms) almost all of the details, but recognition really doesn't fall away as long as you keep reading material including the character. (Because of my slow approach, I have characters in both camps to compare in my own experience.)


In any case, good luck on your high-speed completion of RTK!
Reply
#40
Way back when in 2008, I finished RTK on RevTK in about 4 months with another milestone a month or so later where 80% of the deck was in the last column (1 month or more spacing). It was this excessive time dedication for self study (about 1-2 hours per day) that made me suggest the RTK Lite and later advocating using 2001.Kanji.Odyssey in RTK order.

Now in the Suggested Guide to Japanese Literacy group of courses I've been posting on Memrise, the RTK+2k1KO is pushed big time so people can get into grammar, vocabulary and most importantly the Japanese Drama Immersion which is where the real learning will take place eventually.

Don't get me wrong, kanji via RTK is very important and super useful. However, unless one is learning Japanese full time at a language institute or equivalent, it's better to have a divide and conquer approach that gets people into actual Japanese sooner than later.
Reply