Back

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan?

When my parents visited in Japan they were really grateful when people tried to use English to help them. I had other friends visit too and they were also really appreciative. But they don't come to learn Japanese forums to post about how well treated they felt during their time in Japan.

Fact is, Japanese people are correct to use English in probably 9/10 dealings with foreigners. They are doing the sensible reasonable thing, and shouldn't be criticised for that.

As umetani666 puts, the problem really is just that a lot of people cannot adjust to being a minority in such a different country. The statistic before that 60% "reject" their new country/culture was quite interesting I thought.
Reply
umetani666 Wrote:japan's views on LGBT people simply reflect the views of the vast majority of the population of the planet. nothing surprising there. it's just that it's very fashionable to cry and moan about it.
but what about rights of handicapped people? most countries in the world provide no access ramps or parking spots for handicapped, but i don't see people losing sleep over it. which is ironic, since it's an issue that most people would find non-controversial.
so, instead of making a referendum about gay marriages that is bound to fail, how about doing something for handicapped that will most likely succeed? who on earth would be against access ramps or some extra car spots for disabled?
What you're saying demands significant resources (ramps, car spots, elevators etc.) and resources are scarce, thus we cannot spend too many of said resources on the minorities. The issues of the LGBT people on the other hand demand an attitude change at worst.
Reply
umetani666 Wrote:
Aikynaro Wrote:I was arguing before that 'racist' is the wrong word, but sure - if you're in Finland and talk to non-Finnish-looking people in English, it's a form of racial discrimination.
no, it's not discrimination. it's called having some common sense and not being irrational.

the problem here is that obviously some people cannot get used to their new role of being a minority in a foreign country. the other problem is that they think it's everyone else's problem, but not their own. therefore, frustration ensues.
No, it's discrimination. Choosing to treat someone differently than you would from other people based on appearance is discrimination.
Maybe you think it's an instance positive discrimination - that's fine. But it makes a sizable amount of people uncomfortable and I don't think it should be difficult to understand why.

I'm not honestly all that interested in this discussion, so I'm going to bow out here.
Reply
May 16 - 30 : Pretty Big Deal: Save 31% on all Premium Subscriptions! - Sign up here
JapanesePod101
Betelgeuzah Wrote:The issues of the LGBT people on the other hand demand an attitude change at worst.
you are forgetting significant resources (like money) that go into convincing people that LGBT rights are ok. unfortunately, majority of population is still not convinced, so large sums of money are wasted on something that's bound to fail.
so why not put that money into something that will obviously succeed (building ramps for handicapped, etc)?
Reply
umetani666 Wrote:unfortunately, majority of population is still not convinced, so large sums of money are wasted on something that's bound to fail.
so why not put that money into something that will obviously succeed (building ramps for handicapped, etc)?
Strange, we must be in alternate realities.
LGBT rights by country
Note the map of UN countries. 94 have signed in support of LGBT rights, with 54 opposed and 46 having decided neither way. So by this measure LGBT rights doesn't seem on course to "bound to fail." And the recent media in countries that have had a history of being against these rights (like the US) has been showing that courts and the public are siding with the human rights these groups deserve.
Reply
NightSky Wrote:When my parents visited in Japan they were really grateful when people tried to use English to help them. I had other friends visit too and they were also really appreciative. But they don't come to learn Japanese forums to post about how well treated they felt during their time in Japan.

Fact is, Japanese people are correct to use English in probably 9/10 dealings with foreigners. They are doing the sensible reasonable thing, and shouldn't be criticised for that.

As umetani666 puts, the problem really is just that a lot of people cannot adjust to being a minority in such a different country. The statistic before that 60% "reject" their new country/culture was quite interesting I thought.
I thought the point of flying halfway around the world was to experience the local culture. Who comes to Japan to speak English, eat at McDonald's, and shop at CostCo? You might as well go to Kansas City. They have a sushi restaurant there too, and I'm pretty sure the staff speaks English.

More to the point . . . What's wrong with just speaking the language of your own country? You go to France, people speak French. You go to Italy, they speak Italian. They're not obsessed with trying to guess who's from where.

Japan has an absolute obsession with "foreigners." The public schools import JETS and ALTS from overseas, and employ them to speak English and, simply put, to act foreign, even comically so. As a result, children learn from an early age that "foreign" people are "different." Because they're being paid to act that way. If you haven't worked in the schools here, you're probably oblivious that this is happening on a massive scale. It's like desegregation busing, only with airplanes, and nobody wants them to integrate.
Reply
Let me start off with a nice Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_cr...ted_States

Have a quick glance at that article. You'll find a lot of gems, with the overall trend being that non-whites in the United States are responsible for a massively disproportionate amount of crime: looking at homicide rates alone, "the offending rate for blacks was almost 8 times higher than whites [between 1980-2008], and the victim rate 6 times higher."

If you're a police officer, and you've got two suspects for a murder--one white and one black--you might as well just arrest the black guy, right? Eight to one, he's your man. I mean, statistics are on your side! What can go wrong with using statistics to determine how to treat individuals? As long as you're right most of the time, what's the harm? ....Right, guys?

What many of you are missing in this thread is that the morality of discrimination has nothing to do with statistics. It's about treating people as people and not as types of people. Whether it turns out that your stereotype was correct or incorrect is immaterial.

This is something that many Japanese really, really struggle with. Perhaps it has something to do with, as JapaneseRuleof7 pointed out, the way the educational system invests so much time and money in othering foreigners. It definitely has something to do with the (perceived) racial homogeneity of the country. The Japanese reliance on social roles and everyone having a certain place in society may also play into it. I'm also sure the Japanese idea that only "real" Japanese can understand Japanese culture/society/outlook (and as an extension, language, chopsticks, motor vehicle operation) plays a role.

Whatever the source(s), just because you may frequently be correct doesn't excuse the end result.
Reply
Can I just ask people here who are living in Japan: if you need to talk to a unknown foreigner here for some reason (maybe someone you meet at uni, maybe tourists looking lost, etc), what language do you use?

For example, if I saw a typical group of tourists looking lost and I wanted to help them, I would approach them in English first for sure. If I want to talk to foreign faculty or students at uni, I still try Japanese first. The thing is, this is overly optimistic and I'm probably going to stop soon: most of them don't speak Japanese worth a damn.

Even if you don't like it personally (and I don't), you can see why some* Japanese people approach foreigners in English (or doubt foreigners' Japanese ability in general) - I would probably do the same thing in their shoes. It's not about bloody morality. They're busy with their own life. They need to get a message conveyed. They choose statistically by far the quickest, least mendokusai method.

* "Japanese people only speak to me in English!!" is a complaint I read a lot on the internet but I have very rarely experienced here :/
Edited: 2014-03-14, 10:37 pm
Reply
Ash_S Wrote:Even if you don't like it personally (and I don't), you can see why some* Japanese people approach foreigners in English (or doubt foreigners' Japanese ability in general) - I would probably do the same thing in their shoes. It's not about bloody morality. They're busy with their own life. They need to get a message conveyed. They choose statistically by far the quickest, least mendokusai method.
Oh I'm sure most Japanese are not approaching the question from a moral or any other well-thought-out point of view. And that's the point.

Unless the person I'm looking at is quite clearly a tourist (like they literally have a suitcase in one hand and a camera in the other with an I Love NY shirt on) I'd never start with English.
Reply
afterglowefx Wrote:
Ash_S Wrote:Even if you don't like it personally (and I don't), you can see why some* Japanese people approach foreigners in English (or doubt foreigners' Japanese ability in general) - I would probably do the same thing in their shoes. It's not about bloody morality. They're busy with their own life. They need to get a message conveyed. They choose statistically by far the quickest, least mendokusai method.
Oh I'm sure most Japanese are not approaching the question from a moral or any other well-thought-out point of view. And that's the point.

Unless the person I'm looking at is quite clearly a tourist (like they literally have a suitcase in one hand and a camera in the other with an I Love NY shirt on) I'd never start with English.
Like I said, I'm frequently disappointed when I try to speak to foreigners at university in Japanese, it normally just frustrates both of us. Hell, I've even had people get properly annoyed at me ("Why don't you just speak English?!"). To speak to foreigners in Japanese is usually, to sum it up in one word, mendokusai... for both parties.

Not every little thing you do in life has to be based on bloody moral philosophy. Most of the time people are busy with their own damn lives and don't need any extra stress.
Reply
Ash_S Wrote:Can I just ask people here who are living in Japan: if you need to talk to a unknown foreigner here for some reason (maybe someone you meet at uni, maybe tourists looking lost, etc), what language do you use?
I've been approached by "foreign" people in Japan, and often they lead with: "Excuse me. Do you speak English?"

That seems like a very sensible way to approach a stranger. Unfortunately, I've never had a Japanese person start a conversation like that.

Personally, I've had many conversations with "foreigners" (those light-skinnned, round-eyed devils) that were entirely in Japanese, including a guy from Canada that I knew for over a year. We never once spoke English.

Now let me ask you. Have you ever met a Japanese person in your home country, and did you speak English with him or her? And how weird was it?
Reply
I think you're trying too hard to compare social norms in Japan to social norms in the US.

It seems to me that you think that Japan is wrong in some way because society over here doesn't have the same views of race, nationality, immigration, and language that the US has.
Reply
vix86 Wrote:Strange, we must be in alternate realities.
LGBT rights by country
Note the map of UN countries. 94 have signed in support of LGBT rights, with 54 opposed and 46 having decided neither way. So by this measure LGBT rights doesn't seem on course to "bound to fail." And the recent media in countries that have had a history of being against these rights (like the US) has been showing that courts and the public are siding with the human rights these groups deserve.
if only 15 countries recognize same-sex marriages, then yes, that's a fail for me.

the only way that i can see this work is if LGBT rights (marriage, adoption of children, etc) are imposed upon a country against the will of voters and without referendums. of course, that wouldn't be very democratic, but it's not like democracy is answer for everything.

kitakitsune Wrote:I think you're trying too hard to compare social norms in Japan to social norms in the US.

It seems to me that you think that Japan is wrong in some way because society over here doesn't have the same views of race, nationality, immigration, and language that the US has.
for all the talk against discrimination and racism, there's suprisingly little tolerance for other culture's norms and ways of behaviour. but i guess that's to be expected...
Reply
umetani666 Wrote:the only way that i can see this work is if LGBT rights (marriage, adoption of children, etc) are imposed upon a country against the will of voters and without referendums. of course, that wouldn't be very democratic, but it's not like democracy is answer for everything.
Thankfully nothing so dictatorial as that actually has to happen. Given time societies will shift to accept LGBT and the laws will shift to match that. Just as opinions on blacks, women voting, interracial marriages, etc. have changed over the decades (in the US for example).

I'm sensing you don't like LGBT/Homosexuals, and that's fine, but you're going to find yourself on the wrong side of history.
Reply
umetani666 Wrote:
Betelgeuzah Wrote:The issues of the LGBT people on the other hand demand an attitude change at worst.
you are forgetting significant resources (like money) that go into convincing people that LGBT rights are ok. unfortunately, majority of population is still not convinced, so large sums of money are wasted on something that's bound to fail.
so why not put that money into something that will obviously succeed (building ramps for handicapped, etc)?
"Majority of population not being convinced" is such a cop-out. Where there's been movement towards convincing people the results have been good. Of course in the arab countries, asia and africa (where most people live) people are still backwards thinking but it's not like the movements are particularly strong there (so no money wasted either).

"It's bound to fail" is nothing but your opinion at best. Of course nobody is going to buy it.
Edited: 2014-03-15, 7:40 am
Reply
vix86 Wrote:Given time societies will shift to accept LGBT and the laws will shift to match that.
ok. you believe in that, but personally i am sceptical.

vix86 Wrote:I'm sensing you don't like LGBT/Homosexuals, and that's fine, but you're going to find yourself on the wrong side of history.
actually, i voted for gay rights. but i knew i would have to spell out that i'm not homophobic. i was just curious about why most people feel LGBT rights are more important than, say, handicapped people's rights.

Betelgeuzah Wrote:"Majority of population not being convinced" is such a cop-out.
in a situation where, out of all the countries in the world, only 15 of them recognize gay marriages, to say that LGBT rights are doing fine, is a bit delusional, i'm afraid.
Edited: 2014-03-15, 8:25 am
Reply
umetani666 Wrote:
Betelgeuzah Wrote:"Majority of population not being convinced" is such a cop-out.
in a situation where, out of all the countries in the world, only 15 of them recognize gay marriages, to say that LGBT rights are doing fine, is a bit delusional, i'm afraid.
We can pick a time in where only 15 countries in the world let women vote in the elections too.

I'm not saying LGBT rights are doing fine, I'm saying it's hardly bound to fail because only 15 countries recognize gay marriages today. With the same line of thought women's rights were bound to fail too decades ago.
Edited: 2014-03-15, 8:53 am
Reply
umetani666 Wrote:i was just curious about why most people feel LGBT rights are more important than, say, handicapped people's rights.
I'm not going to sit here and assign a value to either cause. But individual groups and people do place different values on things. So why it should come off as any surprise that LGBT groups/people/supporters are putting money there, is beyond me. You could make the same counter argument on supporting people with disabilities.
Reply
vix86 Wrote:
umetani666 Wrote:i was just curious about why most people feel LGBT rights are more important than, say, handicapped people's rights.
I'm not going to sit here and assign a value to either cause. But individual groups and people do place different values on things. So why it should come off as any surprise that LGBT groups/people/supporters are putting money there, is beyond me. You could make the same counter argument on supporting people with disabilities.
I think you called it all the way back on page three. This guy is either trolling or outright impervious to common sense.
Reply
Gay rights are obviously important to gay people because they're about them. Handicap people's rights, which I'm taking to be restructuring areas to accommodate them with things like ramps, etc, are important to them because they're about them.

So it isn't a surprise why one group would be more interested in one cause when one cause or the other is about them.

That aside, it's not like gay rights and handicap people's rights have to be put on two ends up some extreme and be in conflict with each other.

Gay marriage would basically cost nothing, so aside from a person's discriminatory beliefs, it's more or less a non-issue in terms of finances. That way, if a person believes that handicap issues are more important than gay rights, particularly due to money, then that's fine because things like gay marriage wouldn't cost much of anything and could literally be implemented all over the world tomorrow.

So I'm not sure why the two are really contending with each other for the title of what's most important, lol, unless it's just for the sake of arguing.
Reply
vix86 Wrote:You could make the same counter argument on supporting people with disabilities.
yeah, but when's the last time you saw on tv or read in papers something about disabled people's problems? i guess their problems are not fashionable enough.

but ok, i see this is irritating some people so i'll drop it.
Edited: 2014-03-15, 12:49 pm
Reply
umetani666 Wrote:yeah, but when's the last time you saw on tv or read in papers something about disabled people's problems? i guess their problems are not fashionable enough.
You won't see one in the states because businesses are required to be handicap accessible. And you see handicap problems in the paper in Japan about as much as you see LGBT problems in the paper.
Reply
umetani666 Wrote:
vix86 Wrote:You could make the same counter argument on supporting people with disabilities.
yeah, but when's the last time you saw on tv or read in papers something about disabled people's problems? i guess their problems are not fashionable enough.

but ok, i see this is irritating some people so i'll drop it.
It has little to do with being fashionable, and more to do with how people may or may not be ignorant to the idea that gay rights and issues regarding areas being easily accessible to handicap people aren't meant to be in contention with one another.

The rights for handicap people seems to be about money, while the issue of gay rights (at least in terms of marriage) seems to be about stubbornness and discrimination. One is easily solved in terms of granting it because it doesn't really require money as much as it does social acceptance, and the other could be solved if more money was allotted to the issue.

So really, one issue should not be an issue because it should already be a thing, and the other should be and should have been focused on with more seriousness.
Reply
TsugiAshi Wrote:
umetani666 Wrote:
vix86 Wrote:You could make the same counter argument on supporting people with disabilities.
yeah, but when's the last time you saw on tv or read in papers something about disabled people's problems? i guess their problems are not fashionable enough.

but ok, i see this is irritating some people so i'll drop it.
It has little to do with being fashionable, and more to do with how people may or may not be ignorant to the idea that gay rights and issues regarding areas being easily accessible to handicap people aren't meant to be in contention with one another.

The rights for handicap people seems to be about money, while the issue of gay rights (at least in terms of marriage) seems to be about stubbornness and discrimination. One is easily solved in terms of granting it because it doesn't really require money as much as it does social acceptance, and the other could be solved if more money was allotted to the issue.

So really, one issue should not be an issue because it should already be a thing, and the other should be and should have been focused on with more seriousness.
This.
Reply
JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:I've been approached by "foreign" people in Japan, and often they lead with: "Excuse me. Do you speak English?"

That seems like a very sensible way to approach a stranger. Unfortunately, I've never had a Japanese person start a conversation like that.
Yeah, that would be something. It's not like anybody would expect you to not even know すみません, but I often get "sorry" from people on the street/elevator/train.


When I turned up in 2011 after spending a year of heavy immersion training that capped years of uni study, I was really in "Japanese mode" mentally. I listened to it all the time on my iPod (radio podcasts), I read it all the time, I watched it all the time, and my friends had for the last year all been mostly Japanese. For me it was just a "language". It was almost like air. You do things in it all the time, and it just starts to disappear from view. I had experienced frustration at cultural barriers back when I was an exchange student in 2005, but had largely interpreted that as a language barrier. This time, I thought, it would be different. I quickly had to realize two things...

1. The overwhelming majority foreign students at my university couldn't speak Japanese at all, with the Chinese students being the only noticeable exception. The foreign students could, however, all speak English.

2. None of the Japanese students actually expected us to speak their language, or be "people".

I had to accept that Japanese was not the language of communication among NJ. I initiated conversation in Japanese for the first few weeks as I was still in that "mode", but eventually I realized that from their perspective I was just being weird and/or trying to lord my language skills over them. It didn't work.

I also had to accept that for most Japanese students, foreigners like myself were a special type of person. The "ryugakusei". Mostly, you don't chat with ryugakusei, you have 文化交流 or 国際交流. I managed to make some Japanese friends by being proactive and participating in some events and club activities, and also by living in a regular dorm. But the starting point for any first-time meeting was often the assumption of absolute ignorance of everything. Even when speaking in Japanese I had a guy once try and explain to me where Osaka was (we were in Kyoto).

So, fast forward a few years later, and the main language of my life was English, the bulk of my good friends were people from Eastern Europe, China, or South America. Knowing Japanese meant being much less isolated and feeling like I was in a "bubble" than when I was an exchange student years earlier, but the reality was that people's expectations of who I was functioned as though to label me with "handle with care" or "treat with caution". The language itself was not the key to making all difficulty go away. Rather it let me handle the necessities of day to day life, and make friends with a few of the more oddball 空気読めない types or occasional people with an international perspective/experience. I did get to experience it as a bit of a lingua-franca when it came to speaking with half Japanese half foreign exchange students who were raised speaking it, but basically any NJ I met preferred English, and the Japanese students were mostly conditioned to want a "foreign experience" from me that got in the way of genuine friendship or communication. I would have had a better blast being the English speaking "gaijin" ryugakusei getting drunk by the kamogawa. It's only if you attempt to integrate that you get bitter I guess.
Edited: 2014-06-13, 4:30 am
Reply