I swear to God half the words in the entire Japanese language are made up from the sounds:

しょう
じょう
しゅう
か
けい
かい
かん
きゅう
きょう
こう
ほう

And if any of thousands of words made up exclusively of these sounds (there are thousands) pop up in my vocab, it's practically guaranteed that I'll struggle with it.

Seriously, I have been actively studying 教会 for ... like 8 months. I can use it effortlessly, recall it instantly, spot it in sentences, all no problem. But if I hear it in isolation, every single time, I fail it. Same for 方向, 計画, and a bunch of others. I don't even fail the cards anymore, it's just not worth it studying words I already know for months.

Am I the only one to be going crazy over this?

Nope. You've got to remember though that Japanese has a MUCH more limited range of phonemes than English. It makes for a whole hell of a more more homonyms than English has... and yes, it drives people nuts.

That's what happens when you borrow words from a tonal language with more sounds, get rid of the tones, and collapse some of the sounds into one.

Quote:I can use it effortlessly, recall it instantly, spot it in sentences, all no problem. But if I hear it in isolation, every single time, I fail it.

I'm not seeing what the problem is.

I'm sitting here doing my Core6k reps. I just failed the listening recognition card for 行動 for about the fourth time this morning. I've been studying the word for months! And it's not like my retention is crap, I'm a damned good student, all my decks have retention rates in the area of 98-99%, it's just ridiculous.

Given the tiny number of phonemes, as you point out, it's little wonder Japanese pronunciation of foreign languages is so crap!

yudantaiteki Wrote:I'm not seeing what the problem is.

Just frustrating to fail words that you know. I guess as far as practical usage it's not a very big problem. Even if you hear them in isolation "in the wild" you still ought to have some context to go by.

like you said don't study those words via anki. it's a waste of time since you can spend that time doing something else that's more... effective... go encounter the words in the wild in context and ti'll be effortless to remember it.

for one thing, learn japanese from song lyrics with rikai-chan. there's mad stuff with japanese subs now-a-days but be picky in what you watch because the reason you're watchingx drama or x anime shouldn't be solely because it has japanese subtitles.

howtwosavealif3 Wrote:like you said don't study those words via anki. it's a waste of time since you can spend that time doing something else that's more... effective... go encounter the words in the wild in context and ti'll be effortless to remember it.

for one thing, learn japanese from song lyrics with rikai-chan. there's mad stuff with japanese subs now-a-days but be picky in what you watch because the reason you're watchingx drama or x anime shouldn't be solely because it has japanese subtitles.

I honestly consume zero Japanese media, I've never watched a single drama or anime, never picked up a manga, never listened to the radio or downloaded a single Japanese song. I'm picky enough about music in English, finding stuff I like in Japanese would be almost impossible. And not to offend half the board, but the vast majority of manga and anime is tripe.

Most of my real-world practice comes from being shut in with Japanese kids determined to use as little English as possible for 5 hours a day. Like I said I don't have too much trouble in the wild (and those little bastards really are wild), it just kills me during the vocab acquisition phase when these words just refuse to stick. Or after I already know that I know them, only to fail them repeatedly for no good reason.

So one hundred percent of the media of that you consume is english? Do u have a reason for learning japanese besides I want to learn japanese ? To rephrase, what do you enjoy doing in japanese or what do you hope to do in japanese ?

Now that I think about it you don't seem to understand the concept of anki. It's to lengthen your memory not form them

Quote:And not to offend half the board, but the vast majority of manga and anime is tripe.

...like any other form of media.

Yeah, it's going to be hard getting very far with Japanese if you eschew all media and aren't interested in the culture. Kids aren't the best role models for language learning.

howtwosavealif3 Wrote:So one hundred percent of the media of that you consume is english? Do u have a reason for learning japanese besides I want to learn japanese ? To rephrase, what do you enjoy doing in japanese or what do you hope to do in japanese ?

One hundred percent of the media is in English, but because I live in Japan 90% of my life is in Japanese. Hell I even teach English in Japanese. I have no great love of the Japanese language, it's more a battle for person-hood than a hobby. I was tired of having the expressive abilities of an infant. Now I can communicate about as well as a five year-old (which isn't too bad, really, five year-olds are conversational!), and it's still nowhere near good enough. I study because I have to, really.

Anyway, 4-5 hours a day of intensive Japanese speaking/comprehension training is probably better than passive media consumption--although I can't really say for sure. Once I finish Core6k I'll buy a TV and start watching Japanese shows, but to be honest Japanese programming is really, really grating at times. Just a bunch of men talking while the ladies all collectively gasp 「えぃぃぃぃ！！すごい！」 over and over again.

EDIT: Yeah, I'm starting to see that. I've found writing out new vocab and active review after studying helps a lot, but those damned homophones kill me regardless!

dizmox Wrote:

Quote:And not to offend half the board, but the vast majority of manga and anime is tripe.

...like any other form of media.

Yeah, it's going to be hard getting very far with Japanese if you eschew all media and aren't interested in the culture. Kids aren't the best role models for language learning.

Oh, for sure, but manga/anime is doubly burdened by the fact that it's media largely intended for children/teens.

And trust me, I know, I'm fast reaching a level where I understand 90% of what kids are talking about but adults confuse the hell out of me. That could be my limited vocab, as well, though. After Core6k, like I mentioned above, I hope to buy a TV and start on reading. However, from the onset, my number one goal has been conversational ability/listening comprehension, and every month I see major, major improvements in that department.

Quote:Oh, for sure, but manga/anime is doubly burdened by the fact that it's media largely intended for children/teens.

That's not true, people of all ages watch manga/read anime, and the industry targets consumers accordingly.

Just watch lots of TV and movies I guess, yeah. Everyday conversation is too simple to really get that good I think. The range of vocabulary that gets used is usually too limited.

Quote:Oh, for sure, but manga/anime is doubly burdened by the fact that it's media largely intended for children/teens.

As above - that's not true.
But equally, life is a lot easier if you can cultivate a healthy appreciation for children's media and there is a lot of high-quality Japanese children's shows, manga, novels, etc. out there that's quite entertaining. Don't write it off before you try it.

afterglowefx Wrote:[...]And not to offend half the board, but the vast majority of manga and anime is tripe.

Once you find a few enjoyable aspects it becomes easier to find other stuff that interests you

Like how a girlfriend might make a guy interested in "trying new things".
(Insert guru talk about getting used to it)

For you guys in Japan, come on, take a look at the Japanese you see reading manga--nine out of ten are NEET's and truckers (and not the cool truckers, either). Sure, there's a massive amount of it and I'm sure there's stuff for all ages. But the vast majority is aimed at teens and under and it does not enjoy wide respect among Japanese as a media form for adults.

Those sounds drive me nuts. You are not alone there. On the slightly offtopic discussion on Manga: I'd agree most are aimed at kids. I still love some series and some just aren't for kids.

afterglowefx Wrote:For you guys in Japan, come on, take a look at the Japanese you see reading manga--nine out of ten are NEET's and truckers (and not the cool truckers, either). Sure, there's a massive amount of it and I'm sure there's stuff for all ages. But the vast majority is aimed at teens and under and it does not enjoy wide respect among Japanese as a media form for adults.

That's funny because I do see a lot of businessmen and older people reading through the latest issue of some serialized comic on the train quite often. Do adults strictly read only manga? No. Many read [light] novels as well.

If you don't like or can't find a single (seinen) manga you like, then your best bet for media would be to just look into novels then.

afterglowefx Wrote:For you guys in Japan, come on, take a look at the Japanese you see reading manga--nine out of ten are NEET's and truckers (and not the cool truckers, either). Sure, there's a massive amount of it and I'm sure there's stuff for all ages. But the vast majority is aimed at teens and under and it does not enjoy wide respect among Japanese as a media form for adults.

I don't know about out in the wilderness of Gunma*, but in Tokyo you see normal people reading manga on trains all the time.
I've encountered plenty of very normal people who like anime in various contexts. We talked about stuff like Psycho Pass and Madoka Magia. I went and saw the 3rd Madoka movie on opening day in Shinjuku and it was full of basically normal looking people.

Anime has a geek-stigma, sure, but manga is mainstream and completely acceptable for adults. Walk into a Book-Off and squeeze through all the people reading in public. By and large they're normal looking adults.
If you can't find any manga you like you aren't looking hard enough - the range of genres and target-audiences for manga is huge. It's like saying you hate all movies because they're all aimed at people who just want to watch big explosions - sure, those movies are pretty prominent but it's a trivial matter to find movies that don't fit that description.

Also, didn't you say before that you've never read any manga or seen any anime? How have you managed to form the opinion you have?

*(I lived in Takasaki for a year - I have the right to talk shit about it )

afterglowefx Wrote:Anyway, 4-5 hours a day of intensive Japanese speaking/comprehension training is probably better than passive media consumption--although I can't really say for sure. Once I finish Core6k I'll buy a TV and start watching Japanese shows, but to be honest Japanese programming is really, really grating at times. Just a bunch of men talking while the ladies all collectively gasp 「えぃぃぃぃ！！すごい！」 over and over again.

EDIT: Yeah, I'm starting to see that. I've found writing out new vocab and active review after studying helps a lot, but those damned homophones kill me regardless!

tv shows should be really helpful. Talk/variety shows are fun to watch and it is daily conversation/common japanese and since you live in japan you should be able with japanese subs which makes it all that more easier to watch. there's many different tv shows so i'm sure you can find one that really interests you.i recommend god tongue,hanseikai, and ame talk... here's kireonna juku

afterglowefx Wrote:take a look at the Japanese you see reading manga--nine out of ten are NEET's and truckers (and not the cool truckers, either).

What??? How can you live in Japan and get kind of this idea?

Quote:But the vast majority is aimed at teens

The vast majority of shows' success depends on BD purchases by relatively affluent 20-40s males.

Quote:and under and it does not enjoy wide respect among Japanese as a media form for adults.

Normally people watch things for enjoyment rather than trying to garner respect from others. I don't think you'll get much more from sitting in front of variety television or dorama at any rate.

Maybe I've gotten sensitive to this from a previous discussion where someone seemed to be under the belief that being an anime/manga fan in Japan will cause you to become a scorned, marginalized member of society with few or no friends. That is not the reality in the slightest.

Anyway sorry for derailing.

There's a Core6k Anki deck with clozed deleted sentences. You could just study with that (by putting the sentence in the question, along with the translation, and the missing word in the answer - in other words, produce the missing word, instead of the translation).

That would solve your homonyms problem (trust me, it would, I study this way, and homonyms are not an issue). It would create a synonyms problem (where you don't know which word fits), but that's not as big a deal.

Sorry for the off topic but I think if there is something which make one a neet is to junge an entire category of people by generalizations and hearsay... It's like to say all americans or europeans who watch the Simpsons or Family Guy, or who read comics like Superman etc.. are childish. In fact 90% of american and european mainstream media have a low level of maturity in content. Let's think about realities full of vulgarity and people who beat eachother... or the average hollywood comedies full with banality and mediocre plots. And adults watch them every day, so... I do think anime like Monster are far more mature and smart than movies like those: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_in_film

And I don't think reading something targeted for 20yo by an adult is something bad o to feel ashamed for... There is nothing wrong, adults do stupid and childish things all the time, and categorizing and label other people is one of those things...

Look here, I think almost all members of the forum likes manga and anime, and is stupid to automatically think they are neet... in fact I see only great people here, everyone in his individuality

For the homophone problem, I think that it's impossible to get a card right if you're just hearing the problem word in isolation; I mean, it is homophones you're having problems with.
The only thing I can suggest is using audio with the word in context, so that your brain gets used to understanding which word is which from context.
Of course, I say that, but it seems like you can already do that? If you're at a conversational level, I assume that listening/speaking isn't really a problem, so long as most of the words are part of your vocabulary.
I have very little experience with speaking and listening, but I don't confuse homophones in kana only text (when I have to read it) as long as I understand the rest of the sentence enough to guess which word is being used.

As for the media consumption derail topic, I can't agree with you at all. I can understand if generic anime and manga just aren't for you, but I can't believe that there is absolutely nothing there that you'll enjoy, especially if you expand your searches to novels, games, and dramas.
Just skipping past the argument that much of it is aimed at adults (since it's already been given), there are some pretty good stories that are primarily aimed at children, in both Japanese and English. Even now I still occasionally read a book from the "children's" or "teens'" section of the store (sometimes their classifications aren't particularly accurate, since they go by publisher); I've enjoyed the works of Joseph Delaney and Brandon Mull (well, 'Fablehaven' and 'Beyonders' were good; I haven't read his other books); their works don't even seem to try capturing an adult audience, yet they're still enjoyable enough for me to drop $10+ on to own each book. While these next examples are kind of cheating, you have to admit that they are aimed at children or teenagers: 'Harry Potter' and Christopher Paolini's 'Inheritance' series (Eragon and its sequels); these are found in the children's and teens' section of the bookstore respectively and are both highly acclaimed by readers of all ages (even if they get too much hype sometimes).

I'm not going to bother giving Japanese examples, because I have no idea of your tastes and that wasn't really the point; I just want to show you that there are a lot of things out there and that 'for kids' doesn't immediately mean 'undeserving of older readers'.
Don't dismiss the entirety of the creative media just because you have a shallow view of it ("it's all [negative, confining adjective phrase here]"); sure, each medium might have its tropes, but even 'that one site' about tropes reminds its readers that "tropes aren't inherently bad".

Alternatively, you could just read a lot of news or stick to historical fiction or educational books, but it's boring to only read one thing and it stunts your mental and linguistic growth.

Those sounds are not the same; not even close. じょう and じゅう and けい and かい don't even sound close to identical. Work on your listening comprehension.

No working ear should have trouble easily distinguishing these sounds that are quite distinct. This is more of an issue is you not being used to listening to Japanese.

Listening comprehension has nothing to do with it.

When I say a word in isolation, no Japanese native speaker will get it. They too need context, because the language has a ton of こうかい and more than one ふくしゅう or even ぼうし、さいきん、きのう (and 変換ミス are a great source of learning. just type, convert in one sweep and see what your IME presents you). Personally, I learned a ton of funny (in that context) vocab by that alone.
This is also what makes オヤジギャグ interesting study material. It's just easy to remember that 黄身の愛は恐ろしい or 暑いゆってしまった, and there's tons of stuff like that. Look them up and learn them, you won't even need ANKI for that in many cases.
(To get them is another problem. You need to know that the original sentences would be 君の愛が恐ろしい and あっ、ついゆってしまった and be familiar enough with vocab and grammar to understand the stuff in the original)

As for Anime/Manga: There are a lot of hilarious out there, but also some pretty good ones. Dismissing them due to a generalization means you'll miss out on a lot of interesting things that make great learning material.