Here my second topic After a couple of weeks of probing the subject of japanese to become familiar with it, I'm going finally to start the true study process

I've read here it's better not to do other things while doing RtK, especially sentences, because I still don't know the kanjis in them, and RtK introduces them in an order that make difficult the process of finding simple sentences with kanji taught first in the book.
For instance I have the Genki serie but the kanjis taught in this book are not the same of those taught in RtK.

So, do you think if I do Rtk and Genki together I'm going to do more harm than good since there will be a sort of "kanji clash" and confusion afterwards (or an overwork)?
I'm asking this because I feel I need to do something beside RtK to make it less boring and risk to kill my enthusiasm.

Another idea would be to do a simple vocabulary deck beside RtK. Nothing too complex, things like simple words I catch from anime, in hiragana and without kanji. Or maybe I can put kanji in the answers just to become familiar with the fact which that particular word can be represented with a kanji, even though I've still not encountered that kanji in RtK.

What do you think about it? Any suggestion? And about simple sentences, do you think I can do it without compromising or slowing down the RtK learning process?

Thank you very much in advance and yet again sorry for my bad english ._.

If you get bored by doing only RTK, then by all means do something else besides it. The kanji learning process is not absolute. Heisig's method is based on him not following the "rules" to begin with.

If you feel like it, then do stuff, whatever floats your boat. Try sentences if you like - feeling like you're getting confused by all those kanjis you can't decompose into elements ? Then do something else, or learn sentences with only kanjis you know. Start doing core 2K or whatever.

The bottom line is, no one can decide what the best course of action is for you. Try stuff, if it doesn't work, do something else. Exposure is always good, and any confusion it might create will sort itself out as you progress.

What I have done so far and what worked out for me, was to have Japanese lessons on the side. In these lessons we use a book which uses 99% Hiragana and the very few Kanjis, which were introduces so far, I had already covered in RtK (at least mostly).

I would probably advise against learning Kanjis both from RtK and Genki. The introduction in RtK is quite convincing in regard to this. That being said, you can always have look at the other sections of the book. I don't have a copy, but I am sure there are big parts which give grammar lessons and vocabulary (in Hira-/Katakana).

I have been taking Japanese at my university for the past year and a half and we use the Genki series in that class. I started RTK about a year ago (with some unscheduled long breaks during that time for various reasons) and at this point am about halfway through RTK. In class we cover the kanji that are assigned each chapter. While I know what Heisig says about learning kanji out of order, I never had problems learning some kanji from Genki outside of Heisig's order. In theory it's a lot of extra work, and at the beginning before you learn about radicals/primitives I would agree. However, the kanji at the beginning of Genki are fairly common/versatile kanji, and I enjoyed having these kanji at my disposal early on in my learning. It was also nice to come across familiar kanji every heisig chapter.
That being said, because I had class I was "forced" to go through Genki (I didn't mind), but I don't know that I would have gone through Genki while doing RTK if starting off with self study.
I do think that RTK is a bit dry and that some external study every now and then would be beneficial, but in the end it's up to you. At least in the beginning, Genki is all in kana/english, and even later on a lot of kanji have furigana. You might want to give it a try for a week or two and see how you feel

cophnia61 Wrote:I've read here it's better not to do other things while doing RtK, especially sentencesp

Nonsense. Maybe it works best for some people but there's nothing wrong with a hybrid approach, especially if you feel like it. Please, don't cling to RTK without doing anything else just because of those opinions, it's by no means agreed upon.

cophnia61 Wrote:So, do you think if I do Rtk and Genki together I'm going to do more harm than good since there will be a sort of "kanji clash" and confusion afterwards (or an overwork)?
I'm asking this because I feel I need to do something beside RtK to make it less boring and risk to kill my enthusiasm.

Just try to focus more on the vocab/grammar and less on the kanji (i.e. just take note of them, but don't attempt to learn new ones actively). When you've finished RTK (and even before that) the gap will start closing itself. I also suggest picking a grammar resource with less focus on kanji than Genki. Have you tried Japanese the Manga Way? I found it to be an excellent companion alongside RTK. It's also really fun and (in my opinion) easier to follow than other well-known resources like Tae Kim.

cophnia61 Wrote:Another idea would be to do a simple vocabulary deck beside RtK. Nothing too complex, things like simple words I catch from anime, in hiragana and without kanji. Or maybe I can put kanji in the answers just to become familiar with the fact which that particular word can be represented with a kanji, even though I've still not encountered that kanji in RtK.

I personally think a pre-made frequency deck like Core is more effective in the beginning in most cases, but if having a 'personal' deck early on motivates you then go for it. If it doesn't work you'll find out anyway. Don't be afraid to experiment and change your course if it doesn't work out like intended.

cophnia61 Wrote:And about simple sentences, do you think I can do it without compromising or slowing down the RtK learning process?

Maybe you'll have to compromise on RTK speed, but vocab and grammar are extremely important (obviously) so it's by no means wasted. Even more so if you're foreseeing a burnout with just RTK.

(Potential Avenues...)

・RTK might be the focus while learning a (preferably single, nonrigid) alternate.
・Genki might be the focus if you'd like to break away for a week or two (after say 200 kanji), and you'd eventually bounce back to RTK.

Be single-minded about this.
・ do this out of your own incentive and motives
・ focus on your goal
・ keep a straight method, ( :neatly arranged; not disorderly)
・ improve often
・ minimize ( :to hack away at the unessentials)

General direction...
(kanji or alternative)
(input, "flow, fun")
(output)

Deliberate Study, done in the background, is the process of internalizing kanji, words, grammar, or syntax with formal study.

Thanks all for your valuable advices! Unfortunately I already have Genki so for now I can't buy another book, but I think I'll buy "...the manga way" in the future. By the way I have already two grammar books together with Genki plus one book for particles only. I'm referring to those books whenever I don't understand something in term of grammar.

However, I'm sorry to bother you with another newbie question, but I'm finding myself in difficulty with rtk keywords. I'm only at 200 kanji circa and there are some keywords I feel, how can I say? Innaturals? And I am not able to make a story for them, neither I can find a convincing story here on koohii. I've tried to translate the keywords in italian but it's worst. I was thinking of changing some keywords but I know it can be hazardous to do it. It's pretty frustrating and I don't know what to do.

Keywords like "gall bladder", "eminent", "bull's eye", "bride", "tribute", "rule" etc.. not that I cannot make stories for them, only I can't do convincing stories with primitives for that particular keyword, becouse I don't know how to make a good story for "tribute" wirh "shellfish" and "craft". I've tried to make some and read some here, there are good in themselves but when I read "tribute" simply I am not able to recall the story. And I've spent a good time in creating and imagining them :/ maybe it's something that works over time, review after review?

Sorry if I bother you with my worries :/

Another thing, if I know a japanese word for a kanji, like "たべる" for 食, can I put it with the english keyword, like a sort of hint? Or also a simple phrase in japanese if the keyword has homophones? Or if the word I know is composed of two kanjis, and I know only one of them, like "友" in "友達" for "ともだち", I can put something like this in the keyword's field: ともだち (とも達).

This becouse if I read only "friend" I've an hard time in remembering the story in my head, instead if I read "ともだち" (or a phrase with this word), immediately I remember 友 so with time this can help me to interiorise the story.

I know 友 is not the best example 'couse it is pretty simple but it's just to get the idea

You might find this another option. I started RtK in German, because it is much easier to learn another language from your mother tongue. Anyway if that is not an option:

Concerning the keywords: You can change the keyword of a Kanji to your liking, just make sure it is not used as a keyword later on(also make sure that keyword makes sense by checking in a dictionary). Check your book or anki deck to find out, if that is or is not the case.

Concerning the hiragana to Kanji: Probeably this is not a good idea. You should create pictures for the word and not repeat them until the meaning stuck with you, keep that in mind. Also, 食べる = たべる. So the Kanji is not really the whole verb. Another thing why there are better ways.

The only purpose of RtK is to familiarize students with the Kanji, so that they can more easily use written materials for learning Japanese. It's not exactly rocket science to apply some logic to that statement, and conclude that yes, the best way to go about this is to finish RtK first, and only then start working with Kanji. It's very basic logic: you're choosing between an order that makes it easier to learn vocabulary, and an order that makes it harder.

If you're not interested in what is the logical way to do this, then by all means, don't let the "rules" restrict you. Follow the "Be a rebel, do whatever you feel like doing" advice (even though I don't think that qualifies as actual advice).

But I have a feeling that the reason why you're asking this is because you're looking for some informed, logical guidance on how to be efficient. If you wanted to do whatever you feel like, you wouldn't have bothered starting a thread about it. You can follow your whims just fine on your own.

So, with that in mind, the rational, informed answer is that you should do RtK first, and then anything else involving Kanji. You can of course do anything not involving Kanji, while doing RtK. There is no logical reason to avoid using audio, or Kana, to pick up basic vocabulary. That has nothing to do with RtK, makes no difference whether you do it before, during, or after it.

There is however a logical reason to not bother with grammar to any significant extent: grammar is best learned from written materials (materials written with Kanji). Kana only grammar is more difficult to follow, you shouldn't bother with it. So grammar should wait until after RtK too.

riogray Wrote:Also, 食べる = たべる. So the Kanji is not really the whole verb. Another thing why there are better ways.

Quick fix: to test yourself without mixing things, write (た)べる, so you'll know that the kanji contains just the "た" and is not read as "たべ" or something like that.

Stansfield123 Wrote:There is however a logical reason to not bother with grammar to any significant extent: grammar is best learned from written materials (materials written with Kanji). Kana only grammar is more difficult to follow, you shouldn't bother with it. So grammar should wait until after RtK too.

Or you could just use furigana.

Stansfield123 Wrote:There is however a logical reason to not bother with grammar to any significant extent: grammar is best learned from written materials (materials written with Kanji). Kana only grammar is more difficult to follow, you shouldn't bother with it. So grammar should wait until after RtK too.

Grammar also takes a good amount of time to sink in and much longer to internalize, so it can also be argued that putting it off basically results in a handicap. I found that having already studied basic grammar my (approx.) six RTK months helped tremendously when I switched to 100% grammar/vocab/practice post-RTK.

Studying basic vocab without grammar is just plain silly, because words are pretty much always just parts of sentences. I recall my Core reps being highly frustrating in the beginning because the example sentences were completely meaningless to me even when I knew the definitions of the words.

About the Japanese keywords: it's a good idea and I've been using it for quite some time now, but I think I started adding them to my deck only after finishing RTK. There may be unwanted side-effects if you do it early on, I'm not sure really. But experimenting with the idea on a small scale surely won't hurt.

First of all, excuse me if I don't go in detail in my response, it is not becouse I'm underestimating your help, it's only because I've never written english before... it's funny, I can understand 100% written and spoken input, but in output I'm a total ruin xD so sorry for this!

riogray Wrote:You might find this another option.

Thank you very much for taking the effort to find this! Unfortunately the anki deck is not online but the topic itself is very interesting and I'll post there a request!

riogray Wrote:Also, 食べる = たべる. So the Kanji is not really the whole verb.

Yes, I know, effectively I was thinking something like what Ephel said:

Ephel Wrote:to test yourself without mixing things, write (た)べる, so you'll know that the kanji contains just the "た" and is not read as "たべ" or something like that.

Or to put たべる in the question side, and "食 (食べる)" in the answer side, also becouse this is not meant to be the meaning of the kanji in itself, but just a keyword which approximates it. But for now I think you're right, it's too much for a starter (maybe when/if I finish RtK xD ) so I'll pass on this!

Stansfield123, I think you understood my worries! I know it can seem I'm searching someone to tell me what to do like I'm not capable to know it for myself ahaha the truth is I'm asking you because you have been in my situation in the past, and you know well the matter, so instead of going blindly, I can make treasure of your advices!

Savii, about grammar I think you're right. For sure I know vocab it's very important, but I also think a good foundation in grammar is important, because otherwise it will be intimidating and overwhelming when one goes to study the other things. In fact I'm reading repeatedly my grammars and other sourcers about particles, verbs, patterns etc..

For example, when I'm listening to a song or to a dialogue in anime, even though I understand only a handful of words, the fact I can spot particles, some verbs and cojnugations is comforting and help me to take confidence with the language. Things like being aware of the difference between 私は, 私を and 私の, or being able to understand if a verb is present or past and/or a negative verb also if I don't know the verb himself. Or if I hear an "adjective" with desu and another without it I have a general understandind of why it is so. I'm not saying one must study grammar rules from the beginning, but just knowing the overall mechanism at least at broad lines can be useful because you don't feel lost in a sea of words you don't know and you don't understand where one word finish and start the other! I'm off-topic, sorry!

In regard to RtK, I'm going to try another time from the beginning, this time I'll put more effort in the stories! Thank you all for your help!!!

What I did, before I finished rtk:
-do genki lessons (I dropped this one somewhere before the middle, but I suggest that you do 2-3/day or 0-1 if the day is busy)
-10-25 kanji/day from RTK; depending on the number of new primitives introduced & depending on the day.
-japanesepod while travelling, listening to the lessons+conversation + looking up the pdf lesson when I get home

About the 'kanji clash', I didn't worry about it. What's important for me was that I understand how sentences work. I'm currently doing Core2k + tae kim & so far it's good. Of course it still depends on the person & the available time for learning