I have been studying Japanese for a long time but boy do I still struggle mightily with having a solid grasp on the usage of these two particles. The more I learn about them the more they confuse me.

It made me wonder... maybe it has to do with the fact that almost all of my study is done on isolated and unrelated sentences from various teaching materials (like KO2001). And that maybe the difference in usage between は and が is much starker when they are surrounded by their full context?

Does this make sense? My main way of trying to study particles has always been to see if I understand them whenever I see one being used. But this is hard for は and が. For instance how do you tell if information is new, emphasized, contrasted, etc, when you don't have any other context? And these seem to be very important in determining which particle to use.

A lot of their usage is almost idiomatic, so there are definitely cases where you absolutely use one or the other.

But what I found most helpful in understanding は/ が was reading that one text (book?) by Jay Rubin, Making Sense of Japanese. In a nutshell (this is simplifying a lot), he describes は as "making a comment about something". Or in other words, it's generally used to raise a "topic" (i.e. a thing), and then make a subsequent comment about it. The usual implication is that the emphasis, where there is one, is directed on the comment made, rather than the thing itself.

コーヒーは好きです。 I like coffee. (Implication: As for [the topic of] coffee, I like it.).

On the other hand, が marks the actor (aka 'subject') in a phrase, and the emphasis is on the actor rather than the action, thing or consequence that follows.

コーヒーが好きです。 I like coffee. (Implication: Coffee is what I like.)

I feel this is the key difference between the two particles - one raises a topic and makes a comment about it, with the emphasis on the comment, and the other marks the 'actor' in a phrase and the emphasis is more on this actor rather than what follows.

This also leads to many idiomatic uses as I mentioned before, for example, when introducing new actors or characters for which there is no prior context, you use が。

昔、ある町に魔女がいた。

Whereas you'd use は when there is already prior context for something and you want to make a comment or statement about it.

Anyway, that is my general understanding but it's only one aspect of their usage I guess. At least, it was my key takeaway I got from reading Jay Rubin's book about particles.

trumpet Wrote:I have been studying Japanese for a long time but boy do I still struggle mightily with having a solid grasp on the usage of these two particles. The more I learn about them the more they confuse me.

It made me wonder... maybe it has to do with the fact that almost all of my study is done on isolated and unrelated sentences from various teaching materials (like KO2001). And that maybe the difference in usage between は and が is much starker when they are surrounded by their full context?

Does this make sense? My main way of trying to study particles has always been to see if I understand them whenever I see one being used. But this is hard for は and が. For instance how do you tell if information is new, emphasized, contrasted, etc, when you don't have any other context? And these seem to be very important in determining which particle to use.

Well, if there is no context you have to infer it from the particles themselves. In producing sentences yourself, it depends on what you want to say.

The textbook lesson is that は is used when something isn't already the topic, but is known to both speakers; and が when something isn't already the subject, and is unknown to at least one of the speakers. This is why, for example, interrogative words always are followed by が: we don't know about them. So, you're walking on the street and you see a stray cat, you say "there's a (random) cat", and in Japanese you'd introduce it with が. Once you say this, the cat is known, so when you've already walked past the street and realise it was your neighbour's cat, you say "the cat (we know of) is my neighbour's!", and in Japanese you introduce it with は.

However, as Jay Rubin points out, beyond this, は has the effect of putting emphasis on both the topic and what follows it: "I don't know about the rest, but as for me..." (the tension builds up) "I... I went to KFC last night!!". が, on the other side, puts the emphasis on the subject that precedes it: "It is ME who went to KFC last night." This is why on relative clauses が is often replaced by の: there's no point in emphasising the subject so much.

Guoguodi: I'm not sure, but I think コーヒーは好き is actually incorrect because with adjectives expressing feelings, dislikes, etc. the topic is always the person who feels something about the subject. I think it's a lot like Rubin's article on わかる: "As for me, coffee suki's". I'm not sure I'm right, though.

Regarding コーヒーは好き. It is not incorrect to use は with 好き sometimes, but using が with 好き is common like you said.
However, in questions like コーヒーは好きですか？ and when contrasting things like コーヒーは好きだけど、カフェインはとりたくない, は is often used.

Zorlee Wrote:Regarding コーヒーは好き. It is not incorrect to use は with 好き sometimes, but using が with 好き is common like you said.
However, in questions like コーヒーは好きですか？ and when contrasting things like コーヒーは好きだけど、カフェインはとりたくない, は is often used.

Yeah, that's right. It doesn't sound natural if in reply to コーヒーは好きですか？ you use が, as the context/topic is already coffee. Using が would seem like you're answering a different question (i.e. what sort of drink do you like? コーヒーが好きです).

.

Arupan Wrote:>>OP
Don't worry. There seem to be people out there who still can't use them properly even after learning the language for 10+ years

This. Don't worry. Read up on them every now and then and then just let go. Get a feel for them. That's what I do anyway

Arupan Wrote:>>OP
Don't worry. There seem to be people out there who still can't use them properly even after learning the language for 10+ years

For what its worth, many English learners have trouble grasping the use of A/The, so I like to think that struggling with は・が isn't such a strange thing comparatively.

The Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar explains が　really well. I've basically summed up the main points and added an example from the book.

は is used to mark the topic and is often confused with が because it often replaces が　and appears to be a subject marker. When the topic marker （は） is being used it must be something the hearer and speaker can identify with; whether it was previously mentioned, can be identified with the five senses or it is a proper or generic noun.

が　marks the subject when it is first introduced, and はis used when talking about the subject that has already been introduced.
昔々おじいさんが住んでいました。おじいさんはとても貧乏でした。
Once upon a time there lived an old man. The old man was very poor.

は is used when the subject is a topic or contrasted element
ex: ステーキはおいしいです。　　The steak is good (but other food is not)/ (I don't know about the other food but) the steak is good.
Whereas ステーキがおいしいです。　would mean　"Steak is good."

Words like だれ、なに　and　どこ　are never topics and are always marked with が。

Sometimes element which are considered direct objects are presented as subjects and are marked by が.
僕はスポーツカーが欲しい。

が can also be used to connect two sentences.
パーティーをしますが来ませんか。

[EDIT] Typo

How far have you come in Core2000? And for how long have you been learning?

I always had trouble with は and が, but about 1700 words through K2000 I started to get the meaning. At that point I had studied Japanese (on my spare time, so ~45min/day) for 1.7 years.

For me it was hearing thousands of sentences that did it. They suddenly made much more sense, and I have realized that in many situations they are really similar to "a" and "the".

Northern_Lord Wrote:For me it was hearing thousands of sentences that did it. They suddenly made much more sense, and I have realized that in many situations they are really similar to "a" and "the".

A/The are a similar case, but not exact. If you had a question like "How do I get to Hawaii?" and answered it with "Take the plane there." that would be a little strange because if you never talked about A particular plane prior it would seem off. But then you get sentences like "I am going to THE USA." I'm not a linguist so I'm not exactly sure that use of "the" is the same but it trips so many students up and then you get them using it on other stuff that doesn't make sense, "I'm going to THE Hawaii."

These nuances make me think that は・が isn't as cut and dry as many would think. Maybe the rule of thumb helps on 80% of cases, but pragmatics has to fill in the other 20%. Least thats how I've come to look at it, and its really hard because I personally don't pay attention to how は・が get used in most cases in conversation, they just slip past. Way easier to analyze in written material.

vix86 Wrote:

Northern_Lord Wrote:For me it was hearing thousands of sentences that did it. They suddenly made much more sense, and I have realized that in many situations they are really similar to "a" and "the".

A/The are a similar case, but not exact. If you had a question like "How do I get to Hawaii?" and answered it with "Take the plane there." that would be a little strange because if you never talked about A particular plane prior it would seem off. But then you get sentences like "I am going to THE USA." I'm not a linguist so I'm not exactly sure that use of "the" is the same but it trips so many students up and then you get them using it on other stuff that doesn't make sense, "I'm going to THE Hawaii."

These nuances make me think that は・が isn't as cut and dry as many would think. Maybe the rule of thumb helps on 80% of cases, but pragmatics has to fill in the other 20%. Least thats how I've come to look at it, and its really hard because I personally don't pay attention to how は・が get used in most cases in conversation, they just slip past. Way easier to analyze in written material.

Well, in the case of the USA it's because it's not "some states that happen to be united" but "the USA". The same happens if you're going to the United Arab Emirates or to the Sandwich Islands. I get how this could trip Francophones up, though.

I agree a/the is hard, but I'm not sure は・が is a good comparison at all, because they have more to do with the paper something plays in the sentence than with whether it's determinate or not. Besides, "the" has many idiomatic uses: for example you'd say "I'm going to the chemist's" even if it was the first time you're visiting that city and you don't know where the chemist's is or whether there is one or more.

@vix86,
Yes, yes, of course. This was just meant as an example. They differ from the a/the in many ways. But what I was thinking about is how European languages (and thus English) often use the definite form to mean that a noun is something that the listener should be familiar with. You cannot talk about "the cat" before having introduced this particular cat as "a cat" (normally), unless for example it is obvious to the listener that you have a cat.
And in Japanese は and が can be used to make this distinction as well.