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Making my handwriting prettier?

#1
Ok, so, even in ローマ字 my handwriting has always been sloppy (though I've improved it considerably, even with my best writing most of it is illegible, judging by the "I'm glad you sent me a letter but what does it say" responses). But in Japanese, the illegibility of it goes over 9000. Most tests I had here so far came back with mentions about how I should really improve my handwriting. Usually people assume it's because I write quickly, but even if I take my time to draw out each line, it doesn't improve much. (if I write quickly, it all becomes squiggles)

Any writing tips out there?
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#2
Copy japanese people ? They don't write neat write neat either ( at least not to me) and people are able to read it. Learn to write messy in an acceptable way. I remember posted a letter they got from a japanese person and typed out what they wrote because handwriting is much different typed font japanese.

Isn't the answer obvious ? You do what you were made to do in elementary school with tracing those letters. Another option is to avoid the problem and type and print your letters or stick to email and just write for yourself
Edited: 2014-05-03, 8:21 pm
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#3
Take shodo (書道) classes or practice with an appropriate textbook. Considering that you live in a major Japanese city, there should be plenty of qualified shodo instructors nearby.
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#4
If you search for 美文字 on Amazon Japan, you'll find various workbooks for different scripts and whether you want to use a ballpoint pen or fude pen.
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#5
Shodo may be of limited help since it's oriented towards writing with a brush; there are books on ペン字 that are specifically about writing with pens and pencils.
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#6
I've been going through a ds game called U-can Penji Training DS on my android phone, with the help of an emulator, and it's pretty good! Really thorough.
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#7
yudantaiteki Wrote:Shodo may be of limited help since it's oriented towards writing with a brush; there are books on ペン字 that are specifically about writing with pens and pencils.
I agree. I wouldn't discourage anyone from trying shodo, but the basics are fairly brush-specific. After getting reasonably fluent with a brush, the advanced students in my group would start on pen, though.
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#8
Some indications are given on this site:
http://daigotorena.moo.jp/lesson/kaisho-menu.htm

Does anyone know a more comprehensive reference?
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#9
There's a book called Learn to Write Chinese Characters by Johan Björkstén that can be helpful; for example, you can start following these tips given in the PDF sample:

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Having looked at the history and aesthetics of characters, it is high time to start writing. Let's begin by discussing how to practice and then talk about how to form characters that are pleasing to the eye.

The Tools of Writing

The Pen

Use a fountain pen with a round tip. The special pens for calligraphy that are available in the United States, Europe, and elsewhere usually have flat tips and are therefore not suitable for writing Chinese characters. The best pens are the ones whose shaft covers nearly the entire tip, giving it firm support (fig. 17). This is the kind of fountain pen most common in China, and you should be able to find one in a good stationery store in your neighborhood as well.

The Ink

Chinese carbon ink (tànsù mòshuǐ) is the ideal choice if you can find it. Shanghai brand is the best. The ink is a deeper black than most inks used outside China, in keeping with the Chinese calligraphic tradition of "black characters on white paper." The high contrast makes it easy to spot errors. Also, it is almost waterproof after it dries. If you cannot find carbon ink, use any black ink.

The Paper

The paper should be crosshatched or marked off in squares, with each square big enough to contain a whole character. Squares makes it easier for the beginner to produce characters of uniform size. The paper should be glossy enough that the ink dries with sharp edges and does not run. Never put the paper directly on a hard table when writing-satisfactory strokes are extremely difficult to produce. Instead, put fifteen to twenty layers of soft paper (ideally the tissuelike paper used for wiping camera lenses) under the sheet you are writing on.


How to Practice

The first thing to do with any new character is to carefully memorize the stroke order. Simple rules govern the order in which the strokes that make up a character must be written. We will wait a little before learning these rules, for they require that we know the basic strokes. Still, it is very important to write with the correct stroke order, so pay careful attention to the order in what follows.

The tried and true method for practicing writing is to copy the characters of an accomplished calligrapher. While you are unsure of your technique, you may want to put a thin, transparent sheet of paper over the characters you are copying and trace them with your pen. Once you understand the rudiments, you should copy by first examining the model and then writing your character in exactly the same way. You should not look at one stroke at a time, write it, consider the next stroke, write it, and so on. Instead, you should look at the whole character, analyze its structure, turn your head away, and not look at the model character again until you have written all the strokes. When you have completed your character, you should compare it with the model, find out what mistakes you made, and try again. This is the only way to fix the picture of the character firmly in your mind and make rapid progress.

The principle behind this method of practicing has its roots deep in the Chinese aesthetic tradition. Chinese artists are expected to see the whole painting with their inner eye before beginning to work; then they simply paint what they see. This approach is called having a bamboo completed in your chest. Chinese watercolors and calligraphic works are often executed in a very short time-the creative work is done before the artist touches the brush.

It is taboo to go back and alter a character while writing. If a stroke fails, begin the whole character over again.

Practice only three or four different characters a day, at least to begin with. Otherwise, you do not have time to learn them thoroughly enough, and you grow too tired to analyze what you are doing right and what you are doing wrong. You learn the characters in a sloppy way and do not really improve your writing.

Write each character at least a hundred times.

Save everything you write and date the papers. Just as with all learning, there will be times when you do not feel as though you are making any progress. It can be heartening to look at the characters that you wrote a month or two earlier. You will be surprised at the difference.

Sit correctly at a desk or table that is not too high. You should be able to rest your arms comfortably on the tabletop. Put the paper straight in front of you and do not slant it too much. Many learners slant the paper and bend over when writing. Don't do either when you write in Chinese. Hold the pen between thumb and forefinger, letting it rest gently on your curved middle finger (fig. 17). The tip of the pen should point forward on the paper and should form a forty-five-degree angle with it. Sit back in the chair so the chairback supports your lower back as much as possible. Be as upright as possible without tensing your back and shoulders. (You should sit this way when writing in English as well.)

Try to practice on a daily basis. It is much better to practice for fifteen minutes every day than not to practice for a while and then suddenly sit for hours on end at the writing table.

At the end of this book there are models for a hundred or so of the most common characters. Later you may choose models that you think look good. Copying characters written with a brush is fine, but you must catch the spirit of the characters rather than copying them directly, for a fountain pen can never reproduce the thick strokes of a writing brush.
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Then the book continues with many examples and exercises and so on.
Edited: 2014-05-04, 4:28 am
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#10
yudantaiteki Wrote:Shodo may be of limited help since it's oriented towards writing with a brush; there are books on ペン字 that are specifically about writing with pens and pencils.
This is true. However, a good shodo teacher is bound to have impressive penji and should be able to give helpful guidance. As another poster mentioned, they often teach penji at shodo studios. When it comes to manual skills like handwriting, cooking, or sports, nothing beats a live instructor.

It's also worth mentioning that the principles regarding how the characters should look are the same for both shodo and penji. Of course, the techniques are different since the instruments are different. But every person I've met who has good shodo skills has also had incredible penji. I can't say with confidence whether their shodo skills transfer to their penji or they deliberately practiced penji as well. Nonetheless, you can probably learn both skills at the same time from the same instructor for the same price.
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#11
Zgarbas Wrote:Any writing tips out there?
When one is a little child, they teach you to write by making you draw the letters over a model made by dotted lines.

The closer that you can get with kanji on your own would be looking for a nice font you'd like to use as model, and printing the kanji you want to practice on that font, in a rather light shade of gray. Then you can trace the kanji over the printed version.

You could make a squared design with the target kanji written in some squares, and some blank squares to practice writing "on your own", so to speak.
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#12
Tadashii Kanji KakiTori-kun (正しい漢字かきとりくん) for the DS is pretty good for this; the newer version (can't remember the subtitle, but it has to do with Kanken) is especially good, because it will tell you what is wrong with what you've written.
It's not quite the same as writing on paper, but it responds well and, I've found, is quite helpful. If you use it, you might try writing on paper soon after writing in the game to ensure that the writing technique you use on the screen transfers to paper.

Other than that, all I can think of are hand-cramp inducing sessions of meticulous writing until what you produce looks good. Personally though, I'm just happy if mine is legible; my handwriting in English is terrible too (print and cursive) unless I really think about it. It's really bad when I have to letter something; it looks pretty good when I'm done (and I don't cheat with stencils), but it takes about four times as long.
It's the same with Japanese; it looks great when I take my time, but terrible (though good enough) if I try to write at normal speed.
Edited: 2014-05-05, 2:01 am
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#13
But is it really worth your time? It's going to take a lot of practice to get significant results. How much handwriting do you actually do?

I can't remember the last time I wrote anything longer than a few lines in a form. A full page of text? probably over 20 years ago. (in "romaji", I don't live in Japan so except for kanji practice I don't write in Japanese at all)
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#14
The last time I wrote more than a page was... last week, during essay-writing class. Non-class related, about 2 weeks ago when I wrote a letter. I don't really see how I could go through college without handwriting.

Things that require handwriting: taking notes (classes are obvious, but there is also writing down an address, leaving someone a note, writing down a reminder...), letter and postcard writing, writing essays, exams, filling out forms.

Re: Shodo. Wouldn't that make it even harder to read? I've always considered shodo a completely different type of writing in itself.

Quote:When one is a little child, they teach you to write by making you draw the letters over a model made by dotted lines.
That's what I'm kind of afraid of. Like I said, my previous writing experience with the latin alphabet is not encouraging >.< I never could write in a legible manner. I can also barely read other people's handwriting in the latin alphabet. I've done the hiragana dotted lines when I was learning it, but as soon as I'm on my own it goes crazy.

Though the tracing over a font does sound interesting. I think I might try it.

Quote:Copy japanese people ? They don't write neat write neat either
Hilariously enough, I have one teacher who looked at my writing and commented on how it's almost exactly like hers. We had a talk about how normally it's crazy hard to read, but since hers is just as ugly it's ok. It was nice <3. I also tended to favor students who shared my type ugly handwriting when correcting their papers, but I'm sure their other teachers weren't as thrilled.
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#15
Zgarbas Wrote:The last time I wrote more than a page was... last week, during essay-writing class. Non-class related, about 2 weeks ago when I wrote a letter. I don't really see how I could go through college without handwriting.
With a laptop and a printer? If they insist on stuff being handwritten (there's no logical reason outside of exams, is there?), maybe you could get a doctor's note about your handwriting being chronically illegible?

(I had one of those for my matriculation exam. The doctor said my handwriting had no coherent style and that it'd take far too much effort (years) to fix it to be worth bothering).
Edited: 2014-05-05, 11:47 am
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#16
To practice writing I write every sentence I add into Anki every single day.

It's 33 sentences per day and I easily make them fit into a page (I started on graph paper now I write vertically 'rotating' the page).

I started early September last year: click1
And here's my current writing: click2

Today it takes 30 minutes circa to write an entire page.
Edited: 2014-05-05, 2:20 pm
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#17
Zgarbas Wrote:Re: Shodo. Wouldn't that make it even harder to read? I've always considered shodo a completely different type of writing in itself.
I think you have the 草書 style in mind. Learning the basics of shodo should immediately improve your handwriting, but first let me give some background.

There are generally three styles of shodo: (1) 楷書体 (2) 行書体 (3) 草書体. You can see examples of them here, beginning with 楷書体 on the right and ending with 草書体 on the left. Any adult Japanese should have no problem reading 行書体, and educated/older people tend to write in that style (everyone can read/write 楷書体 since that's what's taught in school, but 草書体 proficiency is limited to calligraphers and literary types).

Anyhow, the first thing you learn in shodo is how to write each stroke, starting with the horizontal stroke used in 一. Each kind of stroke is supposed to be written in a specific way, e.g. broader/narrower at certain parts. All of these principles apply to handwriting as well, and so exposure to them should improve your handwriting right away. The only difference is that you use different techniques to achieve the same effect with a pen rather than a brush.

Another bonus is that it's much faster to write in 行書体 than 楷書体. Of course, 草書体 is the fastest, but writing in that style should be avoided unless you're writing for personal use or you know the intended audience can read it.

Edit: there are websites for several ペン字 classes if you search "ペン字教室 名古屋"
Edited: 2014-05-05, 3:35 pm
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#18
sunehiro Wrote:To practice writing I write every sentence I add into Anki every single day.

It's 33 sentences per day and I easily make them fit into a page (I started on graph paper now I write vertically 'rotating' the page).

I started early September last year: click1
And here's my current writing: click2

Today it takes 30 minutes circa to write an entire page.
I like the improvement. It goes from childish to experienced. It's not neater or anything. It seems more lazy and more efficient. My handwriting changed like that too. It's messy in English and in japanese. I don't do anything like you do but just wrting japanese over time over whatever opportunities ( usually I'm just in the mood to write something like lang-8 entry draft or something. I gotta use my rtk and kakitori knowledge in real life to not forget it. I do srs but half the time I'm not even writing it. ). I'm not into writing in general so changing the language japanese doesn't make me feel more feel inclined... So I don't care about handwriting plus i love being lazy and messy. It's just my nature
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#19
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#20
What fonts do you people recommend to use as a model for improving your handwriting?
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#21
I use "EPSON 教科書体", which is a 楷書 font - the kind of font that you use in elementary school / actually write (when writing neatly) / see in RTK. Just don't use 明朝体 or something for kanji.

For hiragana and katakana it seems like a lot of fonts do pretty well.

Also, very important is that you learn how to write a kanji neatly and match to the model font in the square before you speed up to a more "free style" writing. This, to some extent, let's you get used to the proportions of the kanji primitives that make up a single kanji so that they still look pretty neat when you write fast. Evenly sized kanji makes a huge difference in aesthetics.

One more thing, you can blow up the kanji and write it big, dividing the square with dotted lines to help you locate where each stroke should be. Some of the simplest kanji like 子 take quite a bit of work to get the stroke right in terms of curviness, length, etc.
Edited: 2014-05-06, 1:06 am
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#22
I recommend you writing on 原稿用紙. Start out slowly, it is very important to concentrate on forming your characters properly at first.

I have a vocabulary deck where I practice handwriting (and remembering vocab). Here's the card layout for it:

Front:

Word in 仮名 -- sentence in 仮名
+ sound clip for the whole sentence

Back:

Word in 漢字 with 振り仮名 -- Meaning of word in first language
Sentence in 漢字 without 振り仮名 -- Meaning of sentence in first language

I started this deck from core10k and then gradually added new cards from other sources (subs2srs ftw).

Here's the 原稿用紙 I use and here's my sheet from this morning.

I've been practicing for 3 and a half years and it takes about 30 minutes a day depending on the number of due words. I know it's not very neat but it's more or less consistent even at high speed, and I can write on blank paper too because I'm really used to writing in squares.
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#23
I found this an interesting read
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#24
Vempele Wrote:With a laptop and a printer? If they insist on stuff being handwritten (there's no logical reason outside of exams, is there?), maybe you could get a doctor's note about your handwriting being chronically illegible?

(I had one of those for my matriculation exam. The doctor said my handwriting had no coherent style and that it'd take far too much effort (years) to fix it to be worth bothering).
I've never heard about such a note. Fascinating that such a thing exists.
I think we have about 4-5 sheets of paper to fill in that I have to hand in at the end of the class each week. Unless I bring a printer to class, that's not really doable. The laptop thing might be do-able after the language class is done, but even outside the handout-based classes, I've not seen anyone bring a laptop to class here.

@sunehiro: That's so cool Big Grin.
@vileru: That was really informative, thanks. 行書体is is what what one of our teachers uses, I had wondered whether it is him writing really ugly or us being silly gaijin (I have to pay extra attention to what he says since I can't read the whiteboard for the life of me >.<).

Quote:I'm surprised noone really seems to had told you anything about your handwriting when you were in Romania.
Aside from teachers complaining about my handwriting since 1st grade you mean? Tongue.

I didn't write much Japanese in class. My teacher's seen maybe... 15 sentences written by me in total? She'd often use ugly handwriting as an excuse to fail students (the comma on the か isn't perfect so I'll not give you any points on your sentence), and she did pull that one on me a few times, but whether your handwriting was actually ugly or not was irrelevant. I went to a really shitty college

@gombost: This is really random but I like your るs. Keeping the lines on きs and さs is something our teacher told us to avoid, though. 超子供っぽいから。

@ChaoChai: it was, but I do keep to stroke order and (usually) proportion. it just tends to get heavily jumbled up. Though I do have a bad habits of not finishing hooks properly, which I really need to fix.

As for fonts... would it be a bad idea to use a rounded one? I had this one teacher who used a rounded font and I always found them amazing. Would that be too 子供っぽい?
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#25
Zgarbas Wrote:As for fonts... would it be a bad idea to use a rounded one? I had this one teacher who used a rounded font and I always found them amazing. Would that be too 子供っぽい?
Unfortunately, yes, rounded fonts, or 丸文字, are considered childish. However, that doesn't mean you can't write that way if you like it.

Also, I should add that you'll also see immediate results by using a good pen. I usually only write in cursive when I write in English mostly because it's faster, but also because I don't have to lift the pen over and over again when I use a ballpoint pen. Ballpoint pens don't write smoothly, and so the more you lift the pen the more likely you won't get a smooth line. You have to lift the pen even more when writing Japanese, so having a good pen is all the more important.

If you're going to use a ballpoint, then use one that requires little pressure and has a smooth ink flow. Unsurprisingly, Japanese pen brands tend to emphasize those qualities. (Japanese pens also tend to be much lighter than their Western counterparts. All of these qualities are intentional. Japanese pens are designed to mimic the experience of writing with a brush).

If you want something really great to write with, then get a fountain pen. No, they're not as expensive as you think. Pilot even sells them in packs. Sailor and Nakaya probably make the best Japanese fountain pens (in the case of Nakaya, I find the term "pen" less appropriate than "work of art"), but it's best to try a few cheap ones so you can know what qualities you like in a pen before even considering those brands.

If this sounds interesting to you, then find a good pen or stationery store with knowledgable staff, and they should be able to get you started with what you need. A little research online beforehand will help out too. You should be able to try out pens until you find one you like or you decide fountain pens aren't for you.
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