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Of course you can learn 40-60 words a day.

#26
Last time I tried 35 vocab cards a day for a few weeks I quickly dropped back down to 6; if you have other decks on the go it can get very messy. It was easy to see that my review count would've ended up like your picture.

How are all those vocab cards configured? 700 Sentences would be rather time consuming, but would be some practice for reading/grammar.

That looks like my RTK deck from Ankiweb Smile
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#27
vix86 Wrote:
Northern_Lord Wrote:Hahaha. NO WAY am I going to do anything close to 700 reviews per day.
Its not that bad if you review at your optimum time of day and do more during the day. Most people have a good time of day to review. Anyway, if you figure your answering time on cards will run 5-20seconds, and take the average 12.5seconds/card. That's only 2.5 hours. If you are OCD-ish about Anki and use the mobile and pc version and sync, that's doable. The way you optimize is by knowing what your average speed on cards is, maturing rate, and number of matures in the review each day. If that's 400 cards of matures, then you will get through them quick probably. If its too much, then you back off on new cards.

Anki has good graphs to help you figure out if you are aiming to end up with too many reviews on your plate.

Edit: Should have added that it also depends on the type of card. If its a reading only card then it can be quick, but if you have to listen then maybe the review time per card goes up.
For someone with a lot of freely disposeable time that might be possible. On my hand, I spend 50% of my waking time on assignments and classes for university, so I would be giving up all free time I have in the course of a day, which I'm not interested in.

My question to anyone with more than 300 reviews/day is
why don't you combine some of the cards? For example production and listening in one. It's time consuming and you can spend your time on something more reinvigorating like delving into native material.
Edited: 2014-03-12, 1:17 pm
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#28
drdunlap Wrote:
dtcamero Wrote:this all seems like a good way to build a foundation for the japanese language house you will eventually build and inhabit, but nothing more.
It's really easy to control the anki-ing part of the process, which is why I think we spend so much time talking about it... but then you've got to actually build the japanese house on top of that foundation through exposure, talking, reading etc.
that's the hard part guys, that takes more time, that's what I think should deserve most of the attention.

being good at the anki game is not the same as speaking/reading/writing a foreign language.
This is why I don't like Core- because it's like a little colony of Japanese hiding away on a deserted island.
But I'm curious as to whether or not slamming thousands of words into your head over a short period of time and then switching gears to Homebuilders101 would be effective. Everyone I know (warning: not a lot) who has a good grip on Japanese seems to have done it they way I did and gathered words and grammar from their surroundings as they went along.

I know most people don't seem to stick around on these forums after mastering the language but if anyone's done it the cramcramcram way I'd be interested in hearing about it. 8)
Worked for me. I suck at mining, so almost everything I know I know from prebuilt decks. I only started reading nativa material once I had passed the N2, and I would've hated doing it had I not a solid vocabulary foundation already. I took about 20 kaiwa classes to get me going, otherwise I'd only talked to someone in Japanese IRL once before getting a full-time interpreting gig, where I managed surprisingly well, even better than my colleagues who had more years of experience with the language and had spent time interacting with natives and/or in Japan. If anything most of my studies involve anki/renshuu/some sort of cramming site. I'm not as good as other people, but I'm pretty functional after 2 years of cramming. Core decks ftw.
Also, my retention rate for mined terms is deplorable. I'd rather mine 100 premade terms than a single mined one. No idea why.

(Also, native material where I have a really low comprehension rate is somewhere between sheer torture, depression material and utter boredom in my book)
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#29
You guys are right about card types having a big impact on time. I'm just doing the normal Core6k deck in standard order. The setup is 5 cards per new term:

Recognition
Sentence recognition
Listening
Sentence listening
Production

In my sentence deck I have two cards per term:

Term + sentence recognition (term/phrase is on top, then I read the sentence below)
Same sentence with a clozed field for term/phrase

Regarding core, 5 cards per word is a lot and it stacks up to a lot of reviews. But I've noticed my retention is a lot better with Core vocabulary so I don't mind the extra work. My average answer time is 10 seconds per card, but that includes new cards where I write out the vocab. If I know the content well it's literally 1-3 seconds per card. This is balanced heavily toward production: my biggest goal is conversation ability so I measure my success by being able to recall words on demand. I have around 5500 words in my seen cards, and I'd say 4000 of them have a production card somewhere. For recognition only my sentence deck (even without clozes) was enough.
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#30
Two points:

1. The purpose of SRS-ing vocab/sentences is to help people who use immersion to progress faster. SRS-ing is efficient at what it does: helps you focus on what requires that extra focus immersion alone won't give you, or at least won't give you in a short enough time-frame to help you progress quickly. The amount of materials you can familiarize yourself with in a couple of months of sustained effort, with SRS, is staggering.

Of course SRS-ing alone won't make someone fluent. I don't think anyone's disputing the need for immersion. Immersion gives you what SRS can't: deep understanding.

But, before deep understanding, comes shallow understanding. If SRS can give you that, quickly (and it can), then it should be used. Especially with a difficult language, the way Japanese is for westerners.

2. I did both kinds of decks: stuff I mined myself, and the pre-made Core stuff. The stuff I mined myself was more fun to do, and I was more confident that I'm not learning anything I don't need right away (since everything I mine, I mine because I need it to understand stuff I'm interested in). In fact I recently managed to dig up one of the old decks I made myself, and I've started reviewing it from scratch: while I know pretty much all the vocab in it, some of the Kanji requires paying attention to, so it's worth reviewing again. It was quite enjoyable, and a nice break from Core.

The Core deck on the other hand is better quality, has native audio (it can't be said often enough how helpful that is), thanks to Nukemarine it's now sensibly organized, and, in the end, the words in Core ARE all essential. As it turns out, it's more efficient to just do pre-made, good quality materials, than mining your own.

So I decided to stop mining vocab, song lyrics, etc. altogether. I figure it's better to use the time I would waste creating my own deck on reading (without interruption). If I get bored with Core, I just quit for the day and pick up something to read instead. Sure, I like mining better than doing Core, but I like reading even more. I like reading so much more, that it's not worth wasting time with making decks. I'd rather do Core quickly, and then spend most of my time reading.

P.S. In the past, I mentioned that I barely do any SRS-ing (because I work). In case anyone's paying enough attention to be wondering about the lack of consistency in my posts (I don't expect anyone would, but just in case), my sudden change of tempo is due to the decision to take about a month to six weeks off from work (I work as a freelancer, and have enough money for essentials that I can afford a break), and spend that time on a bit of the proverbial "power leveling" in my Japanese reading ability. Simply because I got annoyed with my slow progress. But, from April, I'll get back to my usual 30 mins/day of Anki, plus a couple of hours of immersion.
Edited: 2014-03-12, 7:03 pm
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#31
afterglowefx Wrote:You guys are right about card types having a big impact on time. I'm just doing the normal Core6k deck in standard order. The setup is 5 cards per new term:

Recognition
Sentence recognition
Listening
Sentence listening
Production

[...]

Regarding core, 5 cards per word is a lot and it stacks up to a lot of reviews. But I've noticed my retention is a lot better with Core vocabulary so I don't mind the extra work. My average answer time is 10 seconds per card, but that includes new cards where I write out the vocab. If I know the content well it's literally 1-3 seconds per card. This is balanced heavily toward production: my biggest goal is conversation ability so I measure my success by being able to recall words on demand. I have around 5500 words in my seen cards, and I'd say 4000 of them have a production card somewhere. For recognition only my sentence deck (even without clozes) was enough.
I said I would never post seriously about core again but the cursed beast has been brought to my attention again.
I talked about it briefly (cough) at http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid202336 .

Just to snip out the most important part
Flamerokz Wrote:What I did do was something that I can only describe as being far more inefficient, which was use the shared anki deck at the time which was formatted to have 5 cards for each vocab item. The fronts would have one of five possible pieces of information: vocab (kanji/hiragana), vocab (audio), vocab (english translation), example sentence (kanji/hiragana), example sentence (audio). I would only test for the vocab in question, which meant for a set of information for one vocab item (reading, writing, meaning), given one I would have to fill in the others. So in this regard the example sentences were even less useful for me because they were like vocab cards with context.

DON'T DO THIS.
What I should have added that I did not in my original post is that maybe you can correctly answer the production cards fairly quickly. However, if you insist on this miserable template then I would highly suggest that you do not use performance on the production cards as a measure of how comfortably/correctly you can use the words from core6k in actual conversation, or even how quickly you can recall words on the spot when you're actually talking to someone versus being prompted by Anki. The difference is night and day when you try and converse with people; this is no substitute for conversing regularly. You might use 大蔵省 incorrectly! (A joke, but I assure you there are relevant examples)

In fairness to you you've seem to already gone through it all (and in standard order too! My goodness you are strong-willed) so I suppose I'm not telling you anything of value, but I would highly suggest others do not follow this wretched path. If nothing else, the reward does not warrant the work required.

Anyway, I must return to the depths of hell to do battle with my most bitter rival and beloved friend, Anki.

EDIT: I am bad at bbcode
Edited: 2014-03-13, 7:35 am
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#32
400 cards a day? Good Lord. I have enough trouble with 150. At that point I get really annoyed that I'm wading through garbage sentences that I've seen so many times when I can read a paragraph or chapter of something that is part of a connecting thought.

On the other hand there's still a bunch of vocab I don't know.
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#33
You should delete stuff that's too easy for you and too frequent. You'll encounter it again and again anyways.
Why would you need to SRS 今日、車、仕事? It'll only eat your time and add to the pain.
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#34
andikaze Wrote:You should delete stuff that's too easy for you and too frequent. You'll encounter it again and again anyways.
Why would you need to SRS 今日、車、仕事? It'll only eat your time and add to the pain.
I’m rather low at number of cards in Anki, but even with my modest effort, I can tell you that since mid of 2012:
車 - took me 0:30 seconds in 6 reviews, is due in 1.5 years from now, and has interval of 1.8 years
今日 - took me 0:48 seconds in 6 reviews, is due in 9.6 months from now, and has interval of 1.5 years
仕事 - took me 0:27 seconds in 5 reviews, is due in 20 days from now, and has interval of 7.3 months

Maybe you misunderstood the idea behind SRS?
Edited: 2014-03-13, 10:06 pm
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#35
Maybe you didn't notice yet that small things pile up, too?
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#36
andikaze Wrote:Maybe you didn't notice yet that small things pile up, too?
I did notice they pile up. Like in (to paraphrase myself from the previous post):
during that 1.5 year period, I spent 1 min 45 s (in total) on those 車、今日、仕事.

(AAMOF, I’m not going to post about SRS vs. not-SRS beyond here, as it’s obviously more wasteful than reviewing “easy” cards.)
Edited: 2014-03-14, 12:38 am
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#37
afterglowefx Wrote:You guys are right about card types having a big impact on time. I'm just doing the normal Core6k deck in standard order. The setup is 5 cards per new term:

Recognition
Sentence recognition
Listening
Sentence listening
Production

In my sentence deck I have two cards per term:

Term + sentence recognition (term/phrase is on top, then I read the sentence below)
Same sentence with a clozed field for term/phrase

Regarding core, 5 cards per word is a lot and it stacks up to a lot of reviews. But I've noticed my retention is a lot better with Core vocabulary so I don't mind the extra work. My average answer time is 10 seconds per card, but that includes new cards where I write out the vocab. If I know the content well it's literally 1-3 seconds per card. This is balanced heavily toward production: my biggest goal is conversation ability so I measure my success by being able to recall words on demand. I have around 5500 words in my seen cards, and I'd say 4000 of them have a production card somewhere. For recognition only my sentence deck (even without clozes) was enough.
What deck do you use?
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#38
I like keeping the easy stuff and mature cards because seeing how easy they are make me snicker, and then when I hit the hard ones I remember that I used to find the "easy" ones just as hard not too long ago. the extra 30 seconds are worth it.
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#39
Inny Jan Wrote:
andikaze Wrote:Maybe you didn't notice yet that small things pile up, too?
I did notice they pile up. Like in (to paraphrase myself from the previous post):
during that 1.5 year period, I spent 1 min 45 s (in total) on those 車、今日、仕事.

(AAMOF, I’m not going to post about SRS vs. not-SRS beyond here, as it’s obviously more wasteful than reviewing “easy” cards.)
Now do that for every word higher in the frequency list, as those are what you will encounter on a daily basis, and do the math again.
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#40
I actually don't know how many new words I am hitting a day to be honest. But in my Core deck it's 5 cards per new word so 100 cards a day is 20 words. However, because it is standard order, many of the example sentences will have unknown words. I add those to my sentence deck at the end of the day. For every 20 example sentences there are usually 10-20 new, non-focus words that I add. On top of that I will add random stuff I encounter in my daily life. Usually stuff my students teach me ("We never say 試みる!Use 試す!"), everyday stuff that I still don't have a word for, any word I come across that I can read and easily guess the meaning of, and easy opposites/correlates of Core words that I guess correctly (e.g., I recently learned 下旬 and 上旬, 中旬 was obvious). This will usually be 10-15 new words per day on top of the other stuff.

A few weeks ago I parsed all my decks to do a word count and come up with a bit over 5000. I'm looking forward to doing it again in a couple weeks when I finish Core6k step 5. Then I can give a precise number of new words/day over a given time period.

Flamerokz Wrote:...In fairness to you you've seem to already gone through it all (and in standard order too! My goodness you are strong-willed) so I suppose I'm not telling you anything of value, but I would highly suggest others do not follow this wretched path. If nothing else, the reward does not warrant the work required.
I'm actually only about 40% of the way through 6k. The first two steps were pretty brutal but I was persistent and, maybe more importantly, plugged every worthwhile vocab word from the example sentences not covered in the step into my sentence/clozed deck. Now when they come up later it's easy mode because I already know them.

Seems like you had a pretty bad time with Core. I'll agree that finishing Core2k took some doing, but I did get it done in 3 months (concurrently with RTK!). I'm doing 100 cards a day now and it's also going relatively quickly.

I'm all too familiar with the way that Anki and real world performance interact, as I go from studying Anki every day to the classroom every afternoon. And I still really think the extra work involved in the standard 5-card Anki deck pays off. I don't know if you or anyone else reading has ever taught EIKEN, but it's a Japanese English test. Most of the high school kids who are any good are aiming for level 2, which falls somewhere between JLPT 3 and 2 (probably closer to 2). In 8 months I've gone from "Let's look up every single word on the page in our dictionaries together!" to being able to translate or at least explain nearly all the words in a given reading section. Words don't always want to come, but they usually do. Back when I was just doing a sentence deck words never came, nevernevernever. I could be wrong, I could just be a sucker for punishment or, most probably, a creature of habit, but Core6k in standard format does justify the time involved for me!

learningkanji Wrote:What deck do you use?
Just do a search on the Anki website for Core 2000 (or 6000) and I use the one that comes in steps of 1-10.
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#41
andikaze Wrote:
Inny Jan Wrote:
andikaze Wrote:Maybe you didn't notice yet that small things pile up, too?
I did notice they pile up. Like in (to paraphrase myself from the previous post):
during that 1.5 year period, I spent 1 min 45 s (in total) on those 車、今日、仕事.

(AAMOF, I’m not going to post about SRS vs. not-SRS beyond here, as it’s obviously more wasteful than reviewing “easy” cards.)
Now do that for every word higher in the frequency list, as those are what you will encounter on a daily basis, and do the math again.
It would probably correlate to the amount of time I spend sitting at red lights picking my nose, or staring at the crow outside my window every morning. There's gains in time and efficiency to be made everywhere (no matter the enterprise), of course, but beyond a certain point I don't know that shaving off a minute or two per day is really worthwhile!
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#42
afterglowefx Wrote:
learningkanji Wrote:What deck do you use?
Just do a search on the Anki website for Core 2000 (or 6000) and I use the one that comes in steps of 1-10.
Oh ok. I'm currently doing Japanese Core 2000 Step 03 Listening Sentence Vocab + Images which I guess you've already done.
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#43
afterglowefx Wrote:
andikaze Wrote:
Inny Jan Wrote:I did notice they pile up. Like in (to paraphrase myself from the previous post):
during that 1.5 year period, I spent 1 min 45 s (in total) on those 車、今日、仕事.

(AAMOF, I’m not going to post about SRS vs. not-SRS beyond here, as it’s obviously more wasteful than reviewing “easy” cards.)
Now do that for every word higher in the frequency list, as those are what you will encounter on a daily basis, and do the math again.
It would probably correlate to the amount of time I spend sitting at red lights picking my nose, or staring at the crow outside my window every morning. There's gains in time and efficiency to be made everywhere (no matter the enterprise), of course, but beyond a certain point I don't know that shaving off a minute or two per day is really worthwhile!
You should realize that this forum is full of people trying to one UP others in their Japanese learning endavours. It cultivates efficiency but also creates a bubble where people's lives should be devoted to Japanese or else they're doing it "slow" or "worse".

This isn't criticism towards koohii.com as much as it is criticism towards any message board with a certain theme. Video games, running, gym, even drinking tea, all expect you to live to the activity in question.
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#44
Guys to be really honest, the day I threw away my 10k vocab deck was the best day in my study of the Japanese language so far.

I got up to 10k vocab and the reviews were sucking the soul out of me. I spent a whole year doing that deck for hours each day. All while learning no real Japanese apart from kanji readings and English meanings, while having no idea how these words are really used, because spending X hours each day on Anki doesn't leave time (at least for me) or motivation to read/listen to some real Japanese. And don't tell me about sentence decks, because with sentences each review takes even longer and it's already hard enough to do like 500 vocab reviews each day (which will amount to even more with failed cards).

So I basically threw away that deck and started reading Japanese, which is a lot more interesting. Also the feeling of not being obligated to read every day was very liberating. Just reading a couple pages of a light novel or manga on the way to college, doesn't matter how many.

Now I'm pretty convinced I should have just went through a kanji readings deck for a couple months, drill the readings and then start reading. Because I think drilling vocab is just as mindless as drilling readings. But 2000 cards are much more managable than 10000. And the vocab is just as meaningless until you actually see it in real native context.
Edited: 2014-03-16, 12:50 pm
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#45
apirx Wrote:And the vocab is just as meaningless until you actually see it in real native context.
Yet when you do see it in native context, you already know one meaning instead of just the readings. That one meaning can help you figure out additional meanings too. It's a great help to know something about the word in question, even if it doesn't match the context perfectly.

I would have stopped at 6k though and started mining native materials for the last 4k. But to each his own.
Edited: 2014-03-16, 1:04 pm
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#46
apirx Wrote:Now I'm pretty convinced I should have just went through a kanji readings deck for a couple months, drill the readings and then start reading. Because I think drilling vocab is just as mindless as drilling readings. But 2000 cards are much more managable than 10000. And the vocab is just as meaningless until you actually see it in real native context.
I really wonder how well you'd be reading right now if you didn't do 10k words first, though? That gave you the foundation and basic meaning for 10,000 words, it gave you a grasp of the most common readings for nearly all the common kanji, and it gave you memory hooks for thousands of new words which correlate to, correspond with, mean the opposite of, or are otherwise connected to your first 10,000 words.

Even if you did memorize all the readings for the most common kanji (no small feat), I think you'd find reading extremely painful without a solid vocabulary to fall back on. It's often said that reading is like an SRS. This fundamentally misses the point of what an SRS is: an SRS shows you something when you need to see it in order to commit it to memory, not before and not after. Reading has nothing to do with this process.

I have a little experience here: I teach my high school students level Pre-2 and 2 EIKEN (an English test for Japanese) and there's only about 6-7 thousand words on the test. I see the same words come up every week, I teach the same words every week, and passively seeing new words whenever you bump into them just is not enough without a large base vocabulary--my students rarely remember them.

Yes, Core-style vocab drills are boring. No, they don't give you the full spectrum of a given word's meaning. But what it does do, and well, is commit a very large amount of words to memory in a relatively short time, which allows you--as you are now--to go on to bigger and better things.

More as an aside, but whenever I hit synonyms or words that I'm not too clear on the meaning of, I just add 2-5 sentences using the word to my sentence deck.
Edited: 2014-03-16, 9:16 pm
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#47
There's not only a time factor tho. Boring activities are boring and consume willpower, of which you only have so much a day. Returning to your deck after a tough day, only to find a pile of reviews has a psychological effect, too. It creates and reinforces aversion and eventually leads to burnout.

Of course, if you find it fun, go ahead. Then it's the right thing to do.
Edited: 2014-03-16, 7:46 pm
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#48
andikaze Wrote:There's not only a time factor tho. Boring activities are boring and consume willpower, of which you only have so much a day. Returning to your deck after a tough day, only to find a pile of reviews has a psychological effect, too. It creates and reinforces aversion and eventually leads to burnout.

Of course, if you find it fun, go ahead. Then it's the right thing to do.
Really quite true, of course. If I worked in the morning there's no way I'd be learning at this pace. I just couldn't do it. But I work in the afternoon, and it's much better to arrive at work sapped of energy and willpower than it is to arrive home in that state!
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#49
I totally agree with afterglowefx. Good post.
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#50
afterglowefx Wrote:I really wonder how well you'd be reading right now if you didn't do 10k words first, though? That gave you the foundation and basic meaning for 10,000 words, it gave you a grasp of the most common readings for nearly all the common kanji, and it gave you memory hooks for thousands of new words which correlate to, correspond with, mean the opposite of, or are otherwise connected to your first 10,000 words.
You're of course right, I would miss these 10,000 words a lot, and this time was certainly not wasted. But I spent a year of my life being a flashcard robot, and I wouldn't do that again.
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