Arupan Wrote:→ Do you sometimes mistake words when you write them down in your own native language?
→ How often?
→ Why can't words in your native language and in Japanese be compared?
→ What if I were to say writing in your native language is useless?
→ What does "learning Japanese well" mean anyway?
→ How well?
→ Do you think you know Japanese well?
→ Do you think you know it well enough in order to claim that writing is useless?
→ Are there people who are better than you in Japanese?
→ If there are, can those people write kanji?
→ Do you honestly think natives can't write kanji?
→ Do you honestly think natives can't ace JLPT N1?
→ Do you know any Chinese learners?
→ If you do, can they write kanji?
→ Do you think Chinese can't write kanji as well?
→ Do you think Japanese are dumber than Chinese cause they are the only ones who complain they can't write kanji?
→ What about the Taiwanese?
→ Do you actually suggest that most Japanese are retards?
I know you really don't care if I answer, but I want to answer anyway.
- Unclear question; do I make mistakes in writing words, lack the ability to spell some words, or is this some other form of 'mistake' you're referring to? If it's either of the first two, the answer is: Yes, because I mainly use a keyboard in a program that has spell-check (occasionally I have to use a dictionary because the spell-check's lacks a word I'm using). Even in college English classes, I'd occasionally have points removed for spelling errors (infrequently, compared to my peers).
- Infrequently, unless I'm writing on a topic I'm unfamiliar with
- Once again, 'compared' in what way? If it has to do with writing, that'd be because my native language is uses a phonetic (lol) writing system, while Japanese uses a hybrid of phonetics and ideographs; the conclusion being that, in English, if I jot a new (or known) word down and it's incorrectly spelled, it'll simply be viewed as a spelling error, while in Japanese, if I don't know a word, it's far easier to just jot it down in hiragana than to try and guess which kanji it uses, which may look childish (like I care). Either way, I've got the word, the only problem is that printing in English is no longer considered childish in the US, while writing down notes (probably containing mostly common words) in all kana could be considered so.
- Handwriting is nearly useless. Tell me the last time you saw a need to use proper handwriting as opposed to printing. If you say "what's the difference?" then you answered your own question with a huge "YES!". For the record, I only use cursive (proper English writing) when signing; my regular handwriting is an atrocious form of print designed for writing quickly and (somewhat) clearly, with no regard for beauty.
- There have been several threads on this, all of which decided that the word 'fluent' has no exact meaning, can't be accurately measured, and so is completely useless in proper discussion of the topic of learning Japanese (not that you used the word, but that's what this question suggests it wants an answer for). As for 'learning Japanese', that would be easily rewritten as 'gaining useful experience in the official language of the nation of Japan'. There's no underlying meaning in any of those words that suggests that learning to write is required for you to 'learn'.
- 'Well': 'good'; descriptor; requires subjective experience..
With that said, what is 'How well' supposed to refer to? How well do you study well? Better than I used to when nothing had context, but that won't answer your question.
- Better than I did before I started. I can do the things I studied for (recognizing vocabulary; understanding grammar patterns; improving the former two) with some level of proficiency. I also fail to understand what this has to do with the topic at hand.
- I know my own language and have enough experience learning Japanese (four years or so) to confidently say that there is a comparatively small amount of benefit to be gained by studying writing early on (especially just individual characters), than learning new vocabulary and grammar, or practicing listening or reading (whichever is more in-line with the individuals goal). I've yet to say it's completely useless, however, and neither has anyone else.
- Of course. There's always someone better, and at this point, there are a lot of 'someone's.
- Whether one can produce written words in kanji or not is irrelevant. Any correlation would have more to do with how much time they spent learning than how 'easily' or 'well' they learned it.
- No, but I've seen multiple sources showing that natives are getting worse at producing handwritten kanji; just as native English speakers are getting worse at handwriting. Does that mean they can't write kanji? No. Does that have anything to do with a foreigner learning Japanese? No.
- No, JLPT has nothing to do with a native's Japanese ability; it's a goal for learners to reach that does little more than give you a paper saying you passed it. It's only useful if you need that paper or like tests (I like tests, so I want to pass JLPT1). And once again, this has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.
- No. Still irrelevant.
- N/A. Still irrelevant.
- I have no clue, because I'm not learning a Chinese language and have almost no knowledge of modern Chinese or Taiwanese culture.
-? My own, similar question: are Koreans dumber than the Chinese or Japanese since they switched to primarily using the Hangul? Korean traditionally used Chinese characters, so clearly it's should be completely impossible for anyone to learn Korean without learning all the Chinese characters ever and then writing everything in them.
- Don't care. Irrelevant. Stupid question.
- Don't care. Irrelevant. Stupid question.
- 'Retards' suggests that they are mentally incapable of learning to write all the kanji in common use (not the actual list, but what you will see often enough if you live there your whole life). No, they aren't retarded, they're human; learning/retaining useless details isn't something we generally do, as a rule. If they practiced enough, they'd (theoretically) be able to correctly write every character ever used in a published Japanese work; very few people are passionate/insane enough to do so.
-? Are native English speakers 'retarded' to the point that they can't write properly or are they just too lazy to do something with almost no payoff for them?
You seem to have failed to understand the argument. No one is saying that learning to write is completely useless or that one's learning can't benefit from doing so (if one likes to learn that way). The argument is that the time spent to perfect writing technique, written word production, and general composition (years) isn't worth it for the majority of learners who (probably) don't care about being able to write by hand more than they care to improve their aural comprehension or reading comprehension.
Also, personally, I prefer the small amount of eye-strain I get from studying on the computer than the eye-strain and hand-cramps that I get when writing for too long.
EDIT: Is there no way I can achieve the affects of the spoiler tag?
