I was reading this post: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...#pid202594

It's about a Chinese person who decided to learn the Japanese language despite the anti-Japanese household he/she was raised in.

Knowing how nationalist the Chinese can be (one nation under heaven etc), I find the above situation ironically funny. For a Chinese person to learn a foreign language like Japanese is pretty much the epitome of treason. It's the ultimate "betrayal" to your race and/or nation. Even the same concept (two countries, one China) applies to how the Mandarin and Cantonese languages (or in their opinion, one languahe, two "dialects") are treated. I guess English is an exception since it's the world language and because many countries speak it (not just the Chinese people's 2nd most hated enemy: the British), and because Chinese people have a "reputation" for being "pragmatic" (we hate Britian but we might as well learn the language of the enemy because it serves our cause).

Did anyone else experience a similar situation? Not just Chinese Japan-haters, Western ones too. Maybe you're the son of an American soldier or the descendant of a South East Asian "comfort woman." How did your anti-Japanese friends, family or coworkers react when you found out you were learning the enemy's language? How did you react to their reactions? How did they react to your reaction to their initial reaction?

And on the flipside: are there anyone here who is learning Japanese BECAUSE of your hatred towards Japan? For example, maybe you want to work in Japan and secretly steal information as a spy and send it back to the CCP. Or even get a high and influential position and make decisions that hurt Japan as a country (economically etc) and by extension, give politicial leverage to China.

I don't have any reliable sources but I read on the Internet that some Chinese men are learning Japanese for the purpose of having sexual intercourse with Japanese women. The idea is that many years ago, the Japanese army came to China and had sex with/raped the local Chinese women, so they will return the favor. Does this have any basic in reality or is it just an urban myth? Excluding the rape obviously, that certainly won't fly in this day and age. Or to be more precise, it won't fly in 1st world countries (obviously places like Africa and India are still full of rape but they get a "pass" because they're underdeveloped and impoverished).

Were I ever unfortunate enough to be sharing the same conversational air-space as somebody blatantly stupid enough to mention such atrocious generalizations as "I hate this entire country for X reason and Y events" (substitute country with race/sexual orientation/culture/whatever) I'd promptly leave for some fresher air.

As a matter of fact I did. I grew up in rural Pennsylvania, an area not exactly known for it's enlightenment and culture, and left as soon as I could. I hardly speak to my own sister because she has a propensity for statements like the above.

Regarding the second half of your post, you've got to be joking. Learning Japanese for espionage or some sort of sexual vendetta? Come on.

[Mod edit - In reference to a second deleted post from qwertyytrewq]

"J**" is a racial slur, can we not use it, please?

Fillanzea Wrote:"J**" is a racial slur, can we not use it, please?

qwertyytrewq's post has been removed for the use of racial slurs. qwertyytrewq, feel free to repost it without the offensive language.

Posters - please refrain from all use of racial, sexist, or homophobic slurs on this board. Thank you.

Firstly, for those that read my deleted post, you would know that I only used "Jap" in the abbreviational sense, not the racial sense.

Secondly, I won't be retyping my post because I already wasted time fully retyping the now deleted post. If you wanted me to retype it, you'd at least do the courtesy of sending me a PM with my original post. I'll just do a tldr.

tl;dr: Chinese people may be immature, Chinese government may be mature. Therefore China no democracy. If China democracy then first thing China might do is invade Japan. If "immature Chinese people" hypothesis true, then "Chinese people learning Japanese in order to have sex with Japanese women as revenge for WW2 Imperial Japan" hypothesis may also be true. Ergo, the "sexual vendetta" (as afterglowefx puts it) may have some basis in reality.

Disclaimer 1: The above are opinions, not fact. Not the usage of may and might.
Diaclaimer 2: The above opinion may or may not be my opinion.
Disclaimer 3: If above opinion sounds blunt/direct, then that is the nature of tldrs.
Diaclaimer 4: The tldr was necessary due to post deletion.

Thirdly, I'm sorry but this forum is slightly too "racism card/girl that cries wolf/racism" liberal. EG calling out racism where there is none. This is the sort of liberalism that voluntarily gives material for right wingers. I suggest we turn the liberalism down just a little bit before we become the same echo chamber that social conservatives live in.

Sorry about not sending you your post - that wasn't the best way to handle it. Hopefully there is no next time, but if there if one, I'll PM you your deletion.

Opinion noted, but I won't be changing the way I moderate. I maintain zero-tolerance on racism and racist buzzwords, esp. in a thread that has high potential to become heated and racially charged.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Firstly, for those that read my deleted post, you would know that I only used "Jap" in the abbreviational sense, not the racial sense.

There's no such usage. The abbreviation is the racial slur.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:For a Chinese person to learn a foreign language like Japanese is pretty much the epitome of treason. It's the ultimate "betrayal" to your race and/or nation.

Do you have an idea of how many Chinese (and also Korean, if we want to speak of people from countries with bitter relationship with Japan) study Japanese and even go there to study? Japanese is one of the most important languages in Asia. Chinese (and Korean) textbook to learn Japanese do exists, and don't get burned in name of any nationalism.

yudantaiteki Wrote:

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Firstly, for those that read my deleted post, you would know that I only used "Jap" in the abbreviational sense, not the racial sense.

There's no such usage. The abbreviation is the racial slur.

I didn't know that. Hmm I guess I could use these snowy winter days to study some racially insulting English vocabulary.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Did anyone else experience a similar situation? Not just Chinese Japan-haters, Western ones too. Maybe you're the son of an American soldier or the descendant of a South East Asian "comfort woman." How did your anti-Japanese friends, family or coworkers react when you found out you were learning the enemy's language? How did you react to their reactions? How did they react to your reaction to their initial reaction?

For several years my grandfather was an Australian POW of the Japanese in the Second World War. My mother was a young teen when her Dad returned home. She witnessed a dramatic change in his personality; watched him literally beating his head against a wall to block out the pain, images, feelings, whatever; experienced the very gentle person she remembered from before the War as having become terribly abusive, both verbally and physically.

My grandfather died when I was a baby, so I didn't know him and don't feel any connection to him. I didn't think of him at all when I decided to study Japanese. My mother honestly tries to be very supportive of my study - e.g. sometimes she'll see a kanji on TV and try to copy it down (or hit the Record button) to show it to me later and see if I know what it is. We don't even live in the same town, so I think that's lovely of her.

But every now and then little comments are made, and my mother cannot hide the fact that that it hurts her greatly that, of all the languages I could study, I chose Japanese. She says she could "NEVER forgive them" - for her it would be a betrayal of her father for her to forgive people who hurt him so much. Emotionally, she is incapable of making a distinction between the Japanese military leaders and the practices of that time and Japanese people today. And if it was MY DAD, I suspect I would feel the same way, even if intellectually I could make the distinction.

Like many people on this site, I'm pretty obsessed / enthusiastic about 日本語、and I just have to try and be sensitive enough to reign in my enthusiasm sometimes and remember that for my mother, every time I mention Japanese, she thinks of her Dad...

My Filipino grandfather was rounded up with others who had been out past curfew and was almost shot to death by Japanese soldiers. He only escaped death because they found out he was the nephew of the mayor (the Japanese wanted the cooperation of the local government). Everyone else was shot dead. He told me he'd never forget running back home through the jungle that night.

Despite his experience, he never had hard feelings towards Japanese people. He explained to me that it doesn't make sense to blame an entire people for what only a handful of soldiers did during one of the most brutal wars of all time. He also acknowledged that more or less every country acted disgracefully during the war.

I started dating my Japanese wife while he was still alive. He was so happy and proud of us from when he met her until he passed away. He was truly a great person, and I like to think that I inherited my moral compass from him.

yudantaiteki Wrote:There's no such usage. The abbreviation is the racial slur.

No, the abbreviation is used all the time, especially by Japanese people who don't even know about the racial slur.

The only place where it's ever actually been used as a slur is probably the US. It's like when Americans go around the world getting offended if they see someone in blackface. Little do they realize that not every nation shares their history of blackface used as a form of racist propaganda.

scarby dancer Wrote:For several years my grandfather was an Australian POW of the Japanese in the Second World War. My mother was a young teen when her Dad returned home. She witnessed a dramatic change in his personality; watched him literally beating his head against a wall to block out the pain, images, feelings, whatever; experienced the very gentle person she remembered from before the War as having become terribly abusive, both verbally and physically.

My grandfather died when I was a baby, so I didn't know him and don't feel any connection to him. I didn't think of him at all when I decided to study Japanese. My mother honestly tries to be very supportive of my study - e.g. sometimes she'll see a kanji on TV and try to copy it down (or hit the Record button) to show it to me later and see if I know what it is. We don't even live in the same town, so I think that's lovely of her.

But every now and then little comments are made, and my mother cannot hide the fact that that it hurts her greatly that, of all the languages I could study, I chose Japanese. She says she could "NEVER forgive them" - for her it would be a betrayal of her father for her to forgive people who hurt him so much. Emotionally, she is incapable of making a distinction between the Japanese military leaders and the practices of that time and Japanese people today. And if it was MY DAD, I suspect I would feel the same way, even if intellectually I could make the distinction.

Like many people on this site, I'm pretty obsessed / enthusiastic about 日本語、and I just have to try and be sensitive enough to reign in my enthusiasm sometimes and remember that for my mother, every time I mention Japanese, she thinks of her Dad...

WW2 was a fairly global event. Hence the name. Almost everyone has family members who were in some way harmed during it. If we all had the attitude "It's understandable to hate nation X because of what happened in WW2", WW2 would still be going on.

But it's not. It's over. The people with the dumb ideas lost, and they abandoned those ideas(except for the Communists, of course, they just went on perpetuating their irrationality and killing tens of millions).

Those who committed crimes on the losing side were punished, or died off. We can move on. There's no excuse for not being able to figure that out, no matter what happened to you, your parents, grandparents, or anyone else.

Eh, it's very much a racial slur in Australia. It's strongly tied up with feelings from WW2 though, so it wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't known of in other countries. It's a pretty natural abbreviation to make - I've seen people say it and then correct themselves.

I think my grandmother went through quite a bit of cognitive dissonance when I told her I was going to Japan, but she's managed to draw a line between modern Japan and Japan-when-that-evil-bastard-Hirohito-was-in-charge. Apparently my grandfather liked it when he was serving in the occupation forces so that helps but still - there's a lot of 'can never forgive what the Japanese did' sentiment in Australia and I can't really blame anyone who lived through that era for that.

Ephel Wrote:Do you have an idea of how many Chinese (and also Korean, if we want to speak of people from countries with bitter relationship with Japan) study Japanese and even go there to study?

Yes I do actually. The majority of people taking JLPT N1 tests are Chinese.

Ephel Wrote:Japanese is one of the most important languages in Asia. Chinese (and Korean) textbook to learn Japanese do exists, and don't get burned in name of any nationalism.

Sorry, I don't get understand the point you're trying to make. Do some C-people want to learn Japanese? Sure. Do some C-people view learning Japanese as an act of betrayal/treason? Sure. They're not mutually exclusive.

Other J-things do get burned though. In 2011, J-cars (with C-people forced out of their J-cars), J-restaurants and others.

scarby dancer Wrote:My mother honestly tries to be very supportive of my study - e.g. sometimes she'll see a kanji on TV and try to copy it down (or hit the Record button) to show it to me later and see if I know what it is.

That's nice that she is neither disapproving nor even neutral.

vileru Wrote:Despite his experience, he never had hard feelings towards Japanese people. He explained to me that it doesn't make sense to blame an entire people for what only a handful of soldiers did during one of the most brutal wars of all time. He also acknowledged that more or less every country acted disgracefully during the war.

That's nice that despite his past experiences, he was able to overcome his emotions and arrive at a rational position (and arguably, the right one).

Speaking of Filipinos, don't they (the Phillipines) have an overall relatively more positive view of Japan compared to other Asian countries (who have a stronger hate for Japan)?

Stansfield123 Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:There's no such usage. The abbreviation is the racial slur.

No, the abbreviation is used all the time, especially by Japanese people who don't even know about the racial slur.

The only place where it's ever actually been used as a slur is probably the US. It's like when Americans go around the world getting offended if they see someone in blackface. Little do they realize that not every nation shares their history of blackface used as a form of racist propaganda.

That's funny because I was just watching a popular/mainstream 1990s Chinese comedy movie and a guy was choosing prostitutes. One of them was black (despite the setting being feudal China) and the guy, who apparently is not sexually attracted to black woman, thought for a second and then said "I'll take her anyway, I can't see her with the lights off"

Would that fly in a 1990s Hollywood movie in America?

Stansfield123 Wrote:But it's not. It's over. The people with the dumb ideas lost, and they abandoned those ideas

Which ideas are you referring to?

Stansfield123 Wrote:(except for the Communists, of course, they just went on perpetuating their irrationality and killing tens of millions).

This isn't a stain on communism though. The reason tens of millions of people died was because their dictatorship leaders (Mao, Pol Pot etc) were irrational. Similarly, millions died not because Mao and Pol Pot were atheists, but because they were irrational. If they were good rational dictators, they would implement communism properly (classless society, workers owning the means of production etc).

Stansfield123 Wrote:Those who committed crimes on the losing side were punished, or died off. We can move on. There's no excuse for not being able to figure that out, no matter what happened to you, your parents, grandparents, or anyone else.

If my knowledge of history is correct, the US actually didn't punish the J-emperor and the important figures. Quite the contrary, the US let some of the J-generals and Nazis off so that the US can benefit from the inhumane human experimentation research (Unit 731 etc).

Like vileru's grandfather says, "more or less every country acted disgracefully during the war." In this case, a country (USA) acted disgracefully after the war.

Aikynaro Wrote:there's a lot of 'can never forgive what the Japanese did' sentiment in Australia and I can't really blame anyone who lived through that era for that.

As long as they don't get influential positions in Government with decision making power, then they have the freedom to think whatever they want. We need clear rational heads, not vengeance-seeking minds clouded by emotion.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:This isn't a stain on communism though. The reason tens of millions of people died was because their dictatorship leaders (Mao, Pol Pot etc) were irrational. Similarly, millions died not because Mao and Pol Pot were atheists, but because they were irrational. If they were good rational dictators, they would implement communism properly (classless society, workers owning the means of production etc).

Argh.

One of my cousins (rather, cousin-in-law) is of Chinese descent. She has found she enjoys anime, but recently divulged to me that while she would like to study Japanese her family would definitely disapprove. Her father was directly affected by WW2 and so he is rather anti-Japanese.

I remember when the earthquake happened and my husband's company had an event to raise money for charity. One of his Chinese friends refused to attend! Even worse...that guy was born way after WW2 ended. Blind hatred frustrates me, but even good/nice people can be stubborn about that kind of stuff.

My grandfather fought against the Japanese in the Philippines and almost died. Surprisingly, he didn't seem to hold a grudge against them. I think he realized that they were soldiers just like him and he admired their tenacity. Though...he did use that abbreviated derogatory term whenever he talked about them...but with no hate in his voice. I think that's just what the American soldiers called them at the time and it became a bad habit for him after the war (I'm sure some soldiers DID use it in the derogatory sense, but not my grandfather). Luckily he lived in a place where there weren't any Japanese to take offense!

(Now that I think about it...I'm pretty sure I used that term when I wrote a short story in elementary school based on my grandfather's experience in WW2...I was too naive at the time to realize it was a bad word!!! I wonder what my teacher thought!?)

When my grandfather found out I was learning Japanese he seemed interested in how I was studying instead of upset. He even asked if I was learning via Rosetta Stone.

I feel lucky that my parents don't care. In fact, they are quite supportive even though they don't understand why I like it. They just want me to be happy and do things I enjoy. A couple years ago we even went to Japan because they knew I was interested in the culture.

One reason why some older people (in the US) may not be resentful is that the US government and the occupation forces wanted to build up Japan as quickly as possible to have a strong ally against the Soviet Union in the Cold War. They tried as hard as they could to get people to view Japan as a country of well-meaning people who were misled by a corrupt system of Emperor worship and a few hard line militant generals who got executed. This pretty much had already started even before Japan's surrender.

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Knowing how nationalist the Chinese can be (one nation under heaven etc), I find the above situation ironically funny.

Well the the pledge of allegiance (which is recited every morning at schools across the US) says that America as "one nation under God".

Quote:"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

chamcham Wrote:

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Knowing how nationalist the Chinese can be (one nation under heaven etc), I find the above situation ironically funny.

Well the the pledge of allegiance (which is recited every morning at schools across the US) says that America as "one nation under God".

Quote:"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

It was actually only officially added to 'The Pledge of Allegiance' in 1953 (it was unofficially used by certain people before then). On the rare occasion that I have to recite the Pledge, I omit that part, partially because I'm not a believer and partially because I think it destroys the idea of a republic based on the ideals of liberty and religious freedom (forcing people of different faiths to say 'under God' gives a pretty bad impression of what your country thinks of religions other than Christianity, especially when they're just trying to get citizenship).

jishera Wrote:I remember when the earthquake happened and my husband's company had an event to raise money for charity. One of his Chinese friends refused to attend! Even worse...that guy was born way after WW2 ended. Blind hatred frustrates me, but even good/nice people can be stubborn about that kind of stuff.

That's unfortunate. When China suffered some earthquakes several years ago, I don't remember any similar behavior from the Japanese. Quite the contrary, they were sympathetic and supportive. Popular Japanese porn star Sora Aoi was a notable figure whose public condolences about the disaster were generally received well by the Chinese. Granted, maybe it was positively received mainly due to her being popular among Chinese J-porn fans. I dunno.

yudantaiteki Wrote:One reason why some older people (in the US) may not be resentful is that the US government and the occupation forces wanted to build up Japan as quickly as possible to have a strong ally against the Soviet Union in the Cold War. They tried as hard as they could to get people to view Japan as a country of well-meaning people who were misled by a corrupt system of Emperor worship and a few hard line militant generals who got executed. This pretty much had already started even before Japan's surrender.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend perhaps? Apparently the US dropped the bombs on Japan not because (or not mainly because) to beat Japan, but to send a message to the Russians ('we got bombs and we'll use them').

I wonder who Americans hate more these days: Russians or Japanese?

chamcham Wrote:

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Knowing how nationalist the Chinese can be (one nation under heaven etc), I find the above situation ironically funny.

Well the the pledge of allegiance (which is recited every morning at schools across the US) says that America as "one nation under God".

Quote:"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Well, China and the US are the most nationalist countries on Earth...

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Apparently the US dropped the bombs on Japan not because (or not mainly because) to beat Japan, but to send a message to the Russians ('we got bombs and we'll use them').

Actually, one of the more sensible (and widely accepted) reason for the bombs is halfway there: to keep the Russian out of the negotiation for Japan's surrender. Russia had just entered into war with Japan (just a little time before the bombs) and the US needed Japan to surrender quickly so that the small effort of Russia in Japan would not be enough to let them ask for anything.

Japan would have been beaten anyway, but if the war went on a few months more the Russian could have had a say in what would happen of Japan next.

(Hope my English was clear, I'm quite sure it wasn't -.-)

The term "J*p" (do I really need to censor it?) shouldn't be any more offensive than "Brit."

But alas...

Ephel Wrote:

qwertyytrewq Wrote:Apparently the US dropped the bombs on Japan not because (or not mainly because) to beat Japan, but to send a message to the Russians ('we got bombs and we'll use them').

Actually, one of the more sensible (and widely accepted) reason for the bombs is halfway there: to keep the Russian out of the negotiation for Japan's surrender. Russia had just entered into war with Japan (just a little time before the bombs) and the US needed Japan to surrender quickly so that the small effort of Russia in Japan would not be enough to let them ask for anything.

Japan would have been beaten anyway, but if the war went on a few months more the Russian could have had a say in what would happen of Japan next.

(Hope my English was clear, I'm quite sure it wasn't -.-)

In hindsight, I wonder if it would have served America's interests if they bombed Russia directly rather than proxy bomb them, considering Russia is still on America's Axis of Evil and Japan is USA's friend. Or give one bomb to Japan and the other to Russia.

Of course, the Japan of today is largely a result of America's past actions so who knows what this alternate reality might loom like.

toshiromiballza Wrote:The term "J*p" (do I really need to censor it?) shouldn't be any more offensive than "Brit."

But alas...

To be more precise, both Jap and Brit can be racist as well as not racist. It depends on the context (I love Brit food! vs F****** Brits). Jap (pun intended) language learners, of all people, should understand the importance of context so that's why I was disappointed at my post deletion.

toshiromiballza Wrote:The term "J*p" (do I really need to censor it?) shouldn't be any more offensive than "Brit."

But alas...

I recently heard a bit by John Mulvaney, and he argues with a person who says that "the word midget is just as bad as the N-word." To which Mulvaney replied, "No it's not. And you know why? We're saying midget, we're not even saying the N-words. If you are arguing about which of two words is worse, and you won't even say one of them, that one's worse."

And of course, here you censor the J word, and not Brit. And you won't find internet threads about the word Brit being offensive, because it's not. Historical context and social consensus are the reason one of those words is considered bad, and the other simply curt.