This might sound like a silly question but keep reading. One major function of the katakana alphabet is to sound out foreign loan words. So ice cream becomes アイスクリーム. I was browsing Japanese movie posters of foreign (Western) movies and it occurred to me, just how much English do Japanese people know?

Western movies are in English obviously so the new "Planet of the Apes" movie is translated into Japanese as "猿の惑星." Easy enough for Japanese people to understand. Of course it's understandable, it's in Kanji.

Horror movie "The Thing" becomes "遊星からの物体X." The title is a bit different but still easily understandable.

The horror movie "Alien" becomes "エイリアン" instead of "宇宙化け物". Although a loan word, I assume エイリアン is common enough in the language for Japanese audiences to understand means "intergalactic creature of some sort."

"American Psycho" becomes "アメリカン・サイコ" instead of "発狂の米人." Hopefully Japanese people understand the grammar difference between "America" and "American" similar to the difference between "日本" and "日本人."

"The Avengers" becomes "アベンジャーズ." Hopefully Japanese people understand how plurals work in English.

The comedy movie "Dumb and Dumber" becomes "Mr. ダマー." Hopefully Japanese people understand that:
1) Dumber is not his name. Dumber means "more dumb."
2) The English grammar involving the -er intensifier form (dumber is a more intense form of dumb).
3) There are two dumb people, not just one.
4) ダマー originates from the original Western title which is Dumb and Dumber."
5) In reality, Dumb and Dumber refers not to the protagonists's names, but is actually an adjective that describes said protagonists. So one of the two men is dumb, and the other is even more dumb. The fact that the duo are so dumb serves the comedic purpose of the movie and their dumbness warrants the movie title to be named after them.

The question that needs to be asked is when they use katakana to translate a foreign Western movie instead of using Kanji, do the average Japanese person understand completely? With the exception of names (Harry Potter), why not just use Kanji?

Which leads to the next question: does this mean that the average Japanese person have a larger vocabulary bank than people from other countries? They have at least two words for everything (アップル and りんご, ドア and 扉 etc). On the other hand, I as a native English speaker only know one word for apple and door. Furthermore, Japanese people can use ドア to specify Western doors and 扉 to specify Japanese sliding doors. If I want to talk about Japanese doors, I have to say "Japanese" before I say "door."

Go look up a list of popular anime in English. Half of the titles are English and half of them are romaji. Even hardcore anime fans have no idea what the titles mean.

It's an interesting question. I actually read an article pondering this lately from ちょい見せまぐ！(including below as there's no way to link to it) dealing with this issue over the movie FROZEN, which (as you likely know) was released in Japan as アナと雪の女王, instead of as フローズン. This author was talking about how powerful some of America's greatest religious and political speeches are (think "I Have a Dream") compared to the convoluted speech of Japanese politicians. The author seems to think that the translated title is very ディズニーっぽい, and that this, combined with the title's directness, accounts for a great portion of the film's success in Japan. Maybe so. It certainly fits the pattern where Japanese movie titles are more literal descriptions of the subject and the protagonists than American titles. E.g., おおかみの雨と雪 vs. the Americanized "Wolf Children", or 千と千尋の神隠し vs. just simply "Spirited Away".

アベンジャーズ was already a huge hit before it premiered in Japan several months after the American premiere, so it probably behooved them to keep the original name, regardless of whether the general public actually understands what an "Avenger" is.

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文章力を向上させるためには、まずはたくさん本を読みましょう、などとよく言われる。たくさん本を読み、たくさん文書を読んで、その中から優れた表現を学んでいくのが一番というわけです。

 おっしゃるとおり、ごもっとも。

 まったくその通りだとは思いますが、本をたくさん読むためには、それだけ時間が必要ですし、そもそも優れた文章がどのようなものか、文章力が低いうちは、イマイチよく分からないという方も多いでしょう。

 文章というか、コトバはコミュニケーションのための道具ですので、まずは、自分の思いや考えをできるかぎり正確に、上手に伝えられる文章が優れた文章になってくるのかなとは思いますが、小説家が書く小説や、コラムニストが書くコラムと、科学者が書く科学論文やジャーナリストの書くニュースなどでは、優れた文章の定義も根本的に大きく異なりますよね？特に、日本語の文章は、文化的な背景もあってか、自分の考えや意見をあえてできる限りボカス表現や、論理展開が破綻しているような文章ですら、世間的に良い表現と考えられてたりするので、余計にやっかいかもしれません。

 例えば、政治家や官僚や、企業経営者などのちゃんとした大人たちが、平気で、「誠に遺憾に存じます･･･」みたいな表現をよく使っていますが、コミュニケーションのための道具として考えると、何が言いたいのかよく分からない難しい表現をいっぱい使うのは、あまり良くないような気がします。

 アメリカでは、最も優れた演説は子どもでも理解できる言葉で語られたもの･･･なんて言われてまして、キング牧師の“I havea dream”演説とか、その他、数々の大統領演説などでも、素晴らしい演説と言われるものほど、子どもでも分かる内容になっているものが多いです。そういう意味では、日本とは真逆かもしれません。だから、本気で文章力を向上させようと思ったら、英語で書かれた文章を日本語に翻訳したものや、ある程度、英語力のある著者が書いた文章などを読んでみると、結構、いろいろと勉強になるような気がします。コトバの表現はイマイチだったとしても、英語ベースの文章からは、論理展開はかなり学べるでしょう。

 理想的には、コトバの表現も素晴らしい文章だとより良いんですけど、これがなかなかないんですよね。何か良い参考になるものはないかな？と考えてみたんですけど、ありました。今、日本で大ヒット中のディズニー映画『アナと雪の女王』です。なんか目茶目茶ヒットしていて、5月15日付で累計興行収入176.8億円を突破し、「ハリー・ポッターと秘密の部屋」（173億円）や、「踊る大捜査線 THE MOVIE2」（173.5億円）を抜いて日本歴代興収6位になってたそうです。累計動員数は約1,391万人。子ども達にも大人気で、何度も見に行く女の子も多いのだとか。当然、一人じゃいけませんから、一緒にご両親やおじいちゃん、おばあちゃんなども行くことになり、3月14日の公開から2カ月経った今もその勢いは衰えてないそうです。

理想的には、コトバの表現も素晴らしい文章だとより良いんですけど、これがなかなかないんですよね。何か良い参考になるものはないかな？と考えてみたんですけど、ありました。今、日本で大ヒット中のディズニー映画『アナと雪の女王』です。なんか目茶目茶ヒットしていて、5月15日付で累計興行収入176.8億円を突破し、「ハリー・ポッターと秘密の部屋」（173億円）や、「踊る大捜査線 THE MOVIE2」（173.5億円）を抜いて日本歴代興収6位になってたそうです。累計動員数は約1,391万人。子ども達にも大人気で、何度も見に行く女の子も多いのだとか。当然、一人じゃいけませんから、一緒にご両親やおじいちゃん、おばあちゃんなども行くことになり、3月14日の公開から2カ月経った今もその勢いは衰えてないそうです。

その映画『アナと雪の女王』は、日本語訳の表現がかなり良さそうなんですよ。そもそもタイトルの『アナと雪の女王』がすごいと思います。これ英語の原題、何だか覚えてます？このメルマガでは、『アナと雪の女王』が日本で公開する大分前から、アカデミー賞の話題などでなんだかんだ取り上げてたんですけど、英語の原題は、"Frozen"。近年、洋画を日本で公開する際でも、英語の原題をそのままカタカナでタイトルにする作品が増えているんですけど、これをそのまま『フローズン』で公開したら、ここまでヒットすることはなかったかもしれません。

 そこで、『アナと雪の女王』。超ディズニーっぽい（笑）。素晴らしい和訳だと思います。

 『アナと雪の女王』は、すっかり日本で広く知られるようになってまして、最近では、略して『アナ雪』などとまで言われてるようですけど、英語の原題をまったく知らない日本人も、結構たくさんいらっしゃるのではないでしょうか？ひょっとすると、海外のディズニーストアなどで『アナと雪の女王』のグッズがどこにあるか店員さんに聞く際に、『アナと雪の女王』をそのまま英訳して“Anna and Snow Queen”のグッズはどこか？と聞く人も出てくるかも？でも、それで瞬時に、"Frozen"のことだと分かる店員さんはなかなかいないかもしれません。

 また、『アナと雪の女王』はテーマ曲の“Let it go”の日本語版の和訳も素晴らしいです。あれが大ヒットの決定打になったという報道もたくさん出てますよね。“Let it go”の邦題は、もう皆さんご存知だと思いますけど、『ありのままで』。歌詞も良いです。原文に忠実。そのうえで、「このままじゃ　だめなんだと」のような優れた意訳もバッチリ。完璧な和訳です。英語の勉強にもなりますが、その前に文章力の向上にも、ディズニー作品の英語は最適と言えるでしょう。ディズニー作品は子ども向けなので当たり前ですけど、子どもでも理解できるシンプルな言葉で、深い意味のある大きなメッセージやビジョンを伝える表現が満載ですしね。

[Zgarbas]

Japanese people *understand* Japanese really well. They have a really large vocabulary which was drilled in school, and as far as basic grammar go they've all studied it. Using is is nigh impossible for most of them (and even the more fluent ones come up short compared to their asian peers), but when it comes to passive comprehension their level can be pretty damned high. Especially if it's katakana-ized English. Unless I'm using specialized terms, whenever I don't know a word in Japanese 90% I can use the Japanese-pronounced English word and people will get it.

I was quite appalled when I was proofreading games translated into Japanese, and 99% of everything was in English. I had no idea what was going on, and especially with Fantasy games I had to pronounce things out loud, look at the English name and compare them. Highly confusing. Japanese people say that because they're used to it they don't notice it, but さあ.

Re: Frozen, it's worth noting that the working title of the film in English was "Anna and the Snow Queen."

The typical native Japanese person will never know or understand the sheer joy that comes from reading Shakespeare in the original (I read all 38 of his plays non-stop a few years ago as a fun project).

Has anyone on this forum ever seen or read a Japanese translation of a Shakespeare play? No doubt, much was lost in the translation.

john555 Wrote:Has anyone on this forum ever seen or read a Japanese translation of a Shakespeare play? No doubt, much was lost in the translation.

I saw Romeo and Juliet in Tokyo about six years ago, and understood about none of it. If I hadn't been familiar with the story in English, I wouldn't have been able to follow it.

Of course, my Japanese level was a lot lower, but they may also have been using unusual Japanese, much in the way that Shakespeare uses unusual English.

john555 Wrote:The typical native Japanese person will never know or understand the sheer joy that comes from reading Shakespeare in the original (I read all 38 of his plays non-stop a few years ago as a fun project).

Has anyone on this forum ever seen or read a Japanese translation of a Shakespeare play? No doubt, much was lost in the translation.

I've seen 蜘蛛巣城 by 黒澤明 before I got my hands on the Shakespeare's text (which admittedly, was not in English either).

Can't really comment on how much was lost in the translation, but there was definitely an added vaue in the movie.

From my experience, I think they understand quite a lot of katakana words, and in some cases famous movie titles and ad campaigns (ビー・アンビシャス for example) help to further this understanding. Of course, the meaning they understand can end up some way away from the original English, and there are plenty of cases where they don't have a clue.

It can actually be a big advantage for English speakers. If I'm totally lost for a word in conversation, sometimes I try to say it in katakana, and there's a chance it'll be understood. For example, the other day I couldn't remember recruitment, so I just said リクルートメント.

The benefits still don't make me any less appalled multiple times daily by the English/katakana used in advertising, magazines, books, songs etc, or by natives attempting to sound intelligent. That's probably a topic for a different thread though.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:[...]
Which leads to the next question: does this mean that the average Japanese person have a larger vocabulary bank than people from other countries?

I imagine there are a few countries that speak/understand English comparably well to Western countries, and perhaps speak more languages than English and their native language(s). Also, there are always seemingly "normal" Japanese people that go above and beyond the expectations of Japanese education/society -- study English in college, or become translators; etc etc. These guys might aim for mastery in the English language; likewise, many Japanese are of a studious, practical nature and are very eager to learn the language. As Zagarbas indicated in an earlier post, her experience tells her that the average Japanese vocabulary is markedly high. There may be other outliers that don't fit the norm/mean, such as those with English speaking family, or those that have lived in a country where English is the lingua franca (which is admittedly the case in Japan).

john555 Wrote:The typical native Japanese person will never know or understand the sheer joy that comes from reading Shakespeare in the original (I read all 38 of his plays non-stop a few years ago as a fun project).

Has anyone on this forum ever seen or read a Japanese translation of a Shakespeare play? No doubt, much was lost in the translation.

Actually I made a thread about this (the accuracy of Jap-to-Eng translations) though most of it was off-topic because I didn't communicate my agenda-setting first post correctly.

An interesting thing would be how a distinctly American show with old and new American pop culture references like South Park and Family Guy would get translated into Japanese. English has a wide variety of profanity. In contrast, Japanese doesn't, so most of the swearing would be translated to kuso or what little alternatives there are.

How about The Daily Show/Stephen Colbert Report/John Oliver? While these shows deal with American news in a comedic way, Westerners, due to the similarity in culture (the fact that the language is also the same definitely helps), can also mostly get the jokes and laugh along. Can Japanese people get it?

jimeux Wrote:ビー・アンビシャス

Be Unvicious?

I was also to guess the katakana velociraptor word in a different thread but I fail at this one.

Just googled it. Close but no cigar. I know what the English word for アンビシャス is and I still can't figure out the katakana. How the hell can Japanese people know what アンビシャス is without knowing the English!?

It's "ambitious". (Were you thinking of Cowboy Bebop's villain?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_S._Clark
Clark's visage overlooks Sapporo from several statues and his parting words to his Japanese students, "Boys, be ambitious!" have become a nationally known motto in Japan.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Just googled it. Close but no cigar. I know what the English word for アンビシャス is and I still can't figure out the katakana.

ア: any of a variety of vowels (and I guess you native speakers hear the ones that map to アー as entirely unrelated vowels rather than merely longer versions of the same)
ン before a consonant: m/n before said consonant
Therefore, アン->an/un/am/um
ビ: bi or vi (ヴぃ, even if more accurate, is fugly and consequently doesn't get as much use)
シャス: easy, no other sound in the English language is even remotely close

But to be honest, only the ビー made it easy for me.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Just googled it. Close but no cigar. I know what the English word for アンビシャス is and I still can't figure out the katakana. How the hell can Japanese people know what アンビシャス is without knowing the English!?

The whole キャッチコピー is actually「日本人・ビー・アンビシャス」. Try pasting it into Google image search. If you say it out loud and see they keyword in the ad (転職), then it's pretty intuitive. What Odin89 said was interesting though.

We do something similar with lots Japanese-named movies and videogames released in the US. Consider the 1985 movie "Ran" (乱) directed by Akira Kurosawa. The title was kept in Japanese even though I doubt 90%+ of Westerners who see it know what it means. It doesn't even have to be Japanese. Consider the Pixar movie "Ratatouille".

For some reason, lots of Japanese games released in the US keep their Japanese names, especially more obscure ones. For example the "Onimusha" series, "Oni" (Ps2, 2000), the "Shin Megami Tensei" series, "Yaiba: Ninja Gaiden Z" (Ps3, 2014), "Onechanbara" (Xbox 360, 2009), "Hatsume Miku: Project Diva F" (Ps3, 2014) and many others.

As an ordinary person, they seem to do this because many people get curious about things in foreign languages. They're trying to market things as foreign and exotic and stand out from things with names in English. It doesn't matter if people don't understand it -- what matters is that people think "Hmm...what does that word mean?" and they get drawn in, especially if it's from a language deemed "cool", like Japanese. I strongly suspect the Japanese do this with katakana English words for the same reasons.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:An interesting thing would be how a distinctly American show with old and new American pop culture references like South Park and Family Guy would get translated into Japanese. English has a wide variety of profanity. In contrast, Japanese doesn't, so most of the swearing would be translated to kuso or what little alternatives there are.

Well, if you really wonder how it gets translated, you can always have a look for yourself. With some searching skills, even the Japanese dubbed version of South Park is available at your finger's tips!
http://himado.in/10309