kitakitsune Wrote:

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:A lot of the kids in my classes (here in Japan) are black and white and brown. But they're all Japanese. I don't believe they think that someone speaking English to them is "kind." Sometimes they're even called "gaijin" by the other kids, despite never having lived anywhere else.

While you may see this as kindness, it's hard to see it as other than racism, for me.

I disagree. It is absolutely a feature of Japanese kindness and service mentality when they speak English to people who do not appear to be Japanese. The odds of a Japanese person running into a caucasian or black person born and raised in Japan are astronomically small. Meanwhile, it's far more common for foreign visitors or even foreign residents to speak better English than Japanese.

But in either situation, it becomes obvious when someone can speak Japanese.

Astronomically small? I work at a small eikaiwa/juku. 100 students maximum. There's two first generation Japanese kids running around: one's family is from Chile, the other from Pakistan. Neither of those kids know any more English than any other Japanese kid their own age, they speak fluent, non-accented Japanese, and if a clerk were to speak to them in English they'd go just as wide-eyed as if the clerk spoke to anyone else in English.

That's my school. I go to a couple preschools once a month and there's at least half a dozen kids at each of varying ethnic backgrounds. And I live in Gunma, which is by no means a foreigner hot-spot (excluding the couple thousand of Brazilians working in the automotive industry).

I never speak English to anyone unless I'm dead sure they're from an English speaking country, and that's almost never going to be so certain.

kitakitsune Wrote:I disagree. It is absolutely a feature of Japanese kindness and service mentality when they speak English to people who do not appear to be Japanese. The odds of a Japanese person running into a caucasian or black person born and raised in Japan are astronomically small. Meanwhile, it's far more common for foreign visitors or even foreign residents to speak better English than Japanese.

But in either situation, it becomes obvious when someone can speak Japanese.

You know, when I lived in the States, I was friends with a Japanese guy. He took me to a party with a bunch of his Japanese friends. I said "konnichiwa" to a couple of people, and rather than being pleased, they seemed annoyed. I quickly learned that wasn't a good way to make friends.

Later, I dated a Japanese girl, and watched as this would happen to her, again and again. We'd be walking down the street and somebody'd say "konnichiwa" to her. She hated it.

So apparently Japanese people don't appreciate this "kindness" when it extends to them.

But if you're comfortable changing how you speak depending on how people look, then that's fine. But I'm guessing you're not black, my brotha, or hispanic, ese.

afterglowefx Wrote:Astronomically small? I work at a small eikaiwa/juku. 100 students maximum. There's two first generation Japanese kids running around: one's family is from Chile, the other from Pakistan. Neither of those kids know any more English than any other Japanese kid their own age, they speak fluent, non-accented Japanese, and if a clerk were to speak to them in English they'd go just as wide-eyed as if the clerk spoke to anyone else in English.

That's my school. I go to a couple preschools once a month and there's at least half a dozen kids at each of varying ethnic backgrounds. And I live in Gunma, which is by no means a foreigner hot-spot (excluding the couple thousand of Brazilians working in the automotive industry).

I never speak English to anyone unless I'm dead sure they're from an English speaking country, and that's almost never going to be so certain.

Word. Working in the schools here, I've taught well over 20,000 Japanese students, and in a typical class of 30, there are always at least one or two children who are identifiably "different." Some are white, some black, and some brown, but they certainly don't look traditionally "Japanese."

Even within the remaining students, there is a *lot* of facial variation, significant differences in noses, eyes, and skin colors. It seems clear that there is some mixed Asian blood, though nobody wants to admit it. Students sometimes confess to me that they have a parent or grandparent who came from another country.

This idea what constitutes "Japanese" is largely a fabrication.

Japanese people invest a lot of energy into dividing the nation into two kinds of people: "Japanese" and "foreigners," based upon appearance. Or if they must, they'll label someone as a "half." But the truth is a lot messier.

Yes, the number of non-Japanese kids born and raised in Japan is astronomically small.

You shouldn't feel bad about speaking English to foreigners. It's become a world standard and nearly every country on earth is teaching it in their schooling systems. Of course, this doesn't mean they are good at the language, but it's far more common that any two people from different countries have some level of base knowledge in English compared to one of them knowing the other's non-English native language.

I always just kind of assume that people who don't look like obvious sightseers probably speak the language of the country they're living in. Even if it's so often not true in Japan. :|

And them Half's, they have the most "fun." Being treated as a foreigner in your own country must be the bee's knees.
#related?

It has NOTHING to do with "Japanese kindness".
You seem to mix behavior standards with heartfelt friendliness - but Japanese people are not that much different from you or me.


This thread reads a little strange anyways, as if Japanese people were alien creatures from a different planet. They aren't. They don't think or feel differently, they just have different "standard procedures" to deal with human relationships.

afterglowefx Wrote:I still think some of the bigger issues in Japan are certainly worthy of criticism (Japan has a long, long way to go on gender equality; LGBT rights are non-existent; the legal system is bucked; etc, etc), but most of what you encounter is the same as you'd encounter in any bar anywhere in the world where people are in the mood to or invited to bitch.

I think bigger companies are getting better with regards to treatment of LGBT employees, but yeah, what do you expect in an society where the culture is to keep a low profile and not make a big fuss over your minority issues. If the LGBT community wants to push harder on these issues I don't think there's anything stopping them...

At least you're not so likely to get physically assaulted and stuff here, I think.

japan's views on LGBT people simply reflect the views of the vast majority of the population of the planet. nothing surprising there. it's just that it's very fashionable to cry and moan about it.
but what about rights of handicapped people? most countries in the world provide no access ramps or parking spots for handicapped, but i don't see people losing sleep over it. which is ironic, since it's an issue that most people would find non-controversial.
so, instead of making a referendum about gay marriages that is bound to fail, how about doing something for handicapped that will most likely succeed? who on earth would be against access ramps or some extra car spots for disabled?

umetani666 Wrote:it's just that it's very fashionable to cry and moan about it.

I'm calling Troll, before anything breaks out.

me too.

umetani666 Wrote:...but what about rights of handicapped people?

I'll go ahead and refer you to the double 'et cetera' in my post, which generally indicates that a given list is non-exclusive.

I'll additionally point out, but more as an aside less we slip waaaay off topic, that providing access for the disabled is at it's core an economic issue (as you said, it's not controversial). Do you have any idea how expensive it is to retrofit even a single building for disabled access? When was the last time you priced an elevator? How many buildings, sidewalks, and flights of stairs are there in an average-sized country? If solving most of the problems associated with handicapped access was as simple as amending some outdated laws, rest assured that it would have been handled by now. And that's all that's standing in the way of LGBT rights: ink on paper.

afterglowefx Wrote:If solving most of the problems associated with handicapped access was as simple as amending some outdated laws, rest assured that it would have been handled by now.

but it is simple. and no it hasn't been handled yet.

the difference is that, for some reason, LGBT movement has become a strong political force, while rights of disabled people are deemed as trivial and unimportant.

so, on the one hand, you have a consensus that something should be done for disabled people, but nobody wants to do it.
on the other hands, large sums of money are pumped into something that majority of people obviously don't care about(LGBT rights). they are shoving ideas down people's throats although majority of voters are obviously against it (only 15 out of 200 nations recognize same-sex marriages).

so who's crazy here? it's not coincidence that you mentioned LGBT or woman rights instead of handicapped people's rights.

umetani666 Wrote:

afterglowefx Wrote:If solving most of the problems associated with handicapped access was as simple as amending some outdated laws, rest assured that it would have been handled by now.

but it is simple. and no it hasn't been handled yet.

the difference is that, for some reason, LGBT movement has become a strong political force, while rights of disabled people are deemed as trivial and unimportant.

so, on the one hand, you have a consensus that something should be done for disabled people, but nobody wants to do it.
on the other hands, large sums of money are pumped into something that majority of people obviously don't care about(LGBT rights). they are shoving ideas down people's throats although majority of voters are obviously against it (only 15 out of 200 nations recognize same-sex marriages).

so who's crazy here? it's not coincidence that you mentioned LGBT or woman rights instead of handicapped people's rights.

Cost of legally mandated retrofitting of an entire country: billions (trillions?) of dollars.
Cost of amendment of civil code regarding LGBT rights: $0.

I'm gonna go ahead and just throw this out there but...
Kirin's new limited edition シークヮーサー STRONG酎ハイ is pretty delightful.


Also おねぇ are pretty generally accepted. Too bad that's just the world of fame, television and 新宿二丁目.

Well, of course they're accepted. They're stereotypical depictions of gay/trans people for the purpose of entertainment, after all. |:

My hair is going to be pretty damn girly when I start my new job here, wonder how that's going to pan out. 8-)

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:Not to nitpick, Stansfield123, but this kind of jumped out at me.

A lot of the kids in my classes (here in Japan) are black and white and brown. But they're all Japanese. I don't believe they think that someone speaking English to them is "kind." Sometimes they're even called "gaijin" by the other kids, despite never having lived anywhere else.

While you may see this as kindness, it's hard to see it as other than racism, for me.

Then you need to get over yourself. Racism is someone insulting or looking down on you because of your race, not talking to you in a language they assume you speak.

There's obviously no malice in the Japanese tendency to speak English with 'foreign-looking' people. 'Racism' seems like the wrong word - the connotation is too negative and is caught up in the race relationship issues of other cultures.
But nonetheless, it's racial profiling and that makes people uncomfortable for good reason.

Aikynaro Wrote:There's obviously no malice in the Japanese tendency to speak English with 'foreign-looking' people. 'Racism' seems like the wrong word - the connotation is too negative and is caught up in the race relationship issues of other cultures.
But nonetheless, it's racial profiling and that makes people uncomfortable for good reason.

And the point JapaneseRuleOf7 was making is that Half-Japanese people who are .. legally? (and half-ethnically) Japanese, and know nothing other than Japan (but still look rather foreign) are treated just as we foreigners are. That may not be racism but it sure is discrimination. 8)

And when you put all the pieces together, especially in a slowly globalizing Japan, you realize that it's weird to assume that "non-Japanese face = non-Japanese." There's no malice in it, but sooner or later the Japanese populace is going to have to realize that their good intentions are actually harmful to a lot of people. :[ It's a weird, transitional period but.. Japan's changing. Little by little.

I'm aware that this is isn't necessarily the way everyone in the world is thinking- but I can't help but assume that "Living in Country X + Not being a tourist = Speaking the language of Country X." That's true juuuust about everywhere in the world, no? Excluding only exceptions to the rule.

Aikynaro Wrote:There's obviously no malice in the Japanese tendency to speak English with 'foreign-looking' people. 'Racism' seems like the wrong word - the connotation is too negative and is caught up in the race relationship issues of other cultures.
But nonetheless, it's racial profiling and that makes people uncomfortable for good reason.

Racism is rooted in ignorance, and the term absolutely fits the situation. The reason they're using English with foreigners is because Japanese are operating from the baseline perception that only real Japanese can be Japanese, which entails that non-Japanese are incapable of understanding Japanese, which leads down a bunch of winding paths--one of which terminates at "Always speak English to foreigners."

drdunlap Wrote:I'm gonna go ahead and just throw this out there but...
Kirin's new limited edition シークヮーサー STRONG酎ハイ is pretty delightful.

How can you drink that garbage? I bought a Costoco membership this year and I've really been enjoying their 24 packs of Kirkland "handcrafted" beers. What would have been merely passable in the U.S. has become amazing in Japan now that I've had nothing but Asahi for two years. They've got a decent IPA, an awesome pale ale, an awesome amber ale, and a pretty crappy lager in a 24 bottle case for $40. I also bought a gallon of salsa.

afterglowefx Wrote:Cost of amendment of civil code regarding LGBT rights: $0.

i guess you might be right. you really can't do much with $0 that goes into financing LGBT organisations and campaigns.

afterglowefx Wrote:

drdunlap Wrote:I'm gonna go ahead and just throw this out there but...
Kirin's new limited edition シークヮーサー STRONG酎ハイ is pretty delightful.

How can you drink that garbage? I bought a Costoco membership this year and I've really been enjoying their 24 packs of Kirkland "handcrafted" beers. What would have been merely passable in the U.S. has become amazing in Japan now that I've had nothing but Asahi for two years. They've got a decent IPA, an awesome pale ale, an awesome amber ale, and a pretty crappy lager in a 24 bottle case for $40. I also bought a gallon of salsa.

Because chuhai is a tasty thing. Especially considering its price. If you like juice, you'll probably like chuhai. Did I mention it's cheap?

I don't know anything about Kirkland "handcrafted" beers but they probably don't compare to craft beer in Japan these days. Recently, Japanese craft beer is pretty amazing. That's my main deal- but with the liquor tax + the beer tax + the general expensiveness of Japan I can't afford to drink that every day.. so I save it for when I'm out and about, going to events, doing home parties, feeling lonely.. etc etc.

#unrelatedrant

But no, really, flavor is my deal. If it doesn't taste good- I don't put it in my mouth.
シークヮーサーSTRONG酎ハイ is goodstuff.

drdunlap Wrote:I don't know anything about Kirkland "handcrafted" beers but they probably don't compare to craft beer in Japan these days. Recently, Japanese craft beer is pretty amazing.

シークヮーサー is what I go for when I'm already smashed and wandering the streets at 4am. It's that point where one really ought to stop, but through your blurred vision you somehow recognize 9% alcohol for 100 yen and wow that's a pretty picture of a lemon. It never ends well.

Is there like some magical place where this Japanese craft beer can be bought? I went to Beer Fes in Ebisu Gardens last year and tried some really amazing beer (and some really strange beer), so I know that they're around. It's just that here in the sticks the only thing I ever see on the shelves is the usual plus maybe Corona or something. Oh and sometimes a funny little beer called 水曜日のネコ, a Belgian, which I really like but can't reliably find. Anyway yeah, tips appreciated. I spent my uni days in the PNW and I'm used to grocery stores stocking dozens and dozens of craft beers.

umetani666 Wrote:

afterglowefx Wrote:Cost of amendment of civil code regarding LGBT rights: $0.

i guess you might be right. you really can't do much with $0 that goes into financing LGBT organisations and campaigns.

That's private funding.

afterglowefx Wrote:Is there like some magical place where this Japanese craft beer can be bought?

In order of least to most expensive: Yamaya, bars, and beer events.