There is a sizable Western community of Japanese media consumers who demand 100% accuracy from the English translations. Any nuance that was in the original Japanese sentence must be translated into English faithfully with no censorship nor omissions. The resulting experience must be exactly the same in Japanese, except in the English language.

Does there exist similar sentiment in Japan of English works that are translated into Japanese?

One obstacle I see is swear words.

For example, if the word is kuso, this is translated into English as shit, crap, damn, etc. Whatever the translator feels like.

But every swear word in English is tranlated into Japanese as kuso or chikusho.

This is because the diversity of profanity is a large part of Western culture. one that is not easily replicated into Japanese, whose version of profanity is a bit different, which uses things like politeness (or lack of) levels instead.

What are some examples of English to Japanese translations that you found disappointing?

Influenced by Steven Pinker on the topic long before learning Japanese, I used to think that e.g. 'f*ck' was evidence of some special versatility of the English language that set it apart from other languages.

Having learnt Japanese however I now realise that the reason it has no equivalent of 'f*ck' is because it simply isn't needed.

I haven't read any translated works, but I imagine that when they curse, they use the original English, depending on the story. As you would know if you read a lot of manga, Westerners (especially people from the US) curse every other sentence, or every sentence if they're gangsters.

Even Japanese manga delinquents are getting into it, giving two middle fingers and saying 'f*ck you' for dramatic effect when faced with zombie-like-new-species worshiping freaks.

Honestly though, I don't know. I imagine that it just depends on what kind of story or character it is, as to how they determine the localized line. If the character localizes better by changing the line (i.e. they aren't a delinquent or action movie hero), then they probably change it.

anotherjohn Wrote:Influenced by Steven Pinker on the topic long before learning Japanese, I used to think that e.g. 'f*ck' was evidence of some special versatility of the English language that set it apart from other languages.

Having learnt Japanese however I now realise that the reason it has no equivalent of 'f*ck' is because it simply isn't needed.

Can you elaborate on that?
I've seen 'f*ck off' translated to 'ふざけない' ... and that's really not the same thing at all. I'm not sure how to express the same idea in Japanese. Same with a lot of other swearing. To me it seems that the two languages are set fairly far apart in this particular area.

(edit: ... is a language filter really necessary here? I think we're all adults...)

There is a problem with conceiving translation as being about replacing one word with another word (one lexical unit with another lexical unit). This happens, of course, all the time in translation. But it is, in effect, an "accident" (something that was not innately necessary but just available in a particular incidence) when it happens. If it doesn't happen (i.e. when a phrase is used to translate a word) a translation has still taken place.

Aikynaro Wrote:Can you elaborate on that?
I've seen 'f*ck off' translated to 'ふざけない' ... and that's really not the same thing at all. I'm not sure how to express the same idea in Japanese. Same with a lot of other swearing. To me it seems that the two languages are set fairly far apart in this particular area.

(edit: ... is a language filter really necessary here? I think we're all adults...)

f＊ck off = あっち行け

LOL you're right, what a silly filter. This is not a WOW forum, why is it needed?

andikaze Wrote:

Aikynaro Wrote:Can you elaborate on that?
I've seen 'f*ck off' translated to 'ふざけない' ... and that's really not the same thing at all. I'm not sure how to express the same idea in Japanese. Same with a lot of other swearing. To me it seems that the two languages are set fairly far apart in this particular area.

(edit: ... is a language filter really necessary here? I think we're all adults...)

f＊ck off = あっち行け

Sure, but that's not the same thing either. It lacks the contempt and depending on the context doesn't work at all - how would you translate something like: 'Hey mate, why don't you just f*ck off?' I'm no expert, but I don't think I've come across a Japanese equivalent that would carry the same feeling. Or maybe it's possible, but you'd be descending into gangster talk?
Just the feeling I have, anyway. I've been curious about this lately after watching a brief verbal argument between a taxi driver and a bus driver, which was definitely very hostile but maybe lacking the fire(?) such an exchange would have in English.

It depends on so much, you know. The context, the mood, the degree of emotion. I can picture it as おい、キサマ、あっち行け or as ほっとけよ. Japanese and English are not 1:1 translatable, but the same thing can be said in both languages, and the mission is not to have it "word by word" but to convey the message.

sholum Wrote:Even Japanese manga delinquents are getting into it, giving two middle fingers and saying 'f*ck you' for dramatic effect when faced with zombie-like-new-species worshiping freaks.

Actually I've watched Chinese movies where even though the characters aren't in a Western country nor speak English, they still say "***** you" so obviously the word "*****", even though it is a foreign word, is popular enough that non-English speaking audiences understand what it means.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:

sholum Wrote:Even Japanese manga delinquents are getting into it, giving two middle fingers and saying 'f*ck you' for dramatic effect when faced with zombie-like-new-species worshiping freaks.

Actually I've watched Chinese movies where even though the characters aren't in a Western country nor speak English, they still say "***** you" so obviously the word "*****", even though it is a foreign word, is popular enough that non-English speaking audiences understand what it means.

I'm trying to find the contradiction here, but not doing so well.

That was basically my point though: several English swears seem to be well recognized, but it seems that Japanese authors (and presumably translators) think that it sounds weird for most character types to use English swears all the time (which it does), which is why I said the translation would probably be dependent on the character and the situation.

I specifically mentioned delinquents and action hero types, because those are the only two character types I've seen use English oaths in Japanese works. I'm sure there are other examples, but I'm not that well read in Japanese yet.

The only time I can think of seeing English swear words as-is were comics set in America (and that used other English words and phrases).

If you've seen Kill Bill there was a ファック野郎 in there (does Japanese swearing need censoring?) during Oren Ishii's 'appointed head of the yakuza' speech as translated by Sophie: 「このファック野郎と同じようにね」 I don't know how common that is in general, though. The only other that I've seen is ビッチ (which has its own Wikipedia article: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%93%E...3%E3%83%81 ).

No, professional translators of English-Japanese do not try to include a curse word in their translation just because there was one in English. The goal of a good translation is for the viewer/reader to get the same experience, to have the characters preserve their personality, and to have statements carry the same force. Translating English curses into Japanese curses like くそ is an absurd way to do that because Japan has a completely different take on curse words, and because Japanese curses and English curses do not overlap in meaning.

So, for example, a character that curses a lot in an English source may be translated to the Japanese to speak similar to someone with a rough Osakan accent, or perhaps that of a Tokyo manual laborer or a yakuza punk. It is meant to tell us about the character in the same way cursing does in English.

Individual statements that use curses in English should be judged on how forceful they are, and the Japanese equivalent of that (in terms of forcefulness) should be given whether it has curses or not.

Just a reminder that this thread is supposed to be about English entertainment works that have been translated into Japanese disappointedly/inaccurately and whether there exists E-to-J translations purists who are vocal about these non-optimum E-to-J translations. The same way when J-to-E translation purists complain when a translatoy r takes too much liberties.

My point about translating English profanities into Japanese was meant to be a minor example of how things might get lost in E-to-J translation.

sholum Wrote:

qwertyytrewq Wrote:

sholum Wrote:Even Japanese manga delinquents are getting into it, giving two middle fingers and saying 'f*ck you' for dramatic effect when faced with zombie-like-new-species worshiping freaks.

Actually I've watched Chinese movies where even though the characters aren't in a Western country nor speak English, they still say "***** you" so obviously the word "*****", even though it is a foreign word, is popular enough that non-English speaking audiences understand what it means.

I'm trying to find the contradiction here, but not doing so well.

That's cause you're trying to find something that isn't there.

[s0apgun]

Aikynaro Wrote:

anotherjohn Wrote:Influenced by Steven Pinker on the topic long before learning Japanese, I used to think that e.g. 'f*ck' was evidence of some special versatility of the English language that set it apart from other languages.

Having learnt Japanese however I now realise that the reason it has no equivalent of 'f*ck' is because it simply isn't needed.

Can you elaborate on that?
I've seen 'f*ck off' translated to 'ふざけない' ... and that's really not the same thing at all. I'm not sure how to express the same idea in Japanese. Same with a lot of other swearing. To me it seems that the two languages are set fairly far apart in this particular area.

(edit: ... is a language filter really necessary here? I think we're all adults...)

ふざけない probably closer to don't ***** with me

Kind of like how american's will say i'll kick your ass

Its more commonly said as ふざけるな or ふざけんなよ and slangier yet ざけんなよ if you want to sound like a real tough guy. Add in some gutteral yelling and tongue rolling and you're well on your way to sounding like a osaka yakuza badass.

[Zgarbas]

It's not just about *having* swear words so much as how you use them. Romanian is renowned for its versatility in curses (cuss words invove anything from dead mother's ancestors to the gods on the cross of the grandfater who raised you), but you won't see one on TV since they are simply not used in a public space. Usually they are creatively avoided and replaced with PG insults. The cultural environment of the translation is more important than the cultural environment of the target language.

That being said, anime fansub's cultural environment contains people who *like* Japanese culture, tend to think of it as untranslatable, and enjoy learning new terms. If anything, the untranslated terms are there for the sake of the otakus watching them, not for the sake of the Japanese meaning being properly transmitted.
Also laziness. It is much easier to leave a term untranslated than to bother finding a proper equivalent.

Zgarbas Wrote:It's not just about *having* swear words so much as how you use them. Romanian is renowned for its versatility in curses (cuss words invove anything from dead mother's ancestors to the gods on the cross of the grandfater who raised you), but you won't see one on TV since they are simply not used in a public space. Usually they are creatively avoided and replaced with PG insults. The cultural environment of the translation is more important than the cultural environment of the target language.

It's the same with Russian, except our stronger curses tend to have more to do with bodily functions than with religion (in fact, the religious swear words are the PG insults used in movies instead of the words people curse with in real life). There's some discussion right now about allowing proper Russian swearing in movies screened at film festivals, but it'll probably be decades until mainstream Hollywood movies get dubbed with swear words 100% equivalent to the original English ones. In fact, there is a small community of "fandubbers" in Russia dedicated to dubbing Hollywood movies with perfectly natural Russian swearing. Their efforts are appreciated by a very small niche.

Zgarbas Wrote:That being said, anime fansub's cultural environment contains people who *like* Japanese culture, tend to think of it as untranslatable, and enjoy learning new terms. If anything, the untranslated terms are there for the sake of the otakus watching them, not for the sake of the Japanese meaning being properly transmitted.

As someone who used to be a connoisseur of fansubbed anime before becoming a learner of Japanese, I concur. Although if the first fandub I ever watched was like this, I don't think I would have stuck around for long

albion Wrote:The only time I can think of seeing English swear words as-is were comics set in America (and that used other English words and phrases) .

[Zgarbas]

vonPeterhof Wrote:As someone who used to be a connoisseur of fansubbed anime before becoming a learner of Japanese, I concur. Although if the first fandub I ever watched was like this, I don't think I would have stuck around for long

I think that one is actually an exception, imho. As in, I think it is ok to leave cultural terms related to Shinto/Buddhist religion or local culture untranslated (fairly sure the terms are made up in Gintama but still), though some people tend to overdo it, and the thin line between untranslateable and elitism is blurry. We have this problem with translated books. I am fairly sure that many Japanese books which have been translated into Romanian are illegible to people who don't know Japanese as the translators tend to be elitist Japanologists who not only leave many terms untranslated, but they often neglect to leave footnotes explaining them. Sometimes they compromise with something like "the chashitsu tea room", but without the footnote/japanese knowledge you don't know that the term is just superfluously left in.

Also, in that particular case... Fairly sure the bogus terms are meant to confuse the viewer. Gintama often does that

This just popped up in core10000: 往⽣ おうじょう しなさい! ***** you!