I might also add that I'm living here and leading a life with zero English, and even I get words wrong sometimes. Not so much when listening, but when I produce something myself.
Speaking is the hardest skill of them all, ald 在留カード sometimes comes out as ざいりょうかーど、りゅうざいかーど、りょうざいかーど, because, let's face it, it's a foreign language, very difficult from your mother tongue, with tons of homonyms and only few unique sound sequences, so this is to be expected.

This is also why doing Core slowly and only as ONE source of learning is best. Read and listen and watch shows and chat is what got me to where I am, and living here and paying attention is what will get me further.

Thread got away from me for a couple days. Never enough time when you study 6 hours a day and work full time at the same time!

The main issue for me with manga is that it is strongly associated with otaku culture. Foreigners in Japan face enough stereotypes (not all of which are undeserved), I'd prefer to sidestep that one altogether. Unfortunately for many of us the majority of white males coming to Japan are Japanophiles with an unhealthy interest in pretty much everything. It reeks of self-hatred, and the Japanese can certainly sense it. They're awkward, they didn't feel at home in their home country, and they come to Japan looking for some sort of salvation. It's embarrassing.

I dress well, I drive a nice car, I don't obsess over everything--I do my best to shake the English teacher stereotypes that so many guys coming here embrace. Because let's face it, to many Japanese, white manga/anime fans look like this guy:

Of course 90% of the people who enjoy manga are not this guy, and there are more or less acceptable forms of the media for adults. But it's widely abused and you're going to be held to the stereotype well before Japanese will. If you enjoy it, good for you, but understand what you're identifying yourself with. I happen to be an athiest and enjoy the odd video game once in a while, but you sure as hell won't find me talking about that in public. Too many awkward kids in fedoras and trench coats with MLP plush have ruined that one. Your hobbies are yours alone, but once you share them they will inform people's idea of you.

In any case I'm not too fussed about native media as it's something I can pick up anytime. Living in Japan it's not so important anyway--I get more than enough practice as is (I literally teach class in Japanese). I could drive down to the mall and buy a TV today, and once my level gets high enough I'm very interested in picking up some novels and getting into films.

For right now, I think the clozed-delete option is a good one. I run a sentence deck in parallel with the Core decks for reinforcement. I'd love to start making some clozed cards, if I ever get around to figuring out how to do it. Again, no time!

To ryuudou specifically, this isn't a problem you encounter early on. Of course the sounds are distinguishable. It's once you hit four or five thousand words that you start to get tripped up by the sheer number of words comprised of those select few sounds.

Andikaze, cheers, I sometimes lose sight of the fact that language learning is inherently hard. I beat myself up for forgetting words when I have retention rates of around 98%, which is perhaps a bit too harsh on myself eh. Regarding Japanese not understanding words in isolation, yeah, you're right there too. Any time I define a word I can almost expect to have to provide the context or the kanji or both. Maybe one of the biggest benefits of RTK for my job is I can just write the damned words now!

It's funny how you wedged all these strawmen into a discussion that started on the topic of phonetics, just to prove that you aren't one of those people.

Funny, or maybe just really really insecure. I haven't quite decided yet.

Haych Wrote:It's funny how you wedged all these strawmen into a discussion that started on the topic of phonetics, just to prove that you aren't one of those people.

Funny, or maybe just really really insecure. I haven't quite decided yet.

I didn't "strawman" anything because nobody is debating anything. What I did do was offer a bunch of stereotypes about anime and manga fans. These are not stereotypes I personally hold, but they are widely held both in Japan and in the West. This is a page devoted to learning Japanese so of course there's going to be a lot of anime and manga fans. These art forms have a wide following among Japanese (youth) and are becoming more popular overseas. However, the art form also comes with a lot of baggage that you may or may not wish to identify yourself with.

I don't care what anybody does in their free time, but for myself, for my own image and for the person I wish to be perceived as (something you are very much in control over), I'll skip it altogether. This is doubly important when you're an immigrant in a foreign country, where stereotypes are formed and stick much more quickly and with far greater force. Especially when that country is someplace as shut-in as Japan.

It sounds like you're talking from a overly western perspective. Anime/manga is not niche enough in Japan for it to carry the baggage you are talking about unless you actually do look or act like a stereotypical Akiba-kei otaku. If it were as non-mainstream as in the west then the industry wouldn't survive.

I live in Japan, I'm fluent in Japanese, I've spent time in a Japanese university and Japanese companies. I'm surrounded by all sorts of Japanese people all the time (I don't even know any westerners here outside of work), plenty of whom like 2D media. Even my hairdresser. My girlfriend's not geeky at all but watches almost anything with me. Everything you just wrote on the subject just seems like a superficial impression of reality to me.

English teachers are mostly just stereotyped as not being very integrated into Japanese society rather than being seen as otaku.

Do yo thing!
The otaku stereotype can't be denied.
(I wouldn't know if it's true, son gokus do exist but they don't define the majority of anime fans. ) If it makes any difference anime and k-drama are often considered pop culture in America.
***
: some examples of what honest strawmen might look like

I'd say "hey man just stop thinking about stereotypes".
But "just do [...]" advice are misleading.

The perceived "strawmen" probably stem from the two instances of "because, let's face it...", and the stereotypes you wish to avoid.

A wise proverb applies,

"For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." : criticism says more about one's own inhibitions

In regards to the media issue I meant to refer to any media. To enjoy one drama, book, or movie that he enjoys and eventually find similar or better things, or to find hobbies and niches in Japanese. +selectivity

Unless you're intending on being a politician or pop-culture icon, you should be able to enjoy things in your private time without it affecting your professional life. I've successfully left a good impression upon many people (in professional settings and otherwise) simply by not talking about my 'strange' hobbies. If people ask, I'm into computers and music, because I am; I'm also into manga, anime, games, and talking to random amateur linguists on the internet, along with other things that people find strange; I usually don't even mention that I'm learning Japanese unless the topic of languages comes up somehow (like today, when I was reading an NHK article during some free time and someone saw), simply because so few people can honestly believe that you can learn a language like Japanese on your own without being a weirdo (the person who saw me reading asked me if I could actually read it; it probably wasn't meant the way I heard it, but...)

Anyway, you do what you want, but the even the most successful people in the world have 'guilty pleasure'. There are at least two people in every body: the one that deals with others and the one that's around when you're by yourself; your professional self should take a nap when it's not needed, since it's unhealthy to maintain that kind of stress at all times. Unwinding with something you actually enjoy is better than doing something that other people approve of. Oh the hell I'd be in if I watched reality TV like everyone else instead of documentaries, and read 'Twilight' instead of 'The Name of the Wind' (because glittering vampires are more socially acceptable than a man that's supposedly going to die according to the first page of the book (and its sequel); and both are fantasy!).

There's a difference between reading something like 'Freezing' in the office and in your private time (only specific example I could think of at the moment; probably because I dislike the character designs (and the manga in general) so much). If you are mindful enough to consider your professional image, you should be mindful enough to decide what times and locations are acceptable for partaking in your hobbies.

I don't have anything against you avoiding this stuff yourself, but there's no reason to tell others to partake in potentially harmful activities (denying personal fulfillment). Most of us probably have enough stress without denying our own being, so if someone enjoys manga, anime, or 中二病 stories, then there's no reason for them not to partake of them when appropriate.

I'm getting an insecure vibe coming from your posts (indirectly attacking socially disadvantaged hikkikomoris who have nothing to do with you while showing off your 'nice' car, presumably an attempt to gain social approval from those who directly attack hikkikomoris). The mention of 'fedoras' also suggest that you seem to be hanging around in a toxic social environment filled with negativity from people who have nothing better to do than to subscribe to the 'stop liking things I don't like!' school of thought.

Are you sure the problem (if any) isn't more internal?

I understand what you're saying to some degree, I personally don't go around talking about my video game and anime interest unless it's with my closest friends and such, since you do get judged by some people. I know some people say that you should stand up for your interests and not be ashamed and bla bla, but in reality it can make life easier sometimes if you don't share your entire personal life with everyone. Though personally, I've noticed that at least mentioning video games as an interest doesn't seem to be a big deal nowadays, I even said it was my favourite interest at my latest job interview and still got the job.

But, having said this, there is really no reason to avoid doing it altogether, really. No one is forcing you to proclaim to the world what you are doing on your spare time. There are some really good anime shows, and I think there is something even you would like if you just gave it a chance. Among the usual stuff you also have series like Legend of the Galactic Heroes and Ghost in the Shell which could hardly be considered shows for children.

AlgoRhythmic Wrote:I understand what you're saying to some degree, I personally don't go around talking about my video game and anime interest unless it's with my closest friends and such, since you do get judged by some people.

I'd say you get judged by most, if not all people. Personally, I avoid talking about Mangas and computer games, if I don't know, whether a person interests lie in this field. Mostly, because I do not want to be associated with the stereotype. Of course you can call this insecure. I guess it is to some extend, but it is also much less of a nuisance, if you don't have to get rid of an image, which doesn't represent you.

riogray Wrote:I'd say you get judged by most, if not all people.

This is all location based though. In a country like Japan, no one is probably going to judge you as some decrepit shut-in or closet child rapist. Especially when you think about a city like Tokyo where during rush hours 30% of people are playing something like Puzzle & Dragon on their phone or any other array of things, while another 30% have their DS or PSP out and are playing a game on that. The remainder are reading a newspaper, book, or sleeping. People spend tons of time commuting in Tokyo and the other large cities with large suburbs, this is why the handheld market is HUGE here. All of this applies just as equally to manga as well (and I guess anime).

[riogray, everything after here isn't aimed at you, don't take offense.]

Seriously, this idea that anime/games/manga are socially stigmatized by the entire country, so that anyone that's not 12 and is consuming them is somehow this freak -- it doesn't fit reality or common sense.

If it was that stigmatized you wouldn't have huge ad campaigns for products with anime/manga characters on them in Lawson/7-11/etc. all across the country. You wouldn't be using manga/anime style advertisements for other stuff in general because it would harm your product image. It doesn't line up with reality. Let me show you where reality does line up. In the US there is still something of a belief that animated stuff and comics are for kids, its slowly changing, but there is still a strong belief of this. Guess what? You don't see cartoon characters advertising to adults for stuff that adults buy usually. On occasion you'll get ads where maybe bugs bunny shows up in an ad for like a car commercial, but the general reaction from the public is "Well that's different and strange."

What I'm seeing here is what qwertyytrewq pointed out, some strong insecurity, or strongly held stereotypes/beliefs about 'Japan' that afterglowefx has.

Well I can only speak from personal experience here, but

nobody around sees me as a "weirdo" for anything more than the fact that I am a gaijin.
Well yea, you can see that from a mile afar, I'm 2 heads taller than the people around me, 2 times as broad (they really are slim, aren't they?) and I have blue eyes.

Other than that, what sometimes alienates me from Japanese people, or rather say, is reason for 違和感 is the fact that I at times say things in Japanese the way I'd say them in German, which is less a Japanese language problem, but more one of cultural background. Then again, like stated above, I'm a gaijin, so I usually get away with that.

I even think that some amount of 違和感 is healthy.
We could argue night and day and still come to the conclusion that westerners are still somewhat scary for many people in huge parts of the country, and a westerner indistinguishable in behavior and language from a Japanese person surely makes one even more of a creepy guy.

However, talking with colleagues about anime or manga actually has the opposite effect. People have a topic to talk about with you, they have a way to socialize, even when they normally wouldn't. It's like 暑っ！in summer, or the どちらの方ですか that got old months ago and don't provide the same kind of interaction you want as a learner of the language.

Japanese people like manga (even more so than anime, which is indeed somewhat polarizing), and they love to talk about it. It's something you can use as a tool, because having something in common makes you appear closer to "what" they are. I hope I expressed this probably long-winded point in a manner that's easy to follow.
_________________________________________________________________________

As for your retention rates and "RealWorldJapanese™", yeah, it's not worth it to beat yourself up.
Words in ANKI will stay "words in ANKI" for quite some time, until you saw/heard them a certain amount of times outside of that, and used them successfully. This must be some kind of learning related thing.
Maybe your connections haven't grown strong enough yet - and I do mean that physically. Your brain needs to literally grow your Japanese language center and all the connections, and the more connections you add, the more stable it becomes, and that takes time ... and it seems, your brain needs to identify such an "ANKI word" as a "real word" before it becomes usable.

I experienced that myself time and time again.
I could identify something in ANKI, but not in the real world.
I could however remember that I must have learned it at some point, sometimes I was aware that this was a word I had in a deck, but I couldn't come up with it.

A few weeks or months along the way, the stuff surfaced seemingly out of nowhere and was just there when I needed it. I was very surprised sometimes and felt the need to double-check if that "knowledge was real", and it was.
It's a bit mysterious. Why do bits of Japanese go into camouflage mode for some time sometimes and come back when you least expect it?

I don't know, but what I learned from this is, to trust my brain. I don't understand the underlying mechanics well enough to exploit them, but I do know that sometimes just being patient solves problems I thought would be insurmountable.

つまり
It's no problem, just give it time and you'll see it'll work out.
Don't take my word for it, experience it yourself

vix86 Wrote:[riogray, everything after here isn't aimed at you, don't take offense.]

No worries . It's quite an interesting topic.

andikaze Wrote:Well yea, you can see that from a mile afar, I'm 2 heads taller than the people around me, 2 times as broad (they really are slim, aren't they?) and I have blue eyes.

So true. Slim and small, which makes one stand out even more. At least that was my impression last time I was in Japan.

andikaze Wrote:Other than that, what sometimes alienates me from Japanese people, or rather say, is reason for 違和感 is the fact that I at times say things in Japanese the way I'd say them in German, which is less a Japanese language problem, but more one of cultural background.

What is a German structure you accidentally use(d) often? Just so that I can avoid it

There are so many silly things, like I'd say "Keine Ursache" after someone said thanks, but you can't say it like that in Japanese. And the word 大丈夫 is kind of a killer sometimes, like when I called work to tell them I'd come a bit late because of the traffic, and when I arrived, I said 電話で連絡しましたが、ギリギリ間に合ったんで大丈夫ですよね and my boss jumped up and got angry

It's not a huge deal, but sometimes.. ^^;

vix86 Wrote:You wouldn't be using manga/anime style advertisements for other stuff in general because it would harm your product image. It doesn't line up with reality.

There is even manga on the tax forms this year to promote using eTax.

while i would agree that majority of manga are fan-servicing tripe, let's not forget that comics are an art form and as such are in no way limited to young audience. there are plenty of authors whose work, in terms of story and drawing style, have nothing to do with otaku stuff. when i decided to read manga, i asked a few of my japanese friends with good knowledge about japanese art & literature to recommend some comics and most of their recommendatons were really good.
the only problem is that these are not mainstream stuff, so you have to look hard to find it. but if you're not willing to make an effort to find what you like, then you shouldn't be complaining how everything sucks.

I didn't expect to spend the majority of the thread discussing manga, but I suppose it's obviously a hot-button issue. If you read what I said I never claimed any of you should stop reading or not engage in what you enjoy--that extends to all aspects of your lives, as it's none of my business what you do for fun and I certainly am not entitled to make overarching claims about what is universally good or bad (I can certainly make that distinction for myself, however, which is all I have been doing in this thread).

Regarding the way manga is perceived in Japan, I appreciate the input of other expats here. It's obvious we're seeing this from two different directions, and that should hardly be surprising. In cultural observation as in anything else, for everybody claiming one thing there's someone else claiming the opposite. And given the insanely, mind-blowlingly complicated nature of something as abstract and wide-reaching as 'culture', there's certainly room for both. I'm sure the reality lays somewhere in the middle. You may see normal looking people reading manga on the subway, I see grungy, overweight dudes in velcro sneakers and stained shirts reading manga at 3am at the 7/11. Your hairdresser may read it, but most of my friends find it immature at best. Like any form of media, it's obviously got both its supporters and its detractors.

As for me, It's not something I have an interest in. And like it or not, it does come with certain liabilities. If you're already engaged in the hobby, that's fine, do yo thang. But I'm not, and given the fact that I don't care about it in the first place it makes little sense to unnecessarily take on liability.

----

To the topic at hand, I've tried a couple things this week which have made an impact. I took on the advice to start closed deletion cards. I run these in parallel with my sentence deck. I have also been writing out new vocab the first and second day I see it--even going so far as filling out the furigana. This has helped not only in listening comprehension (much less 「せいけん」。。う～ん、どの「せい」？どの「けん」？), but also in general recall as well. Finished all of Step 1 in Core6k in standard order, added ~250 new words this week, and haven't really suffered at all for it. Writing sure takes a lot longer, but I think it's really been worthwhile.

Andikaze--

I do the same thing: I'll be speaking Japanese and be pretty sure I just made up a word, only to check it later and realize I either just recalled something from forever ago or stuck two new bits together that actually go together. But then I'll be trying to recall a word I've been studying for months a minute later and fail completely.

You're right about fully taking on Japanese habits and customs, by the way. Everybody in Japan has a specific social role to play, and what makes people so uncomfortable with foreigners is that they aren't quite sure where they fit into the puzzle. "Foreigner" is certainly a role--sometimes scary, usually interesting--but "foreigner acting Japanese" just doesn't compute. We operate both within and outside the system, and there's advantages and disadvantages in that. The most important thing is to make of it what you can. I can't imagine the looks you get pumping gas with blue eyes, hell I can't believe you even got the job at all!

I got the job because I went to the interview and convinced them my level would be good enough to get what people want from me (レギュラー、３千分 for example), operate the register and the other equipment and communicate with my colleagues.
I actually quit the job at the end of February, after 4 months, now I'm doing inventory for a company that sends teams to shops like Uniqlo, because the wages are better and it's inside. Those damn cold winds from Gunma were killing me
It's really only a temporary solution for me anyways, as I can't work as a 整体師 on a student visa, and I'm still waiting for the document that enables me to marry. German bureaucracy is horrible.^^

I got a decent vocab and can express anything I want, yet still in somewhat strange ways sometimes, when I have to talk around a word I don't know, and when my attempt to use the English word with katakana pronunciation fails.
This means, I'm not under pressure to learn more words quickly, so I focus on doing RTK now, after this I will be reading novels, which will familiarize me with the readings and some new vocab as a byproduct.

I might or not do Core again at that point, I actually built the complete thing with sentences, pictures and audio from the links in the deck description, and I used to use smart.fm when I started out, so the whole deck is a bit 懐かしい ^^ And when I'll do, Kanji will be my ally, I'll talk about this again a bit below.

Since I don't feel any pressure with vocabulary anymore, I just got patient enough to shrug those "words I failed after having seen them a thousand times" off. You're not alone, it's a phase we all went through. Guess it's natural.
I figured that I may lack another piece of the puzzle to this word to make it "visible".
The word still doesn't live, something is missing, and seeing it in ANKI obviously is not the thing I need.

Sometimes I look at the Kanji and try to find other words with those Kanji in it and the same pronunciation, as a mnemonic (like the example I used a bit ago, with 会計, 飲み会's かい and 計算's けい).
Works only when these Kanji do pop up in words I know, else I'd have to learn a new word, and I don't force myself to do so, as it means even more work load for my brain.

Sometimes I make a mnemonic for the word itself, when it sounds like or reminds me of something in German or English, but in like 90% of the cases I just let it go. Since I did learn it somewhat, yet not to a living, breathing, usable level, it will return to me as soon as I encounter a situation that adds the "piece of the puzzle" I need.

This doesn't mean I don't learn words I really want to keep, as I find them tremendously useful! When I encounter such a word, I write it in a post-it and stick it to a random place in my room, so my eyes will meet it again and again. This is some kind of drill maybe, but it works, and better than ANKI.

However,
the Frankenstein moment ("it lives!") can happen anytime, so don't stress yourself out You're surrounded by Japanese, and it really is only a matter of time. It WILL happen. Just don't hold your breath