Thanks for the pat on the back xD

I do agree that it is much easier for an adult learner to acquire vocabulary due to their already large vocabularies in being able to understand concepts they're already familiar with. But while your son may be struggling with conjugations now, he'll be better off in the long run when it comes to syntax and pronunciation (maybe even semantics) as he doesn't have nearly as much language baggage as someone my age. I'm not necessarily saying it's harder one way or the other (whether you're an adult or a child), but I do know that in terms of accuracy, children get the ribbon in the long run. I'm not saying adult's can't reach close to native-like proficiency, but I am a bit concerned I'll be keeping my horrible accent and remain confused about certain nuances (そう、らしい、よう、みたい、でしょう、見える。。。んだ。。。は。。。。が。。。。) for a long, long time.

Until then, I'll just keep plugging along

tikka Wrote:"But children learn.." No. [etc]

Yes, omfg yes! I always hate how people say 'oh but children learn much faster/better' etc, when actually, you're a lot faster and better at studying a language when you're older, and have more cognition to bring to bear on it.

Will365 Wrote:But while your son may be struggling with conjugations now, he'll be better off in the long run

Only, and ONLY, because of the massive difference in "correct" input, hell, even any input. If you listened to Japanese/read Japanese all your waking hours for 10 years, you'd be "native" too.

It occurred to me recently that one advantage children do have is that they are extremely tolerant of repetition.

They can watch the same 5-minute cartoon every day and find it just as hilarious and fascinating the 10th time as the 1st. That's got to be a big advantage for learning, and hard to emulate as an adult.

Children also learn a language for what it is, while adults tend to learn new languages in terms of the other language(s) they already know. So for the first few years, adult learners waste their time trying to explain and understand x language in terms of y language instead of just trying to understand x language for what it is.

But as far as the topic of the thread is concerned, I'm lucky enough to be able to study however long I want each day. I have services from 5:00 to 11:00 weekday mornings, but the rest of my time is spent reading and studying.

Will365 Wrote:language baggage

Will a professional watercolor artist have trouble learning to use Photoshop because of his 'artistic baggage'? Of course not. The same thing applies to more or less everything. If you are an expert in some field, it's easier to learn things that are closely related to that field of expertise.

Also, how would you explain the differences of similar grammar points to someone who doesn't know his first language yet? By teaching him a language and then explaining the things in that language.

If there is such a thing as 'language baggage', it's a bag filled with tools rather than digested grass and lead.

will365`s post gave me hope. right now I do have alot of time and he accomplished alot in 1 year. I wonder if he also managed to stay healthy. And how he rewarded himself/relaxed.

I am 36y old god dammit. It might be too late for a career change lmao. This is my biggest problem. Not stamina or something but seeing myself in the future :/ But thats the beauty of it. To just do it cause it will be the most important thing I ever did.

If you wanna play poker professionally or DOTA/LOL of course teenagers have an edge. But thats it.
S. Krashen or S. Kaufmann have some videos about age and language learning.

Gaijinme Wrote:will365`s post gave me hope. right now I do have alot of time and he accomplished alot in 1 year. I wonder if he also managed to stay healthy. And how he rewarded himself/relaxed.

I am 36y old god dammit. It might be too late for a career change lmao. This is my biggest problem. Not stamina or something but seeing myself in the future :/ But thats the beauty of it. To just do it cause it will be the most important thing I ever did.

I jog occasionally and take daily doses of nootropics in order to keep my brain running xD personally, I'm a big fan of L-theanine. I used to take over the counter lithium to help with grey matter but didn't like the way it made me feel. I'm noticing it's harder to stay in shape as I get older. I don't really relax much, except maybe play videogames in Japanese occasionally. It's not healthy, but I'm on a deadline with my studies.

Working as an English tutor for the local community college has shown me a few of the disadvantages of being older when you're learning a second language, especially when it comes down to accent and syntax. I have a lot of students who don't seem to progress much in the language even a year later, but there's a few factors unrelated to age here, I think. Most older students simply don't have much time due to work, family obligations, etc. The other thing is that they don't step out of their own language community to speak with other native English speakers.

I'm a big fan of massive comprehensible meaningful input, and repetition. I say repetition but I don't mean sitting there for hours practicing conjugations of words by themselves. A little of that can be helpful, but you'll pick up on it more naturally if you read (aloud) something you enjoy.

Japanese kind of sucks in terms of picking up the language through reading though, as the spoken and written forms are very different, which is why I try to read manga or watch (good) anime with KANJI subtitles too. If you can find something with audio and text, I think it'll take you farther than just one or the other. Reading and listening to Harry Potter books and audiobooks 1-7 in Spanish really did contribute the most to my language learning. But again, written and spoken forms of Japanese are very different, and the number of cognates between English and Japanese are much lower. But if you grew up reading Harry Potter (or whatever), then there's a good chance it comprises a good portion of your vocab, and it gives you a sort of stepping-stone into reading native materials because you infer much more of the content from previous experience. Not to mention the series becomes increasingly more difficult.

tikka Wrote:

Will365 Wrote:I'm currently 25, meaning my ability to learn a new language compared to someone still in high school is poor

I strongly suggest that you also read about the "too old to learn a language" myth. Believing that kind of nonsense may slow down your progress.

I agree with you, but I assumed he was talking about having a lot more distractions(work, dating, parties...) than a high school student. But maybe I'm wrong.

yogert909 Wrote:

tikka Wrote:

Will365 Wrote:I'm currently 25, meaning my ability to learn a new language compared to someone still in high school is poor

I strongly suggest that you also read about the "too old to learn a language" myth. Believing that kind of nonsense may slow down your progress.

I agree with you, but I assumed he was talking about having a lot more distractions(work, dating, parties...) than a high school student. But maybe I'm wrong.

It's partly that, yes. And don't get me wrong, I don't think you're ever too old to learn a language, but it does become increasingly difficult the older you get to reach native like fluency. Keyword is "nativelike." I'm not keen on writing another lengthy post but it does get harder to distinguish similar sounds the older you get, and while basic Japanese is easy in terms of pronunciation, I'm still struggling with distinguishing certain sound clusters, pitch accent, and long vowels (though that last one is getting a bit easier).

But yeah, don't let your age be a controlling factor. There's ways around a lot of these difficulties. It's just a matter of time, exposure, and practice. And again, you have a serious advantage over kids when it comes to learning masses amounts of vocab.

Will365 Wrote:I jog occasionally and take daily doses of nootropics in order to keep my brain running xD personally, I'm a big fan of L-theanine. I used to take over the counter lithium to help with grey matter but didn't like the way it made me feel.

You're as mad as hell.

Will365 Wrote:I'm noticing it's harder to stay in shape as I get older..

And that surprises you?

tikka Wrote:[snip: a bunch of stuff about kids]
That being said, if there is a difference between young kids' and adults' learning efficiency, its because of the difference in their methods, not in their brain. And it's for the good of the adult learner.

That's just not true. As someone who has spent a long time learning about the science of children's intake of language, I can tell you there is plenty of research which shows that the difference very much IS in their brain. Children *need* to learn differently than adults because they have nothing to base it on nor the cognitive ability to do it. They just believe and use whatever they hear, and have a very, very good ability to figure out what you mean even when they don't understand the actual words used. The average adult needs to train themselves in this ability as you lose if you don't use it (same as anything). As we study a new language, this basically comes back in some form but most of us still need to base things on our first language to make sense. Children don't need this and in fact can make things more confusing. You know how many adults have barriers set in place by their first language? The grammar rules of the L1 are seriously hard to break when getting into L2. You have to really consciously try and listen to and replicate natural language for quite a while before you can get over that. Some people have a more natural ability. Some are just lost forever. But most can figure it out if they care enough. It's just something kids don't deal with. They follow grammar rules of a new language without even thinking. Their old grammar doesn't even come into play. This stops around age 6 or so.

Once you are an adult (and by adult, I mean 11 years or older), your first language is more or less set and you will be learning as a second language. The information is basically stored and accessed separately from your first language. From 0 to around 6 or 7 years old, all language is basically stored in the same place and you have the greatest chance of being bilingual if exposed to enough of both languages. Those middle ages between 7 and 11 are where each child really differs. They can still hear the sounds and replicate them, but most of it is being treated as as second language, unless they are exposed every day, especially during their formal education, and then they can still be bilingual.

You are right that it's not just age that affects people (though there is plenty to show that a 20 year old and a 50 year old have different experiences trying to learn a new language). But children DO learn differently, as evolution made them so. The nonsense about high schoolers vs. a 25 year old though, that is crap. You think 7 years really hurt you? No, what hurt you is the high schooler was put into a 100% Japanese environment, speaking Japanese out of necessity, being educated in Japanese, and are basically AJATT. Then of course they get good. Anyone would. But as adults, we often have other responsibilities which take our time, and our formal education is not (was not) in Japanese, so we're at a disadvantage about that. We have to make up for it with will-power, which Will has a lot of. Perfect name. I couldn't (nor would I want to) even attempt that. Sounds boring as shit! But more power to ya! I bet your Japanese is (will be) super boss. That is cool and clearly a result of solid effort. So hats off!

Jawful Wrote:That's just not true. As someone who has spent a long time learning about the science of children's intake of language, I can tell you there is plenty of research which shows that the difference very much IS in their brain.

Yes, I admit that there's a huge difference between an undeveloped brain and a fully developed one. But the difference between learning efficiency is caused by the difference in learning methods instead of the biological stuff.

Quote:Children *need* to learn differently than adults because they have nothing to base it on nor the cognitive ability to do it. They just believe and use whatever they hear, and have a very, very good ability to figure out what you mean even when they don't understand the actual words used

This is a really interesting thing, actually. But I get the feeling that most people who claim this to be important are actually forgetting a couple of things. A newborn child does not know that he exists as a separate entity. He does not know that speech is speech and not just any sound like the others. After that he must realise that communication exists and speech is used for it. All of that without knowing a language in which to think in! It takes a lot of "study hours" to get that far and the actual learning hasn't even started yet. The time it takes to learn the first couple of hundred words of one's first language is often underestimated, too. A quick googling says that at the age of four a kid is supposed to know about 1500 words (and of course can't write more than his own name). That's after more "study hours" than it takes to pass JLPTN1.

If kids had a chance (and a deadline) they would choose SRS and a grammar book.

Quote:The average adult needs to train themselves in this ability as you lose if you don't use it (same as anything). As we study a new language, this basically comes back in some form but most of us still need to base things on our first language to make sense. Children don't need this and in fact can make things more confusing. You know how many adults have barriers set in place by their first language? The grammar rules of the L1 are seriously hard to break when getting into L2.

I apologize for always underestimating the trouble those people who learn Japanese as their L2 go trough. Maybe it was the same for me with my L2 and breaking those "barriers" back then has made learning L3 a lot easier. Who knows.

Quote:You have to really consciously try and listen to and replicate natural language for quite a while before you can get over that.

Learning things consciously is usually faster than just accidentally picking them up. For example, phonetic stuff can be explained in words and that makes it very much faster than the 'kids' way' of just repeating things until it sounds right. Most grammar points can be learnt in minutes of reading DoJG instead of hundreds of hours of listening to partially incomprehensible speech.

Quote:Some people have a more natural ability. Some are just lost forever. But most can figure it out if they care enough. It's just something kids don't deal with. They follow grammar rules of a new language without even thinking. Their old grammar doesn't even come into play. This stops around age 6 or so.

Without really having studied children's brains, I claim that the biggest factor here is the amount of "study" they have done by that age. Use your L2 for a couple of years as an adult and you will follow grammar rules without thinking about them. Just like a kid does and just for the same reason which is the huge amount of language immersion, not the biological state of the brain.

Quote:Once you are an adult (and by adult, I mean 11 years or older), your first language is more or less set and you will be learning as a second language. The information is basically stored and accessed separately from your first language. From 0 to around 6 or 7 years old, all language is basically stored in the same place and you have the greatest chance of being bilingual if exposed to enough of both languages. Those middle ages between 7 and 11 are where each child really differs. They can still hear the sounds and replicate them, but most of it is being treated as as second language, unless they are exposed every day, especially during their formal education, and then they can still be bilingual

Does the part of the brain in which a second language is 'stored' really matter? I mean, yes, different parts of the brain are used for different things. But does it necessarily mean that one is better than the other or is it more like.. the brain is just functioning as it's supposed to be and as a result you can learn a second language?

Also, I really agree that you have to use the language daily or you won't learn it.

tikka Wrote:Yes, I admit that there's a huge difference between an undeveloped brain and a fully developed one. But the difference between learning efficiency is caused by the difference in learning methods instead of the biological stuff.

OK, I agree about efficiency. That seems to be the key point of your argument and not at all what I was touching on. Yes, an adult who has learned how to learn can do it more quickly than a child. Learning is a skill and if you are good at learning, you are even faster at picking up languages than the average person.

Quote:This is a really interesting thing, actually. But I get the feeling that most people who claim this to be important are actually forgetting a couple of things. A newborn child does not know that he exists as a separate entity. [snipped for space] That's after more "study hours" than it takes to pass JLPTN1.

But *is* important. Equating a child's learning of a language with an adult's studying of a language doesn't work. They aren't "studying". They are naturally picking it up and when done in the right environment, can become close to native speakers. I know many, many speakers of Japanese who will never and could never pass as a native. Most of them make grammar mistakes regularly. I personally sometimes make grammar mistakes when speaking, and I hear myself making them because I understand the rules and I usually correct it right after. And I live in Japan, surrounded by Japanese all the time, and have been doing so for the last 9 years. A child of 6 understands all the rules even if my vocabulary is better, and even if they stopped speaking Japanese now and picked it up again in 15 years, they would become better, faster because of the wonder that is L1.

Quote:Learning things consciously is usually faster than just accidentally picking them up. For example, phonetic stuff can be explained in words and that makes it very much faster than the 'kids' way' of just repeating things until it sounds right. Most grammar points can be learnt in minutes of reading DoJG instead of hundreds of hours of listening to partially incomprehensible speech.

Agreed. I apologize if it sounded as I was trying to say it was faster. I'm claiming that for the average person, it's simply *better* to learn as a child as you get it without conscious effort, your pronunciation is almost assuredly better, and you won't make grammatical mistakes. It's just vocab after that.

Quote:Without really having studied children's brains, I claim that the biggest factor here is the amount of "study" they have done by that age. Use your L2 for a couple of years as an adult and you will follow grammar rules without thinking about them. Just like a kid does and just for the same reason which is the huge amount of language immersion, not the biological state of the brain.

Your brain will do it without thinking. I know that and mine does it for Japanese for a lot of things. But again, there is a difference in how the brain takes in language and roughly what age it switches to another method. One is based on the language itself and another is based on language concepts you already know. In the first case, your pronunciation and grammar usage will be more natural but as you argue, it's possible to learn it more quickly as an adult *if you have the willpower to do it*. Not everyone does so if they learn as a child, they get to receive that language almost as a gift. Something I plan to do for my own daughter as we raise her bilingual.

Quote:Does the part of the brain in which a second language is 'stored' really matter? I mean, yes, different parts of the brain are used for different things. But does it necessarily mean that one is better than the other or is it more like.. the brain is just functioning as it's supposed to be and as a result you can learn a second language?

That's a good question. Does it? Maybe not. There is still ongoing research into that. But it seems to point to whether your brain treats a language as L1 and L2. Having a language as L1 is much easier.


I don't think we're really in disagreement, except for the part about biology. It's fact that there are biological differences between how a child learns language and an adult learns language. I think a child has it better because they get to absorb the language with less stress and little to know work. Especially if they are exposed to it before age 3 on through 6.

Let me summarize for clarity (which is why I'm posting separately).

Any child can learn without even trying if exposed to a language. And I mean ANY child no matter what their learning capacity is.

Almost any adult can learn *but only* if they actually put in effort and have the willpower to follow through, but I'm willing to argue that even then some adults just simply can't do it. They just don't have the ability or the memory power.

Jawful Wrote:OK, I agree about efficiency. That seems to be the key point of your argument and not at all what I was touching on.

Well, if we are not even talking about the same thing and I only just now realize that, it kind of proves your point. No matter how efficiently I have learned my second language, I have not learned it to the 'native-like extent' where I could understand everything that's being written between the lines or something like that.

Quote:They [kids]are naturally picking it up and when done in the right environment, can become close to native speakers

So, if we forget about efficiency now.. Are you saying that someone who lives in, for example, Japan since 'day 1' becomes a better speaker than someone who moves there at the age of one or two or something? So that the difference in their speech would still be there decades later? So one would be a native speaker but the other would be only 'close to native'?

Quote:I know many, many speakers of Japanese who will never and could never pass as a native. Most of them make grammar mistakes regularly. I personally sometimes make grammar mistakes when speaking

Native speakers also make mistakes. Or do they in Japan, I dont really know about the Japanese.. But everywhere else they do. In some languages written mistakes are common, in others native speakers make a lot of spoken ones. The point is, they still remain as native speakers. If a westerner does the same mistake, he is only 'close to native'. So at least a part of the problem is psychological. Of course the biggest part is still the fact that non-native speakers make more mistakes.

Quote:And I live in Japan, surrounded by Japanese all the time, and have been doing so for the last 9 years. A child of 6 understands all the rules even if my vocabulary is better, and even if they stopped speaking Japanese now and picked it up again in 15 years, they would become better, faster because of the wonder that is L1.

That is very convincing. Now that it's put that way, the 'superiority' of L1 sounds more clear. But still, that's not something that is really important to an adult language learner ( and I don't claim that you said it was).

Quote:I'm claiming that for the average person, it's simply *better* to learn as a child as you get it without conscious effort, your pronunciation is almost assuredly better, and you won't make grammatical mistakes. It's just vocab after that.

Yes, if the goal is to learn Japanese to live a Japanese life in Japan, then it is better. I admit I'm nitpicking now, but I think that for many people, a big part of the joy in language learning is to learn about foreign ideas, customs, ways to think and write and so on. There's none of that for the native speaker!

Quote:I don't think we're really in disagreement, except for the part about biology

Not even for that part if we were not talking about learning efficiency as in time spent vs results gained.

Quote:Any child can learn without even trying if exposed to a language. And I mean ANY child no matter what their learning capacity is.
Almost any adult can learn *but only* if they actually put in effort and have the willpower to follow through, but I'm willing to argue that even then some adults just simply can't do it. They just don't have the ability or the memory power

I agree. So children learn to speak more or less in the same way the Japanese learn the kanji, in contrast to L2 learning and the Heisig method.
But the memory power thing is still a bit suspicious. It sounds like an excuse to me, I mean, a lot can be done to improve it as far as one is a "normal" person with no memory disorders and such stuff. Less alcohol, more sleep and exercise and so on.

tikka Wrote:Native speakers also make mistakes.

True, but mistakes made by native speakers are orders of magnitude less frequent and of a different nature to those made by L2 speakers.

The most common mistakes made by L2 speakers are ones that L1 speakers essentially never make. E.g. in English native speakers never make mistakes with articles a/an/the, or irregular verbs, or stress patterns, but these are the most common mistakes for L2 speakers.

tikka Wrote:Native speakers also make mistakes. Or do they in Japan, I dont really know about the Japanese.. But everywhere else they do. In some languages written mistakes are common, in others native speakers make a lot of spoken ones. The point is, they still remain as native speakers. If a westerner does the same mistake, he is only 'close to native'. So at least a part of the problem is psychological. Of course the biggest part is still the fact that non-native speakers make more mistakes.

Not necessarily. You could be a non-native speaker who makes fewer mistakes than most natives, and still be easily recognized as non-native...given away by the fact that you're speaking "by the book".

Natives almost never speak by what is defined as "correct" by an official or semi-official language authority. They will write that way, but not speak. They almost always make region specific "mistakes", they almost always use colloquialisms that are specific to their region, age, social background etc.

You can't even learn to copy it perfectly, as a non-native. If you're 40, you'd have to be aware of obscure idiosyncrasies that were around 35 years ago, when a native 40 year old was learning to speak. And you'd have to know how high school kids used to speak 24 years ago. And college kids 20 years ago. And you would, probably, have to know how working class people used to talk 15-20 years ago, since most people will work menial jobs while in school, or right after they finish school, where they will have encountered that way of speaking.

All this is stuff that you can't find in books, movies, shows, etc.. You also won't hear them all at your work, or in your circle of friends, because these are different ways of speaking that a native would encounter at different stages in his life.

So, just to sum it up, to be able to pass as a native, you would have to have grown up in the country. Otherwise, people will eventually catch on that you're not.

Stansfield123 Wrote:

tikka Wrote:Native speakers also make mistakes. Or do they in Japan, I dont really know about the Japanese.. But everywhere else they do. In some languages written mistakes are common, in others native speakers make a lot of spoken ones. The point is, they still remain as native speakers. If a westerner does the same mistake, he is only 'close to native'. So at least a part of the problem is psychological. Of course the biggest part is still the fact that non-native speakers make more mistakes.

Not necessarily. You could be a non-native speaker who makes fewer mistakes than most natives, and still be easily recognized as non-native...given away by the fact that you're speaking "by the book".

...

I know exactly what you mean and it drives me absolutely crazy when I hear (advanced+) Japanese people speak "by the book" in English and when I hear (advanced+) Japanese learners speak "by the book" in Japanese... but it's not everyone who does that. All of the people I know who are quite fluent in Japanese or English as second languages (myself included) no longer speak "by the book." I'm not saying it's easy but it's certainly not impossible.

tikka Wrote:So, if we forget about efficiency now.. Are you saying that someone who lives in, for example, Japan since 'day 1' becomes a better speaker than someone who moves there at the age of one or two or something? So that the difference in their speech would still be there decades later? So one would be a native speaker but the other would be only 'close to native'?

No, there will be no difference. You might be able to tell a person is different if they moved at age 10, though. I know a Chinese lady who has lived in Japan since she was in JHS, and she has a noticeable accent but has otherwise achieved a high level of fluency. Fluency and native are just different.

Quote:Native speakers also make mistakes. Or do they in Japan, I dont really know about the Japanese.. But everywhere else they do. In some languages written mistakes are common, in others native speakers make a lot of spoken ones. The point is, they still remain as native speakers. If a westerner does the same mistake, he is only 'close to native'. So at least a part of the problem is psychological. Of course the biggest part is still the fact that non-native speakers make more mistakes.

I disagree, but only slightly. You have to define what a mistake is. Because in the world of language, a group of natives using their native language in a way that doesn't follow the strict grammar rules of the language cannot be considered a mistake. It's how languages evolve and the rules change over time. However, a single L2 person is just making straight up mistakes. Of course, especially in the English speaking world, there are new forms of L2 which mimic L1 and the mistakes are not really mistakes because they are learned-mistakes and... oh boy it gets weird from here. Just look at the Philippians or India or any other country that has their own English quirks but was basically brought in as a 2nd language. They are following their own rules which technically makes them OK... F'd up! But awesome too. Language is cool.

Quote:That is very convincing. Now that it's put that way, the 'superiority' of L1 sounds more clear. But still, that's not something that is really important to an adult language learner ( and I don't claim that you said it was).

I think this is an important point. The original poster of the "I'm 25 so I have a disadvantage blah blah" isn't "wrong" per say, but it's a silly argument, which was probably what you were saying in the first place. Even if kids have it easy for learning a language, is that going to help you now? Complaining about your own situation will never help you. You have to do something about it. That poster *is* doing something, which is great, but "the grass is always greener" BS only holds you back. The grass *is* greener somewhere if you look around enough. But you've got pretty green grass if you have the time and resources to study, and you won't be getting any younger, so comparing yourself to those who have it easier isn't helpful.

But as a teacher of children, it's something I think about a lot, and witness the differences daily. My kindergarten aged kids are rockstars without even knowing why. My elementary school students who start English at age 6 are much better than those who started at 8, which are better than those who started at 10 or 12. Why? Lots of reasons but one is just how far their L1 has set and is blocking their brains from working in L2. If they have the motivation and learning-ability as an adult, they might not be different, but for the same effort, there is a noticeable difference in their ability to understand, retain, and use the rules of the language.

Quote:Yes, if the goal is to learn Japanese to live a Japanese life in Japan, then it is better. I admit I'm nitpicking now, but I think that for many people, a big part of the joy in language learning is to learn about foreign ideas, customs, ways to think and write and so on. There's none of that for the native speaker!

True and agreed. That's important and *why* we choose to learn a second language.

Quote:But the memory power thing is still a bit suspicious. It sounds like an excuse to me, I mean, a lot can be done to improve it as far as one is a "normal" person with no memory disorders and such stuff. Less alcohol, more sleep and exercise and so on.

Again, it's just a numbers thing. Any one person can improve their body/mind/bank book, but I think it's fair to say that the older you get, the harder it is for your efforts to take effect. Children get it without any extra effort. A 50 or 60 year old has to work their rear off to get it going. Effort vs Effect. I think kids win.

anotherjohn Wrote:The most common mistakes made by L2 speakers are ones that L1 speakers essentially never make. E.g. in English native speakers never make mistakes with articles a/an/the, or irregular verbs, or stress patterns, but these are the most common mistakes for L2 speakers.

Jawful Wrote:Because in the world of language, a group of natives using their native language in a way that doesn't follow the strict grammar rules of the language cannot be considered a mistake. It's how languages evolve and the rules change over time. However, a single L2 person is just making straight up mistakes

I guess that's true, but those mistakes can be corrected by studying, so the reason they are made is not the fact that one is speaking in his L2 which is somehow alien to his brain, it's because he hasn't studied enough.

At least that's what I think now, at the age of 25 when I have had no need to achieve a professional proficiency in any language. Most likely things will get much harder as I proceed to more advanced Japanese stuff, and I will change my mind about everything...

What do you think about the idea that studying more is not necessarily better?

I can`t remember things that I`ve studied that well. I forget them very quickly, even if I reviewed them several times over a week, if I don`t use it over the coming days, many, if not most are forgotten. There are words that don`t stick regardless of how many times I use them, or words I can only remember in a certain situation (though I`ve studied them countless of times, if I hear that word on TV, I just can`t remember what it means)

So I started thinking; maybe it`s not better (for me) to study 5 hours a day, maybe 2 hours with a a focus on reviewing is better. And then I can use that other time to study another language or take up another hobby. Our brains can`t remember an infinite number of words in a day, there`s a limit, so there must be a cut off point when studying more just becomes a waste of time, no?

What do you think? I just don`t want to waste my time, cramming in 35 words a day, when my limit might be 20 (I don`t really know my limit)

I think you may have to define what you mean by better. If by better, you mean efficiency, I feel that there probably is a optimal time that you spend studying Japanese every day. I think if you spend enough of your waking hours studying every day, Japanese will be on your mind during times that you aren't even studying, so that would tend to make your study time more efficient. But if you study too much, you will tend to get burnt out and not paying attention as much to what you are doing. So peak efficiency would be a balance of those two forces. However I believe the effect would be small.

But if by better, you mean that studying more will result in learning less, I can't see that being the case.

[Zgarbas]

It doesn't matter, so long as it's constant. I slowly worked my way up to about 3h/day, but at first it was more like 15 minutes/day. Burnout is your greatest enemy, and doing too much too fast can lead to that. It's good to force yourself a little, but don't overdo it. And yeah, that 'one day off' easily turns to weeks, so try to make it '5 minute or more' each day if you have to, so long as you know that on your toughest days (when you have a lot of classes or what not) you at least have time to do the bare minimum.

Constancy as a plus, and the possibility of burnout are universal values in learning. Other than that you're on your own, and you should try to experiment until you find what works for you. We can provide guidelines on what worked for us, but nothing is set in stone. Experiment. I think I was studying seriously for about 1 year before I worked up a system that worked best for me, which had gotten so contrieved that I don't think it makes much sense to an outside. That didn't nullify my previous year's progress in the least, I just saw it as a stepping stone.

Zgarbas Wrote:It doesn't matter, so long as it's constant. I slowly worked my way up to about 3h/day, but at first it was more like 15 minutes/day. Burnout is your greatest enemy, and doing too much too fast can lead to that. It's good to force yourself a little, but don't overdo it. And yeah, that 'one day off' easily turns to weeks, so try to make it '5 minute or more' each day if you have to, so long as you know that on your toughest days (when you have a lot of classes or what not) you at least have time to do the bare minimum.

I couldn't agree more. Keeping the train rolling and enjoying the process is much more important than small gains made by adjusting number of hours, methods, etc.