I have questions. Whiny ones.

- I'm doing the sentence method right now. As I'm a beginner to it, and Kanji pronunciations, I almost always get the readings of the compounds wrong when it comes to reviewing, so have to fail myself. And this happens for every one I do... so, is that ok? I mean, I'm learning these words over time. But should I definitely 'fail' myself for not getting the sentence 100% correct?

- I don't really understand the rule 'a grammatically accurate Japanese sentence must end with a verb', because 'Hai.' is technically a sentence, and that sure don't have a verb. And I also saw a larger sentence with a noun at the end of it.

- Related to the last one somewhat, what if I read about a new grammar rule and STILL don't really understand it? I still don't understand the difference between the particles 'は' and 'が', 'この' and 'これ'. I know these are really basic but I have a lot of trouble grasping the more abstract rules.

- Last is the most impatient and whiniest: I've finished RTK1, know kana, have a basic understanding of grammar and have started the sentence method. How long do you think it'll be until I can start enjoying some text heavy Japanese video games (namely Dragon Quest VI)?

Thanks for bearing with me.

They might be a bit whiny but they're good questions.

Virtua_Leaf Wrote:- I'm doing the sentence method right now. As I'm a beginner to it, and Kanji pronunciations, I almost always get the readings of the compounds wrong when it comes to reviewing, so have to fail myself. And this happens for every one I do... so, is that ok? I mean, I'm learning these words over time. But should I definitely 'fail' myself for not getting the sentence 100% correct?

I've never done this sentence method but a suggestion is to choose shorter sentences or ones where there are fewer new words.

Quote:- I don't really understand the rule 'a grammatically accurate Japanese sentence must end with a verb', because 'Hai.' is technically a sentence, and that sure don't have a verb. And I also saw a larger sentence with a noun at the end of it.

I'd never heard of this rule. I'm thinking now about whether it's accurate or not. I'd forget about it because I can't see what you gain by knowing it even if it is true.

Quote:- Related to the last one somewhat, what if I read about a new grammar rule and STILL don't really understand it? I still don't understand the difference between the particles 'は' and 'が', 'この' and 'これ'. I know these are really basic but I have a lot of trouble grasping the more abstract rules.

You learn about grammar structures via two methods: 1. reading about them (as you have) and 2. encountering them. Number 2 is by far the most important and if you see enough examples, it becomes clearer. You may be comforted, or appalled, to know that I still sometimes wonder whether は or が is more appropriate after several years of study. The difference between この and これ is quite simple though. これ is valid by itself and must be by itself, whereas この must precede a noun.

これは大きいです。 This is big.
この車は大きいです。 This car is big.

Of course, the best thing you can do with confusing grammar is post on this forum! Then we can all discuss it and learn about it.

Quote:- Last is the most impatient and whiniest: I've finished RTK1, know kana, have a basic understanding of grammar and have started the sentence method. How long do you think it'll be until I can start enjoying some text heavy Japanese video games (namely Dragon Quest VI)?

The most important no? In short, quite a while. What will really help accelerate the process is heavy exposure to situations where you MUST speak in Japanese. If you're in the UK then that ain't gonna happen too often. So when it happens will depend on your learning environment but it took me about 3 years from zero knowledge.

I dunno... I'm in the same boat... I'm currently using these children's kanji drilling books for my sentences, which use short simple sentences to drill the kanji. ex:

from sentences like :

空に月が出た

and

月が川に映る(うつ)

or

小さい犬に日があたる

You can see that the earth's sun and moon always get が and never は, b/c it's The Sun, The Moon; が is used when you're talking about something specific that's known to both parties. (don't quote me .. there may be exceptions I don't know about)

Using a high volume of these short sentences seems to be giving me more of an idea of what to use and where to use it. Also, the short sentences are easyer for me to process and remember. About 10% of my sentences are taken from Manga but it takes me 3 times longer to remember these and I still don't have a total comprehension of the sentences. The sentences I transcribe from Video seem to be the easyest for me to remember. For now I'm just trying to move up the ladder. Hope this helps.

virtua_leaf Wrote:How long do you think it'll be until I can start enjoying some text heavy Japanese video games

??my guess ...10,000 sentences later ...?

Don't get too hung up on grammar rules. There have been large chapters written on when to use は and が, and there's still room for debate even amongst native speakers. Let your sentences slowly instruct you over time.

The thing about verbs is mostly true. "はい。" is technically a sentence, but the kinds of sentences they're talking about are complete thoughts expressed 'properly.' I had many English teachers tell me that a Proper English Sentence must consist of at least a noun and a verb. "Whatever" isn't a Proper English Sentence, even if I think it expresses my complete thought. There is a difference between Grammar World and Your World.

If you're going to express a complete thought, you will stick the verb at the end about 85 times out of 100. Particles like ～ね、～よ, etc. are sometimes stuck on the very end of the sentence after the verb, but they serve a tonal function. (Sort of like giving a sentence a tone. Sometimes it's a questioning tone, sometimes it's a "did you know this?" sort of tone, sometimes it's a "yeah, i totally get what you're saying" tone, and sometimes it's a "don't screw around with me" tone. You'll get into that later.)

For now, you just need to wrap your head around the idea that verbs usually come at the end of the sentence. Get used to that concept. Don't stress about it too much, just accept it. Really, you should approach most grammar rules that way. Just sort of nod and move on, with the understanding that there are probably 1000 exceptions floating out there, but if you tried to learn them all at once, you'd lose the point of the rule in the first place.

And if you're doing sentences, you shouldn't get too worked up about grammar *rules* at all. You need to keep up with what is grammatically correct, and you need to use grammar books sometimes to mine for sentences, but don't stress too much on trying to remember the rules.

You should find simple sentences with good English translations (at first) to get a general feel for the language. Just keep plugging away at it, and let your brain do its stuff in the background. It will slowly start processing all of this new material, and one day you'll just sort of go, "Oh, that's not so hard anymore. I get that completely now."

Adding vocab is tricky. At first, you should try to limit the amount you drag into new sentences until you're comfortable with basic grammar, then slowly add as needed. If you're failing a lot of sentences, you're probably trying to learn too much at once. Break it all down into digestible chunks.

And yeah, if you want to play Dragon Quest in JP, you're in for a long haul. It all depends on how hard you go at it. Immersion does work wonders, even if it's just reading manga (easy ones at first) in Japanese. The whole idea is to constantly push the edges of what you know and don't know.

Quick reply regarding grammar:

1st, your comment about grammar rules.

I urge you to quickly drop the idea that there are grammar "rules" in a language. Instead, get into your head that there is only one grammar rule: a sentence is correct IF a native speaker accepts the sentence (ie, isn't utterly confused by it and can see how it makes sense). If I say, "I want you to shizzle my nizzle", that is not grammatical per se, but many people these days would respond to that in some manner, not just stare blankly at me. After you grasp the idea of natives accepting sentences, keep in mind there are different forms that are acceptable at certain times. My above sentence is not acceptable in an essay, but it is joking with friends. Japanese is not an exception and will have similar things.

2nd: About not being to tell differences.

Especially for particles, don't really try to drill into your head each and every function. Intake a lot of Japanese while subtlety understanding the function a particle plays in each particular sentence you are examining. After you get a lot of input, you'll be able to understand more of the subtle differences, and reading about rules again can help (it's like surfacing knowledge that you already know). Just so you know, "ha" and "ga" will take a long time to get a very good grasp on differences and when to use them and when not to. It just takes a lot of input and your mind subconsciously putting it together.

It's ok if you can understand the particle in the input, but have a hard time deciding what to use for output. After a lot of input, using the wrong particle in output will feel awkward to you.

Virtua_Leaf Wrote:I have questions. Whiny ones.

- I'm doing the sentence method right now. As I'm a beginner to it, and Kanji pronunciations, I almost always get the readings of the compounds wrong when it comes to reviewing, so have to fail myself. And this happens for every one I do... so, is that ok? I mean, I'm learning these words over time. But should I definitely 'fail' myself for not getting the sentence 100% correct?

I'm doing sentences too; it works great once you get into it. You should 'fail' yourself if you misread any word. If you misread but then correct yourself before finishing the whole sentence, then its a 'pass'.

It's normal to fail new stuff several times, but usually within a week or two it should be in your system. Having multiple sentences that use each word can help learn them quicker. Also the more words you know, the easier it will get to learn new ones.

Quote:- I don't really understand the rule 'a grammatically accurate Japanese sentence must end with a verb', because 'Hai.' is technically a sentence, and that sure don't have a verb. And I also saw a larger sentence with a noun at the end of it.

Sentences without verbs or copulas at the end can appear in casual speech. It doesn't mean its not valid Japanese, but its just not fully proper, so its impolite if you use it in the wrong situations. "はい" is an interjection, and is polite by itself.

Quote:- Related to the last one somewhat, what if I read about a new grammar rule and STILL don't really understand it? I still don't understand the difference between the particles 'は' and 'が', 'この' and 'これ'. I know these are really basic but I have a lot of trouble grasping the more abstract rules.

It may help you to get a grammar dictionary (I'd recommend "A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar"). Look up any particles you don't understand, then read the explanation, and add some of the example sentences to your SRS.

I used to learn mainly from textbooks before, and even though I studied lots of grammar points and did the textbook exercises, I was still so unsure about a lot of things. They faded away over time. Since I started doing sentences so much more of the grammar has become clear to me, in such a short time. I'm starting to agree with Khatzumoto that textbooks are a slow way to learn (even the best ones).

Quote:- Last is the most impatient and whiniest: I've finished RTK1, know kana, have a basic understanding of grammar and have started the sentence method. How long do you think it'll be until I can start enjoying some text heavy Japanese video games (namely Dragon Quest VI)?

Haha. I wish I knew, but I can't yet play DQ6 either. My guess is a good long while. One day you will. I'd focus on some interrim goals like reading a short story first.

In terms of learning grammar, the best I have I can give is "read those grammar books, but DON'T BELIEVE ANY OF THE GRAMMAR RULES UNTIL YOU'VE CONVINCED YOURSELF that it makes sense". If you ever ask native Japanese people about grammar, they'll either say

a) "I don't know"
b) "I don't think that's necessarily true"

The truth is that grammar is not always so black and white. IMHO, the best way is to watch Japanese TV shows(or listen to songs and conversations) and test out the grammar "rules" that you've read.

Try to make note of the context and environment that the conversation take place.

For example,

a)are the people close friends or not?
b)does one person have much higher status than the other?
c)what emotional state are the characters in?
d)what other grammar could they have used? Would it have the same meaning?
e)what would YOU have said in the same situation? (and then actually say the full
sentence to yourself)

After a while, you'll notice certain patterns and get the hang of it. Sometimes you'll even understand how to use certain grammar very well, but don't really have a good explanation. That's when you'll know you're turning Japanese.... :-)

In response to the 「はい。」 question:
You sometimes hear nouns or noun phrases on their own as well as this. The reason being is that there is a verb /implied/ and understood in context. For example, if someone asks, "Are you rich?" You could respond, "Yes, I am rich." However, you can also answer "Yes." Another example is if someone asks you, "What is that?" You could answer, "That is a pineapple." or "A pineapple."

In response to the 「この」 and 「これ」 confusion:
「この」 is simply a contracted form of 「これの」 therefore it comes before a noun or noun phrase. If you know how the 「の」 particle works, it should be easy to keep track of this as well as the others like it.

In response to the 「は」 and 「が」 confusion:
It's sort of complicated. Usually, 「は」 draws emphasis on what is after and 「が」 draws emphasis on what is before. Things followed by 「は」 often get omitted in later conversation because it becomes understood. 「あなたの名前は何ですか?」　「(私の名前は)愛です。」 It is also used for contrast. 「ビールはいいです。ジュースはよくないです。」　Contrast doesn't just occur when there are two sentences. In the earlier case, if you were to use 「私の名前は愛です。」, it would be in contrast with the other person's name. It is also used for suggestion or bringing up a new topic. 「肉は?」 「が」 is usually used to isolate something from all else. In many cases, it's almost like answering a question. 「誰が言ったの?」 「私が言った!」　It's hard for me to explain all the differences, but I hoped this helped.

To echo: Grammar "rules" come after use, not before. Calling them "tendencies" is more honest, I think.

Virtua_Leaf Wrote:How long do you think it'll be until I can start enjoying some text heavy Japanese video games (namely Dragon Quest VI)?

I haven't tried dragon quest yet but I have tried zelda on the DS and I have been loving it and I highly recommend it. I just passed the JLPT 4 (barely) so I only feel like I understand about 60% of what is going on. But it is a great challenge and I have surprised myself at how much I do catch. I only play it for enjoyment (ie no sentence mining) and I try to use it as a bit of a reward--for example, somedays I only play after reviewing 100 cards.
So I guess what I am saying is start enjoying something now. Maybe just go for it with a game or find something else you can enjoy. Maybe dragon quest is too "text heavy" but there may another game that you would enjoy...?

stehr Wrote:I dunno... I'm in the same boat... I'm currently using these children's kanji drilling books for my sentences, which use short simple sentences to drill the kanji. ex:

from sentences like :

空に月が出た

and

月が川に映る(うつ)

or

小さい犬に日があたる

You can see that the earth's sun and moon always get が and never は, b/c it's The Sun, The Moon; が is used when you're talking about something specific that's known to both parties. (don't quote me .. there may be exceptions I don't know about)

Sorry, I don't think that this is correct. I think you've just given an explanation of when to use the English definite particle ('the') rather than the indefinite particle ('a'). i.e. the word "the" is used when talking about something known to both parties. I think the reason for why which particle is used is best described in Smackle's post.

EDIT: it's the definite and indefinite article, not particle. Sorry!

OMG, thank you all so much. Each post was just... damn, why are you guys so helpful?

I should just keep going as I am, keep going with the flow, and then eventually stuff will start clicking by themselves. Ok. And some annoying grammar has been explained too. THANKS!

While we are whining, I have a sentence that I am having a hard time translating, and I am about to throw a temper tantrum.

Ok, I understand the first part:
中国製冷凍ギョーザを食べた兵庫県高砂市の親子３人が中毒になった事件で、警察は３日、同じ製造日昨年１０月１日の同じ種類の製品を検査した結果を発表しました

But when it starts to talk about "the same production day," "last year's same type product".... Huh?

Can anyone help me on this? Thank you!

It's not easy for me, but I think its something like.

"Following the incident of a family of 3 from Takasago city of Hyogo prefecture becoming poisoned from eating frozen Chinese gyoza, on the 3rd police released results of inspections performed on the same variety of product from the same production day Oct 1st last year."

Ahhh, I see. I was confused about what "the same" was referring to, now it makes sense. Also, the 親子３人 was hard to translate, I didn't pick up on the "family of 3" sort of connotation. Thanks, vosmiura

Yeah, it's literally more "3 parent & child" or "parents & children of 3".

wrightak Wrote:Sorry, I don't think that this is correct. I think you've just given an explanation of when to use the English definite particle ('the') rather than the indefinite particle ('a'). i.e. the word "the" is used when talking about something known to both parties. I think the reason for why which particle is used is best described in Smackle's post.

EDIT: it's the definite and indefinite article, not particle. Sorry!

My explination may be wrong here, sorry. But can you please give an example using the sun or the moon with (ha), thanks

Searching google groups for "月は" gives us a post (http://tinyurl.com/33jsjj) which includes a nice example:

Quote:月は地球の引力によって、地球側が反対側より強く引かれます。

(rough translation: "The near side of the moon is attracted more strongly by the earth's gravity than the far side.")

(IANANS, so my opinion only, but The writer is using は here to set up the moon as the topic of conversation; that is to say, it's what we're talking about but it's not the interesting bit. The 'interesting bit' is this fact about the near side of the moon (which you'll see takes a が here).

Anyway, my recommendation is that you get hold of a copy of Jay Rubin's book "Making Sense of Japanese", which includes a section on wa versus ga. It's a very wittily written book which covers some of the traditionally tricky and confusing bits of Japanese grammar. Actually, I'd recommend it to everybody, not just people having wa/ga trouble :-)

stehr Wrote:My explination may be wrong here, sorry. But can you please give an example using the sun or the moon with (ha), thanks

If I was asked to give one off the top of my head, I'd just say

月はきれいですね。

However, after looking in Kenkyusha's online dictionary, whose example sentences are written by Japanese people, there is also this sentence:

月は中天を過ぎて西に傾いていた The moon had passed its zenith and was slipping down the western sky

I think pm215 hit the nail on the head in his/her post. The reason you might find lots of sentences with 月が rather than 月は, is that when you write a sentence about the moon (especially a short sentence), the moon is usually the important part of the sentence and where the emphasis is placed.

Oh boy, I can second that the chapter on wa/ga in "Making Sense of Japanese" is a gem. When I read it I wondered how on earth I could understand any Japanese correctly before reading it. It's enlightening how many different facets wa & ga have.

Quote:You can see that the earth's sun and moon always get が and never は, b/c it's The Sun, The Moon; が is used when you're talking about something specific that's known to both parties. (don't quote me .. there may be exceptions I don't know about)

Actually there is some correspondence between wa/ga and the/a, but I think it is more often the opposite of your example.

Like in English you have to introduce someone with "a" / "ga" before you can use "the" / "wa".

へや　で　おとこ　が　いった。
There was 'a' man in the room.
おとこ　は　たべながら,　おんな　が　へや　に　はいた。
While 'the' man was eating, 'a' woman entered the room.
おんな　は　うつくしい　だった。
　'The' woman was beautiful.

The exceptions are the same as in English, like at the start of a story, if the writer wishes to jump into the middle of events without introductions then its ok.

Some more stuff on wa/ga:

"X wa Y" -> "as for X only, Y" where X singles out what is being discussed, and turns your attention to Y. The emphasis is on what comes after "wa".

So to bring a new topic to the table you use "wa". Apparently this can be quite a selfish little particle, because it introduces one thing at the exclusion of others, "X only". So if you tell your host "Tonight 'wa' dinner was great" it can sound like tonight was great, but that you can't say the same about other times, which your host may not like to hear.

"X ga Y" -> "it is X that is Y" The emphasis is on what comes before "ga".

To the question "who/what/where/when is Y?" you answer with "it is X that is Y" so you use "ga". If you start with "it is X that is Y" without being asked any question, the correct answer is "Ok man. Calm down!"

Another facet is that "ga" is always the "subject" of what follows it, whereas "wa" is multifunction because its first function changes the "topic", and secondly it can also act as an implied "subject/object/time/place/whatever" in what follows it.

There's lots more, but I can't possibly do it the same justice that "Making Sense of Japanese" does to wa & ga.

Thaks for the replies. As I'm not using a proper textbook it can be rather difficult for me to discern certain grammer rules. I liked both Vosmiura and Spackle's posts informative posts (sorry, I'm a painter so I couldn't resist). Thanks wrightak for pointing out my blurb there with provided evidence. I should invest in a dictionary of grammar...

Here's some more fun.

みんなさん, なんの たべもの が すき です か。 Everyone, what kind of food is liked?

が sets the subject to "what kind of food is liked".

わたし は すし です。　As for me, (it) is sushi (that is liked).

Note that it's not: As for me, (I) am sushi. The subject is still "what kind of food is liked".

わたし が すし です。 I am the one that is sushi!

Umm, it doesn't make any sense to the above question.

vosmiura Wrote:おとこ　は　たべながら,　おんな　が　へや　に　はいた。
While 'the' man was eating, 'a' woman entered the room.

Are you sure that's natural Japanese? I have some misgivings about it...

Firstly, can you really use ながら with different people doing the two actions? I'm used to seeing it in things like 音楽を聴きながら宿題をしました where one person is doing two things at once. I don't have my grammar books to hand to check, though. My instinct would be to go for [kana]aida[/kana] or [kana]tokoro[/kana] or [kana]uchi[/kana] instead.

Secondly, given that the 'while the man was eating' part is a subordinate clause, you can't use は -- in subordinate clauses the subject must be marked with が if it is given at all. (In cases like "おとこは音楽を聴きながら宿題をしました" the "おとこは" is not in the subordinate clause, which has an omitted subject.)