Do the speakers in the Core2k deck speak with a non-Tokyo accent? I ask because they pronounce any of the syllables starting with a "G", not as a "hard G" sound, but more like a softer "NYuh" sound.

In Eastern Japan, がぎぐげご tend to be nasalized. I'm not an expert by any means, but the core 2k is pretty close to a standard Tokyo accent. The one thing you have to keep in mind is that the textbook accent isn't a real accent. It's based off of the Tokyo accent, but its not a natural accent.

I personally don't hear that at all. They are Gs.

Where are you from kanjidude? What language(s) do you speak? The sounds you hear in a foreign language depends largely on how your ear is trained. This might be useful information to find others who feel the same about those sounds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_ph...#Weakening

Codexus Wrote:I personally don't hear that at all. They are Gs.

Where are you from kanjidude? What language(s) do you speak? The sounds you hear in a foreign language depends largely on how your ear is trained. This might be useful information to find others who feel the same about those sounds.

Nononono. They are totally different sounds.
To give you a concrete example of my perception, so you can search for the cards for yourself:

In Core2000, there's a clear difference between the g's in　留学してから私の世界が広がった and the g in 僕は学生です (the sentences for 留学 and 学生).
The g in 学生 sounds like g from "god". And g in 留学、が and 広がった sound like ng as in "fishing" (which could be argued is more an n than a g in my opinion).
Or an example from C6000:
in the card for 以外 the female speaker clearly says g as in "god. Whereas in the card for 眉 the male speaker says 彼は眉が濃いね. The が here sounds more like "nga" to me. "ng" as in "fishing"

I've been wondering this as well. Some G's in the Core 2k sound way more like n's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_ph...#Weakening

From the wikipedia article on the fenomenon it seems like there's a third sound that I have yet to actually notice myself, ɣ.

Quote:To summarize using the example of hage はげ 'baldness':

A-speakers: /haɡe/ > [haŋe] or [haɡe] or [haɣe]
B-speakers: /haɡe/ > [haŋe]
C-speakers: /haɡe/ > [haɡe] or [haɣe]

I'm pretty curious if anyone knows any specific example in core2k/core6k where this one occurs? I don't think I've heard it, because I would have noticed as this sound is in one of the languages I speak.

Northern_Lord Wrote:From the wikipedia article on the fenomenon it seems like there's a third sound that I have yet to actually notice myself, ɣ.

Quote:To summarize using the example of hage はげ 'baldness':

A-speakers: /haɡe/ > [haŋe] or [haɡe] or [haɣe]
B-speakers: /haɡe/ > [haŋe]
C-speakers: /haɡe/ > [haɡe] or [haɣe]

I'm pretty curious if anyone knows any specific example in core2k/core6k where this one occurs? I don't think I've heard it, because I would have noticed as this sound is in one of the languages I speak.

It's like a hard "g" sound, but a bit "raspy", a bit closer to German "ch" (as in "sprach", not as in "ich") or to French "r", but not really, because it's nowhere near as strong as these sounds. Hmmm... It's like a hard "g" that's lost it's hardness if that makes any sense?

Try gargling without any water in your mouth - it's pretty much that sound.

Northern_Lord Wrote:

Codexus Wrote:I personally don't hear that at all. They are Gs.

Where are you from kanjidude? What language(s) do you speak? The sounds you hear in a foreign language depends largely on how your ear is trained. This might be useful information to find others who feel the same about those sounds.

Nononono. They are totally different sounds.
To give you a concrete example of my perception, so you can search for the cards for yourself:

In Core2000, there's a clear difference between the g's in　留学してから私の世界が広がった and the g in 僕は学生です (the sentences for 留学 and 学生).
The g in 学生 sounds like g from "god". And g in 留学、が and 広がった sound like ng as in "fishing" (which could be argued is more an n than a g in my opinion).
Or an example from C6000:
in the card for 以外 the female speaker clearly says g as in "god. Whereas in the card for 眉 the male speaker says 彼は眉が濃いね. The が here sounds more like "nga" to me. "ng" as in "fishing"

This is a standard feature of Kanto/Tokyo pronunciation so you should be familiar with it even if you're not going to use it yourself.

Quote:The one thing you have to keep in mind is that the textbook accent isn't a real accent. It's based off of the Tokyo accent, but its not a natural accent.

That depends on your definition of "natural accent" and which textbook you're talking about. In that situation native speakers (unless specifically instructed otherwise) will tend to use a "formal speech" style of pronunciation which is perfectly natural in some situations, but it doesn't sound exactly like what two friends talking will say.

It may be that in some textbook audio the native speakers do use artificially articulated or slowed down speech they think will be easier for foreigners to understand, but I haven't heard this from recent textbook audio.

poblequadrat Wrote:

Northern_Lord Wrote:From the wikipedia article on the fenomenon it seems like there's a third sound that I have yet to actually notice myself, ɣ.

Quote:To summarize using the example of hage はげ 'baldness':

A-speakers: /haɡe/ > [haŋe] or [haɡe] or [haɣe]
B-speakers: /haɡe/ > [haŋe]
C-speakers: /haɡe/ > [haɡe] or [haɣe]

I'm pretty curious if anyone knows any specific example in core2k/core6k where this one occurs? I don't think I've heard it, because I would have noticed as this sound is in one of the languages I speak.

It's like a hard "g" sound, but a bit "raspy", a bit closer to German "ch" (as in "sprach", not as in "ich") or to French "r", but not really, because it's nowhere near as strong as these sounds. Hmmm... It's like a hard "g" that's lost it's hardness if that makes any sense?

Try gargling without any water in your mouth - it's pretty much that sound.

Hm. I can't say I can recall hearing it in Japanese yet. Maybe it's because I'm not paying attention. But your description makes sense and it really does sound like the sound I'm familiar with from this particular language that I mentioned.

@Yudantaiteki
Nice to know it's common in Tokyo. As I parrot all sentences in core6k, I am more than used to these to sounds. I use both ŋ and g.

yudantaiteki Wrote:

Quote:The one thing you have to keep in mind is that the textbook accent isn't a real accent. It's based off of the Tokyo accent, but its not a natural accent.

That depends on your definition of "natural accent" and which textbook you're talking about. In that situation native speakers (unless specifically instructed otherwise) will tend to use a "formal speech" style of pronunciation which is perfectly natural in some situations, but it doesn't sound exactly like what two friends talking will say.

It may be that in some textbook audio the native speakers do use artificially articulated or slowed down speech they think will be easier for foreigners to understand, but I haven't heard this from recent textbook audio.

When I say textbook accent, I should have been more clear, the 標準語/NHK accent is the one I was referring too. And by real, I mean that it doesn't exist in the wild, that it's not a natural accent.

Northern_Lord Wrote:Nononono. They are totally different sounds.
To give you a concrete example of my perception, so you can search for the cards for yourself:

I listened to those cards I don't hear any difference. All good Gs to me. (My mother tongue is french btw)

Codexus Wrote:

Northern_Lord Wrote:Nononono. They are totally different sounds.
To give you a concrete example of my perception, so you can search for the cards for yourself:

I listened to those cards I don't hear any difference. All good Gs to me. (My mother tongue is french btw)

Upon a quick check of french phonology, the velar nasal sound, the /ŋ/ in sing or /ŋaku/ in 留学 isnt native to French, and thnat could be why you have trouble hearing it.

I actually, did a slight experiment with one of these words using audacity, When I just isolated the /ŋi/ in i forget what word, native speakers told be that it was に, and when I expanded it to involve the rest of the word it was ぎ. Try something like that to see if you can hear the difference.

I’ve definitely noticed it in some of the core stuff．

Most predominantly when I was doing dictation mode on stuff I wasn't quite familiar with yet.

I was taught to pronounce both in college, and told that the nasal G (that sounds kind of like ng) was more common in standard dialect. I don't really pay attention to it these days, and I use the hard G for most things when I speak.