Hi everyone, I want to start off by saying this is my first post and I'm so glad to have found this site. I've been teaching myself kanji almost obsessively since January and have gotten through Remembering the Kanji 1, and am really close to getting through all the on-yomi in Remembering the Kanji 2.

Something that hit me when I began RTK 2 was the sheer amount of kanji that go under the same on-yomis. For example well over 20 kanji were pronounced "kou", and the same went for "kan" and "sou". I figured I had to come up with a strategy whenever another "kan", "sou", etc. came up, so I began by using English words as mnemonics. For "sou" I thought of a textile factory full of sowing machines, and "kou" I thought of coconut trees. for "so" I thought of a single sowing machine, while for "ko" I thought of a single coconut. It was hard to think of English words that resembled ones like "ryoku" (power), so for many of those I just repeated them until they stuck.

I eventually gave up on using English words as mnemonics and began using other kanji as mnemonics. For example, whenever "tou" shows up now, I think of "knife" (a "tou" on-yomi) and try to associate the incoming "tou" kanji with a knife. I noticed that it's easier to use kanji that are nouns for this instead of ones for adjectives or verbs. It's hard to use "decide" ("ketsu") because that's more abstract and harder to work with than "blood" ("ketsu").

I'm curious about you guys. What are your strategies?

I just picked them up and recognized the patterns while learning vocab, same as a lot of people on this site I think :/

けつ is easy for those of us blessed with a dirty mind: 尻

When I'm not sure of a reading I generally try to think of another word that uses the same kanji (not always with success). I'm often unsure of whether it's first or second in the other word.

E.g. 研修 came up today. The first one is from けんきゅう (research), very familiar through over-use in the core 6k. But is 研 first or second in けんきゅう?

I started out by thinking I would memorize all the ON readings for the RTK1 kanji ahead of time but soon gave it up and decided to learn readings in tandem with learning vocabulary as I read.

So for instance, I learned that "to run a race" is pronounced "kyoosoo suru" before learning what the kanji for this word are. I impressed the word phonetically on my mind. Then I studied what the kanji are for "kyoosoo", i.e., 競 走. Since I already knew that "run a race" is pronounced "kyoosoo" I now can easily remember that 競 has the reading "kyoo" and that 走 has the reading "soo". Likewise you'll also eventually learn that 走 is the kanji for "hashiru".

In other words, I'm memorizing the phonetics of a vocabulary item first, and then mapping the word to the kanji.

The RTK2 method is clumsy because (at least when I tried to do it) I was trying to memorize the ON readings ahead of time, then memorize what the kanji are for words, then from RTK2 remember how to pronounce the word. That is all backwards.

In fact, isn't there a chapter in RTK2 where Heisig shows the reader kanji compounds for vocabulary items the reader already knows (i.e., phonetically)?

What's your goal in learning on-yomi? I think people could help give you better advice if they knew your purpose, e.g., to read books, to know a lot of kanji, to write in Japanese, to be overall fluent in the language, etc.
And yeah, usually when this question has come up here, as Ash_S said, most folks didn't use RTK2, and just picked up on-yomi as they learned new vocab. It's a bit strange sometimes, however, knowing there is a kanji for what you want to say, but not knowing the word or the reading, so I could see how it'd be useful to study on-yomi systematically to boost up the kanji you know. If you're interested in speaking, I would urge you not to hold off until you know more on-yomi, just dive in and start some language exchanges or what have you.
I'd be interested in your progress going forward, especially because there is a lack of reported experiences with RTK2 on this site, so keep us updated! 頑張って！

Learning all the onyomi separately is a ridiculous thing to do. Massive waste of time.

My phonetic primitive deck took a total of... 3 hours. For the readings of well over 1000 kanji. Hardly massive.

Not taking over three seconds per review is where the real time-savings are at.

I agree that RTK2 is clumsy. It has a great start but it doesn't implement it right.

Instead of RTK2, I use two self-made on-yomi decks. One that makes use of phonetic components, and another one that makes uses of simmilarities between characters. This method is much more effective than learning each ON reading separately. There are still many characters that are not in either deck, as the process of adding new kanji groups is a bit tedious, but I have most common kanji covered. With the decks I was able to learn over 2800 kanji readings with barely any effort. Until I created the decks, I only got headaches and a lot of reviews wrong for misremembering an ON reading.

The Palace method tries to merge all the kanji that share an ON reading into a single group, but I couldn't manage groups that big. I had more luck separating them into smaller groups that are internally consistent. I think the success of my decks over the palace method is that it minimizes the 'amount of facts/rules' to memorize, to put it simply.

The Palace method is worse than RTK2 because unlike that one, it still requires you to memorize +3000 individual facts, and it also takes the wrong approach by chaining characters together through their 'meaning' (totally random and unrelated) instead of their 'visual clues'.

anotherjohn Wrote:E.g. 研修 came up today. The first one is from けんきゅう (research), very familiar through over-use in the core 6k. But is 研 first or second in けんきゅう?

I think you mean けんしゅう. けんきゅう is 研究.

NightSky Wrote:Learning all the onyomi separately is a ridiculous thing to do. Massive waste of time.

I'm not sure what you mean by "separately", but I have ambivalent feelings about this. It's nice to be able to look at a word and guess its pronunciation with a good degree of reliability. It saves time on lookup, IME. It's a lot faster for me to type the hiragana and let the dictionary find the kanji. On the other hand, studying RTK2 wasn't a lot of fun, and the words aren't always all that useful. Maybe the answer is to learn the more common kanji from RTK2, and not deal with all of them.

I already learnd all the common words but it was through reading and listening and all that jazz. i think studying onyomi is worthwhile if you're memorizing kanjis that share the same reading because of a radical (even then "skim study" don't hardcore memrize.... ) . but even if you dont' do that you're just gonna notice from reading and seeing it.

I haven't used mnemonics for learning readings, instead doing Iversen's method + sentence method reviews for learning readings and vocab.

There are a few good books - 2001 Kanji Odyssey, 「例文で学ぶ漢字と言葉N2」(Learn kanji and vocab by example), and Kanji in Context.

I've used parts of all three, but spending ~50 hours on 例文で... is what got me through JLPT2 years ago. It goes through the kanji in onyomi order アイ　エイ　カイ　ガイ　ケイ etc. which does help with memorizing the readings faster.

KiC is more comprehensive and goes through all N1 level stuff, but is harder to start with.

Yeah look, don't think about Kanji in isolation if you can. It helps initially in getting the basic feeling for their meaning and being able to recognize them, but it is not necessary to memorize all the different readings each one has out of context.

Think of the English word "to". Can you tell me all the uses that word has? That would be really tough. But you would recognize its meanings in context because of your extensive experience. Same goes with Kanji readings. Put your focus on words, and you will get a feel for how each kanji is supposed to sound depending on what role it is playing. Eventually you will be able to correctly guess what a kanji sounds like in a given word even if you have never seen that word before. Trying to reverse engineer the process is a headache though. What you need its lots and lots of reading combined with sentence/vocab study (anki).

bertoni Wrote:

anotherjohn Wrote:E.g. 研修 came up today. The first one is from けんきゅう (research), very familiar through over-use in the core 6k. But is 研 first or second in けんきゅう?

I think you mean けんしゅう. けんきゅう is 研究.

I think he meant "I recognize the 研 in 研修 as being the 研 in けんきゅう, but was it the けん or the きゅう? 研修 must be either けんしゅう or きゅうしゅう, but which?"

Vempele Wrote:

bertoni Wrote:

anotherjohn Wrote:E.g. 研修 came up today. The first one is from けんきゅう (research), very familiar through over-use in the core 6k. But is 研 first or second in けんきゅう?

I think you mean けんしゅう. けんきゅう is 研究.

I think he meant "I recognize the 研 in 研修 as being the 研 in けんきゅう, but was it the けん or the きゅう? 研修 must be either けんしゅう or きゅうしゅう, but which?"

Ah, thanks, got it.

tashippy Wrote:What's your goal in learning on-yomi? I think people could help give you better advice if they knew your purpose, e.g., to read books, to know a lot of kanji, to write in Japanese, to be overall fluent in the language, etc.
And yeah, usually when this question has come up here, as Ash_S said, most folks didn't use RTK2, and just picked up on-yomi as they learned new vocab. It's a bit strange sometimes, however, knowing there is a kanji for what you want to say, but not knowing the word or the reading, so I could see how it'd be useful to study on-yomi systematically to boost up the kanji you know. If you're interested in speaking, I would urge you not to hold off until you know more on-yomi, just dive in and start some language exchanges or what have you.
I'd be interested in your progress going forward, especially because there is a lack of reported experiences with RTK2 on this site, so keep us updated! 頑張って！

I can understand where people are coming from when they think learning the on-yomi systematically is a waste of time. Before diving into RTK2 and learning them systematically, I used to flip open Japanese dictionaries and try to learn them as I looked at words. There are advantages and weaknesses to both approaches though.

The problem with learning on-yomi as you learn vocab is that often you can't figure out the true on reading. Instead you might be reading a conjugated reading. For example the on-yomi in the second character of 天皇 ([kana]tennou[/kana], emperor) is [kana]OU[/kana] but because of conjugation it becomes [kana]nou[/kana].

Another example is in 述懐 (じゅっかい, recollection). The first kanji's on-yomi is [kana]JUTSU[/kana] but is read as じゅっ. If you were trying to reverse engineer what the on-yomi was, you might guess two possible options: [kana]JUSTSU[/kana] or [kana]JUKU[/kana]. You won't know for sure unless you see one of those two reading in another word or if you look it up in a dictionary or something. Then again you might recognize the kanji from 美術 (art), but you can see where I'm going.

A big advantage of learning the on-yomi systematically is that you can usually read words correctly when you see them for the first time. If you were walking around in Japan and noticed a sign with a kanji whose on-yomi you don't know, you can't read it. Since you don't know, if would be laborious to look up the kanji on jisho.org or a smartphone or something, then look up the word itself.

Another advantage is that you know which kanji have multiple on-yomi, preventing you from assuming it is a certain reading when you see words for the first time. For example in 後半, if you were inexperienced with kanji, you might think the first character is [kana]GO[/kana] because you remember 午後 (p.m.), but it's actually [kana]KOU[/kana] ([kana]kouhan[/kana], the second half).

tashippy Wrote:What's your goal in learning on-yomi? I think people could help give you better advice if they knew your purpose, e.g., to read books, to know a lot of kanji, to write in Japanese, to be overall fluent in the language, etc.
And yeah, usually when this question has come up here, as Ash_S said, most folks didn't use RTK2, and just picked up on-yomi as they learned new vocab. It's a bit strange sometimes, however, knowing there is a kanji for what you want to say, but not knowing the word or the reading, so I could see how it'd be useful to study on-yomi systematically to boost up the kanji you know. If you're interested in speaking, I would urge you not to hold off until you know more on-yomi, just dive in and start some language exchanges or what have you.
I'd be interested in your progress going forward, especially because there is a lack of reported experiences with RTK2 on this site, so keep us updated! 頑張って！

Good question. My goal is to become fluent in speaking, reading, and writing. I plan on teaching English in Japan after college. I studied Japanese in high school for 3 years, then went 4 1/2 years of very little studying until I picked it up again last summer. Since then I've been practicing speaking to Japanese students at my university and by reading Genki 2 and a grammar book, along with watching music videos, movies, etc.. I am willing to continue this, even if it takes years, until I can read Japanese books and newspapers at least adequately.

Danchan Wrote:Yeah look, don't think about Kanji in isolation if you can. It helps initially in getting the basic feeling for their meaning and being able to recognize them, but it is not necessary to memorize all the different readings each one has out of context.

Think of the English word "to". Can you tell me all the uses that word has? That would be really tough. But you would recognize its meanings in context because of your extensive experience. Same goes with Kanji readings. Put your focus on words, and you will get a feel for how each kanji is supposed to sound depending on what role it is playing. Eventually you will be able to correctly guess what a kanji sounds like in a given word even if you have never seen that word before. Trying to reverse engineer the process is a headache though. What you need its lots and lots of reading combined with sentence/vocab study (anki).

The assumption about RTK2 is that it teaches you kanji in isolation, but actually it gives you a sample word for each reading. You get even more context when you see the same kanji again in other example words, so by the end of the book you'll have seen many kanji over and over again

I don't solely depend on RTK2. I admit that it's tedious to learn that way, so I spice it up by using written material (newspapers, pamphlets,...) that I pick up in SF Japan Town or outside Japanese grocery stores, or just Youtube videos and Japanese sites.

Camreeno Wrote:I can understand where people are coming from when they think learning the on-yomi systematically is a waste of time. Before diving into RTK2 and learning them systematically, I used to flip open Japanese dictionaries and try to learn them as I looked at words. There are advantages and weaknesses to both approaches though.

The problem with learning on-yomi as you learn vocab is that often you can't figure out the true on reading. Instead you might be reading a conjugated reading. For example the on-yomi in the second character of 天皇 ([kana]tennou[/kana], emperor) is [kana]OU[/kana] but because of conjugation it becomes [kana]nou[/kana].

Another example is in 述懐 (じゅっかい, recollection). The first kanji's on-yomi is [kana]JUTSU[/kana] but is read as じゅっ. If you were trying to reverse engineer what the on-yomi was, you might guess two possible options: [kana]JUSTSU[/kana] or [kana]JUKU[/kana]. You won't know for sure unless you see one of those two reading in another word or if you look it up in a dictionary or something. Then again you might recognize the kanji from 美術 (art), but you can see where I'm going.

A big advantage of learning the on-yomi systematically is that you can usually read words correctly when you see them for the first time. If you were walking around in Japan and noticed a sign with a kanji whose on-yomi you don't know, you can't read it. Since you don't know, if would be laborious to look up the kanji on jisho.org or a smartphone or something, then look up the word itself.

Another advantage is that you know which kanji have multiple on-yomi, preventing you from assuming it is a certain reading when you see words for the first time. For example in 後半, if you were inexperienced with kanji, you might think the first character is [kana]GO[/kana] because you remember 午後 (p.m.), but it's actually [kana]KOU[/kana] ([kana]kouhan[/kana], the second half).

I think I learned all those little rules that change the reading simply by Anki'ing enough vocabulary. It's not that hard to figure out. OTOH even if you do RTK2 there are still some on-yomi that have to be brute force memorized....

Example (is 大 tai or dai or something completely different?): 大吉, 大腸, 大望, 大切, 大事, 大蛇

kanon Wrote:

Camreeno Wrote:I can understand where people are coming from when they think learning the on-yomi systematically is a waste of time. Before diving into RTK2 and learning them systematically, I used to flip open Japanese dictionaries and try to learn them as I looked at words. There are advantages and weaknesses to both approaches though.

The problem with learning on-yomi as you learn vocab is that often you can't figure out the true on reading. Instead you might be reading a conjugated reading. For example the on-yomi in the second character of 天皇 ([kana]tennou[/kana], emperor) is [kana]OU[/kana] but because of conjugation it becomes [kana]nou[/kana].

Another example is in 述懐 (じゅっかい, recollection). The first kanji's on-yomi is [kana]JUTSU[/kana] but is read as じゅっ. If you were trying to reverse engineer what the on-yomi was, you might guess two possible options: [kana]JUSTSU[/kana] or [kana]JUKU[/kana]. You won't know for sure unless you see one of those two reading in another word or if you look it up in a dictionary or something. Then again you might recognize the kanji from 美術 (art), but you can see where I'm going.

A big advantage of learning the on-yomi systematically is that you can usually read words correctly when you see them for the first time. If you were walking around in Japan and noticed a sign with a kanji whose on-yomi you don't know, you can't read it. Since you don't know, if would be laborious to look up the kanji on jisho.org or a smartphone or something, then look up the word itself.

Another advantage is that you know which kanji have multiple on-yomi, preventing you from assuming it is a certain reading when you see words for the first time. For example in 後半, if you were inexperienced with kanji, you might think the first character is [kana]GO[/kana] because you remember 午後 (p.m.), but it's actually [kana]KOU[/kana] ([kana]kouhan[/kana], the second half).

I think I learned all those little rules that change the reading simply by Anki'ing enough vocabulary. It's not that hard to figure out. OTOH even if you do RTK2 there are still some on-yomi that have to be brute force memorized....

Example (is tai or dai or something completely different?): 大吉, 大腸, 大望, 大切, 大事, 大蛇

I agree. The 大 thing is also the same with 分... 五分, 二分, etc.. I like the certainty with learning systematically, but it's a personal preference thing.

The tai and dai readings are different era of on-yomi and are loooosely associated with different categories of words. It's not a very helpful heuristic for guessing in practice though.

Camreeno Wrote:Another example is in 述懐 (じゅっかい, recollection). The first kanji's on-yomi is [kana]JUTSU[/kana] but is read as じゅっ. If you were trying to reverse engineer what the on-yomi was, you might guess two possible options: [kana]JUSTSU[/kana] or [kana]JUKU[/kana]. You won't know for sure unless you see one of those two reading in another word or if you look it up in a dictionary or something. Then again you might recognize the kanji from 美術 (art), but you can see where I'm going.

A big advantage of learning the on-yomi systematically is that you can usually read words correctly when you see them for the first time. If you were walking around in Japan and noticed a sign with a kanji whose on-yomi you don't know, you can't read it. Since you don't know, if would be laborious to look up the kanji on jisho.org or a smartphone or something, then look up the word itself.

Another advantage is that you know which kanji have multiple on-yomi, preventing you from assuming it is a certain reading when you see words for the first time. For example in 後半, if you were inexperienced with kanji, you might think the first character is [kana]GO[/kana] because you remember 午後 (p.m.), but it's actually [kana]KOU[/kana] ([kana]kouhan[/kana], the second half).

The latter two are good reasons. I have been surprised when some common kanji show up with a 6th on-yomi (生, for example). But I think the pronunciations like じゅっかい are more auditory patterns you pick up and can even anticipate based on how the language should sound, rather than memorizing.

What are the 6 on-yomi of 生? I only know of 2 (you shouldn't count the voiced variations as separate on-yomi, but even if you did that's still only 4)