sethg Wrote:Sadly, I'd tell myself, "Enjoy learning the language. Have fun! Make friends. But never go to work in Japan. Never put yourself through the ridiculous torture of working at a typical Japanese company. Study in Japan. Live in Japan. Don't work in Japan, though. It will make you lose every ounce of love you have for the language, because you will be berated in it, talked down to in it, and, no matter how well you speak it, you will be treated as forever an outsider who can never 'understand how the Japanese think' or some such nonsense."

For study, though, I'd tell myself to start reading sooner. And I'd tell myself to stop trying to learn every kanji perfectly, and instead focus more on enjoying the process after learning the main 2,000.

To be honest, this is a primary part of my disaffection; the work culture. I have to watch while my partner is made to work and study for every waking hour (and she doesn't get many sleeping hours). She is studying right now as I am writing this, and it is half past midnight. She gets up at seven to go to work. This is her reward for making the mistake of learning Japanese and coming to Japan; to be exploited thanks to the lack of enforced labor laws, and be treated poorly because of being foreign. And this is after getting into a "top" school and a "good" company. Her pride wont let her quit so soon after entering, but our priority is to leave within a few years and never come back. That has a way of making you bitter.

To the younger people I would say listen to Sethg. Think twice about working here. You are taking a big risk. Enjoy visiting Japan and learning Japanese. It is a very interesting language, and you are sure to have a good time. There are lots of kind and considerate people here too. But the society is bloody rough. It just doesn't look that way at first for outsiders, because the social violence is very "in house".

I would've told myself back in my anime/otaku days (10 years ago?) to stop messing around and study while watching.

I had really strong motivation back then and I wasted that opportunity.

I would've told myself to start earlier since high school and middle school is such a joke in America. I had so much time then. I did have a desire to learn japanese but I just felt so deterred from all the weaaboos that were failing on the Internet and people sayin it's really hard or impossible by bringing up military laguage difficulty schedule.what finally got me to start was an obnoxious and annoying white girl on YouTube who spoke japanese with a pretty good accent( no typical white person american accent). People would point out that she tries to make it seem like she speaks japanese better than she does. She jus irritated me and so I started and i understood everything she said with tae Kim's grammar guide and learning common vocabulary. This advice isnt that helpful since I'm sure most people here are here because they're learning language but it is possible that aspiring language learners are checking out this forum. And I'm sure others can relate

edit: so the girl is applemilk1988

http://raspberrysyrup.livejournal.com/

howtwosavealif3 Wrote:I would've told myself to start earlier since high school and middle school is such a joke in America. I had so much time then. I did have a desire to learn japanese but I just felt so deterred from all the weaaboos that were failing on the Internet and people sayin it's really hard or impossible by bringing up military laguage difficulty schedule.what finally got me to start was an obnoxious and annoying white girl on YouTube who spoke japanese with a pretty good accent( no typical white person american accent). People would point out that she tries to make it seem like she speaks japanese better than she does. She jus irritated me and so I started and i understood everything she said with tae Kim's grammar guide and learning common vocabulary. This advice isnt that helpful since I'm sure most people here are here because they're learning language but it is possible that aspiring language learners are checking out this forum. And I'm sure others can relate

Do you remember who the girl was?

Re: Japan is a terrible place to work

I think many Japanese actually buy into their native work culture. "社会人" is often said with reverence, like they're some sort of demigods who have emerged from the pits from hell and now defiantly ask for more. Japanese often complain about their work culture, but they also admire the hero in the office drama who constantly pulls all nighters and refuses to give up in the face of any challenge, even flagrant abuse. In Japan, you don't leave the company, that's cowardly. You persist no matter what until you win the hearts and respect of your co-workers. This is extra cool because you show that you're 我慢強い and everyone recognizes your 頑張っている姿.

Japanese friends have also told me they think American work culture is cold. In the U.S. (and most of Europe, I assume), you go to work and then you go home. Sometimes you may go out after work with your colleagues, but it's not often and no one ever expects you to go. It's ironic since the same people who say American work culture is cold also have complained to me about having to go out with their Japanese colleagues. It makes me suspect that their "complaining" is similar to that of Americans who constantly complain about being "busy." In both cases, they actually enjoy what they're doing, but they feel obligated to complain so they don't come off as overachievers.

Is it really that bad?

Anyone here teach/taught English or work as a translator in Japan? I'm sure it's not always bad for foreigners working in Japan. Will do some research.

I'd tell myself:

Don't keep taking classes if they are ineffective for you. By all means, try them, but don't keep taking them if it feels like banging your head against a wall, expecting that if you take one more class, it'll be better *this* time. It won't, and there's nothing wrong with you for learning better through self study. People learn better in different ways. Just try to forget your Japanese class experiences ever happened, and put it behind you.

Don't keep trying to like doramas just because other people do, and that you like anime. Be happy that you've found other things you like.

Stop complaining about how kanji is hard sooner, and start researching methods to learn it sooner.

Stop being friends with people who love to berate your learning Japanese. Those who call you a weaboo, a wannabe Asian, someone who should just learn Spanish instead, someone who's forgotten who they are, etc. Let them call you names, let them tell you how you'll fail in a million ways, how you should just take classes, etc. Let them, but don't let them get to you, and don't hang around them if you don't need to. They've likely been burned by trying to realize a dream in the past, and have accepted a life of no goals and mediocrity. They think they're trying to save you the disappointment of failure, but they're also reinforcing their excuses for having given up.

Failures are valuable. They show you what doesn't work. Use them to steer yourself towards what does.

Don't get upset if this all seems overwhelming some days. Just take it one small part at a time, and you'll get there. Celebrate the words you already know.

Start Anki sooner.

Make an immersion environment sooner. This includes changing your computer and phone's interface language. The coworkers you worried would get mad, will actually be impressed, so although you'll need to use a dictionary more, soon English computers & phones will feel a little weird, while Japanese ones will be completely normal for you. Enjoy it when it happens, and enjoy using your portable Japanese learning tools.

Stop using romaji sooner. It will oddly make things easier.

*opens Japanese novel* See this book full of squiggles? One day you'll be able to read it. You'll understand the anime series which move you so much without subs, you'll sing and understand the j-pop songs which fill your CDs, you'll have dreams in Japanese, and pass JLPT N1. Now, what are you going to do to make this happen?

Animosophy Wrote:Is it really that bad?

I only speak from personal experience but I wouldn't say it's that bad working in Japan. At least in the short term (3-5 years).

There are a whole lot of disclaimers you need to know about though:

First, your satisfaction level will be related to how much BS you are willing to put up with and your personal work ethic. I know a number of non-Japanese people working in Japan who are absolute workaholics and love nothing more than staying at the office until 11pm. I also know a lot of people who have basically told their bosses that they have absolutely no intention of ever working a single minute of overtime or going to after hours nomikai, and they are still around because they are rather high performers and my company isn't one of those who will transfer you to the outcast room in the basement to force you to quit.

Second, you need to know that every company and industry is different and there are even vast differences within industries and within different departments in companies. My company is not a "black" company but there are departments here that I will straight up call "black departments". Be careful where you go and make sure to do your research.

Third, "most" decent Japanese managers are not going to expect you to work like a Japanese person. This is good in that most of the crazy work-related stuff will not apply to you but it's bad in that you will surely hit the "rice ceiling" somewhere in your career, usually at a surprisingly low level (just before being promoted to first level of management). No one will ever tell you why your career isn't progressing but the real reason is that you simply don't fit in well enough (both culturally and linguistically) with the majority of staff to progress up the ladder.

In conclusion, I think Japan is a great place to live and work in the short term. If you are looking for a long-term experience, it gets much more difficult.

Also - since someone will probably mention it sooner or later - foreign companies in Japan are not exempt from the effects of traditional Japanese business culture. Just because a few key managers are not Japanese doesn't mean that the other 98% of the workforce is going to adopt non-Japanese business or management practices.

And - to not completely derail the thread - If I could send a message to my younger self, I would encourage myself to pick up Japanese at a younger age. I started studying Japanese at 25 and I would love to see what level I would be at if I started at 15.

I would've told myself to use Anki earlier. I'd already speak Japanese now, plus German and Italian, but sadly I couldn't keep any of the vocabulary in my head and when I started getting busy with classes I gave up.

To my three-months-ago self, though, I'd tell him not to pick Japanese up again, because I'm getting sidetracked. But I think I'm starting to manage my different duties better now.

I wish I bothered with German at 13. I coasted through five years of classes and didn't really learn anything at all. Then at 20, I started learning it by myself, following most of the key concepts behind learning strategies here: anki and immersion over only dry, boring textbook study.

Now, at 22, I've fallen in love with German, and can speak it sort of well, and immersion barely counts as language practice.

If I bothered with German earlier, I'd have more time for Japanese now, and I'd probably be fluent in both.

But hey, we can't change the past now, can we? Past mistakes are nothing but lessons for the future!

...also, I should have totally bought a couple hundred bitcoins when they were less than a dollar a pop.

@Womacks23
Most of your comments and suggestions are great. I think more can be said about this one, though:

Womacks23 Wrote:I know a number of non-Japanese people working in Japan who are absolute workaholics and love nothing more than staying at the office until 11pm.

Likewise, I know plenty of non-Japanese (mostly scientists and programmers) who have been workaholics in both Japan and the U.S. However, most of them prefer being workaholics in the U.S. Why? The work environment is more collaborative, the hierarchy is flatter, and the exchange of ideas is less constrained. In Japan, you have to fawn over your superiors' every word and no one really shares bold, creative ideas. In contrast, my friends talk about a dynamic energy in American labs and offices that they've yet to discover in Japan.

I'm interested in hearing from someone who is working at or has worked at a somewhere like Google, Yahoo, or a tech startup in Japan. Perhaps those environments are less asphyxiating than more traditional ones.

To keep it succinct I'd probably just tell myself not to concern myself with completing RtK (Vol. 1) first before doing anything else. Also I'd probably recommend myself to not do RtK vanilla.

To reply to the OP:

I'd make more Japanese friends and use Lang-8 more. I'd also do a better job of taming the Instant Gratification Monkey.

For the original question I would say practice listening more and learning phrases over individual words.

Regarding the work in japan comment. Especially for people in the software industry, you can earn about double the salary in the US and work 1/2 the number of hours. So best would be work 1/2 year here then travel (to japan, etc), for the other half. Earn the same as if you killed yourself working in jp for that year and have more fun.

@vileru I hate that monkey.

To my old self: read more, write more, speak more, post less. A lot less. Obsess a few orders of magnitude LESS about Anki. It's useful, but so is reading a book, and reading a book is more fun.

Honestly, nothing. I'm more than satisfied with the progress I've made in the time I've been studying Japanese. I'm happy for the fact that I wake up every day looking forward to learning more, and I dread when the day comes that I feel I have no more to learn.

-When taking a class at four times the speed you normally would, don't worry about adding new Anki cards or doing much of anything other than reviews; your wallet will thank you and it will keep you from screwing up your progress in your program (stupid classes that are available only one semester out of the year).

-Aside from tutors (if desired), you should pay no one for your study materials. In other words, the information or materials some guy wants twenty bucks for is available free somewhere on the internet. Legally, even.
Save your money for books.

-Start practice listening sooner. Reading is great, but listening practice is easy to do and can be done in far more environments than reading can.

-Read more LNs, VNs, or novels. Anki is great, but past me should have read more things that didn't have pictures instead of adjective and adverb phrases.

-Don't spend so much time preparing material that you don't have time to study.

-Consistency is key. (Does anyone else smell cheese?)

-100 new cards a day will be close to 600 reviews per day; could past me handle that properly? No. Now I'm going back over many of those words.

-Avoid furigana when possible; it's great in some cases, but you won't actually look at the kanji if there's furigana all over the place, past me.

-Start production practice sooner. Heck, all it takes is a cheesy day report or a random babble about some topic that you happened to learn vocabulary for recently.

-Quit going on the internet so much. If it isn't in Japanese, it probably isn't helping you any. That includes Japan blogs like Tofugu and forums such as this.
(to prevent myself sounding like a hypocrite, I'll state that I haven't browsed the web for pleasure in about three days. Keeping your computer turned off helps a lot.)

And if we're talking about money, I definitely would have horded my earnings a bit more; I'd take one more penny a month (it's a pity that your interest rate on that loan is so low, I'd like to actually earn money by having a savings account without being a millionaire).

sholum Wrote:-Don't spend so much time preparing material that you don't have time to study.

I think only hardcore Ankiheads will get how big this one is. My moment was when I found myself spending a non-trivial time creating a vocab card for 射礼 because I read it in one sentence in one book about the Heian court. Seriously, some stuff just isn't worth the effort. Better to keep reading.

I would have told him, "Heisig." That would have helped younger me immeasurably.

All those years failing to "brute-force" understand sentences, and all those obtuse Japanese teachers. The effort and enthusiasm was absolutely there, but the right resources eluded me. Despite scouring web searches, I only heard about RtK about 5 years ago.

I also would have told him that living in Japan is a waste of time, and won't work out in the end. But he wouldn't have listened.

sholum Wrote:-Don't spend so much time preparing material that you don't have time to study.

Also guilty. I would spend an inordinate amount of time creating decks I wasn't excited about plowing through instead of reading, writing, talking, and listening.

sholum Wrote:-Read more LNs, VNs, or novels. Anki is great, but past me should have read more things that didn't have pictures instead of adjective and adverb phrases.

Yeah, manga made me feel like, "I'm reading Japanese and understanding it!" when the pictures were covering bigger gaps in comprehension than I thought were there at the time.

sholum Wrote:-Avoid furigana when possible; it's great in some cases, but you won't actually look at the kanji if there's furigana all over the place, past me.

This too. And what has lots of furigana? Manga. D'oh. (Not all manga does, to be fair.)

Also, Anki helped a lot early on. So did Manga. It helped me get good fast with reading hiragana and katakana. But after a certain point, I should have moved on. Live and learn.

rich_f Wrote:manga is bad

But manga is good at teaching slang. If you started with novels instead you'd be complaining that you didn't consume enough casual Japanese. Reminds of when I sometimes here people say they are really good at listening but they just wish they could understand kanji. I'm the exact opposite, I wish I could just listen better. I guess the grass is always greener.

kameden Wrote:Reminds of when I sometimes here people say they are really good at listening but they just wish they could understand kanji. I'm the exact opposite, I wish I could just listen better.

+1 for that boat - can read wikipedia no problem, can't follow a variety show... :\

kameden Wrote:Reminds of when I sometimes here people say they are really good at listening but they just wish they could understand kanji. I'm the exact opposite, I wish I could just listen better. I guess the grass is always greener.

LOL, I'm the same way. Thanks to JLPT study, I can read most things, and follow podcasts, etc, but my speaking needs lots of work. The grass really is always greener...

Sauzer Wrote:

kameden Wrote:Reminds of when I sometimes here people say they are really good at listening but they just wish they could understand kanji. I'm the exact opposite, I wish I could just listen better.

+1 for that boat - can read wikipedia no problem, can't follow a variety show... :\

In my opinion, it's not that manga is bad, it's that manga stops being studying a lot quicker than people realize. The key is to use it for study when your level is lower, recognize when it stops being studying, and then move to more substantial reading like novels or long news articles at that point.

Continuing to read it for fun after that is fine, but it's important to be careful not to delude yourself into thinking it's studying when you're burning through a volume in 30 minutes while learning only 2 new words.

Being able to read manga is a great thing, and that's a fantastic feeling. For a lot of people it's the first thing that starts to give them a sense of, "I've got the hang of this! I'm enjoying this thing! In Japanese!" That's really good and really positive. Languishing at around that same level of Japanese for a year because you've convinced yourself you're studying by reading manga still is less positive.

@ the working in Japan comments...
I am guessing you have been in Japan less than 10 years? I say this because around the 15 year point I came to grasp the "kindness in meanness" part of Japanese life. It is something that most foreigners will never accept, if you are taught your whole life to be nice to others. As sadistic as it may sound, you should try and accept the positive side of the direct, condescending attitude of your colleagues. It means they have accepted you into an inner circle that doesn't need to hide behind masks of benevolence. As a personal example, I broke my arms a few years ago (yes both of them). I was completely dependant on others for 6 weeks. Every person who visited me immediately said, Klutz! I was getting pretty annoyed and discussed it with my wife. Her reply opened my eyes to Japanese way of thinking and made my life in Japan so much happier. She said, if you want everyone to bow and be polite to you, I will tell them. But, they will be that way to you forever from now on. Being completely accepted in Japan is different than in the West. Don't think too much and try to be happier!