AlgoRhythmic Wrote:Well, obviously you need to start speaking if you want to be able to speak fluently some time, but personally I prefer to build up my understanding of the language (reading and listening) before I start to speak it seriously, and I would say immersion works well for increasing these parts. Having a conversation kind of sucks if you don't understand what the other person is saying.

I'd agree. Talking wasn't half was fun when I had half of the vocab and grammar knowledge that I do now. And I enjoy reading Japanese books and listening to Japanese podcasts. It's nice having access to a world of information that was previously closed to me.

That said, with sites like italki offering cheap tutoring these days, there's a lot more opportunity to begin speaking practice even with basic vocab and grammar.

To bring this back to the OP - Xankaputo, how often do you practice speaking? Also, do you speak to yourself out loud a lot? Do you practice trying to tell interesting stories about things in your life out loud to yourself, without writing them down in Japanese? I've been finding output really helps me think directly in the language's patterns, and gets me out of the translating mindset. YMMV.

dtcamero Wrote:well played sir.

introversion is fine, but super inefficient if you want to speak to people.
the irony is that we all have to use these awful techniques, because up until a certain point a native speaker won't be willing to talk to you. But after that their lack of effectiveness becomes obvious.

there is a tendency however, stronger within people who would probably hikicomoru anyway, to think you can isolate yourself with J-culture and naturally end up speaking.
Fyi you can't, you just become adam lanza.

Not everyone is learning the language to be able to speak in fluently, at least not as their top priority. If that's what you want to do, fine, but don't project that on to other people. Some people want to be able to understand as a top priority. And if I am a hikikkomri living in my parents basement, you do realize I'm talking with people right now, right? There's this invention called the internet where you don't need to leave your basement to communicate with people. By the way, you couldn't have been any more condescending to me unless you started calling me names.

gaiaslastlaugh Wrote:To bring this back to the OP - Xankaputo, how often do you practice speaking? Also, do you speak to yourself out loud a lot? Do you practice trying to tell interesting stories about things in your life out loud to yourself, without writing them down in Japanese? I've been finding output really helps me think directly in the language's patterns, and gets me out of the translating mindset. YMMV.

I never started to practice speaking yet. But I do speak to myself in Japanese every once in a while. Really all I've been doing is just reading people's twitter and other popular media.

You might as well try italki and sharedtalk or mylanguageexchange, there's no pressure to be fluent. Although voice and text chat can be harder than real life because you can't see gestures and facial comprehension/expressions. I've had more success with language exchanges in person.
As for not translating, I think you're already on the right track to try thinking and talking to yourself in Japanese. Also, it's best to pursue this aspect of fluency with language you know well, words that come second nature, even if you just walk around saying 'yabai'. If you try to describe complicated ideas you end up translating and maybe it's good to try these out on Lang-8 and such.

tashippy Wrote:You might as well try italki and sharedtalk or mylanguageexchange, there's no pressure to be fluent. Although voice and text chat can be harder than real life because you can't see gestures and facial comprehension/expressions. I've had more success with language exchanges in person.

That's mainly why I don't use sharedtalk. All italki lessons take place through Skype, so you get the visual component.

I would really like something that's more on demand. Most of my Japanese friends are busy folk (as am I), so spontaneous chatting is hard. Italki is beta testing a new feature called Instant Tutoring, which lets you get a quick 30 minute chat with whatever teachers happen to be online. I hope to give it a crack this weekend.

I've plugged these sites elsewhere on this forum as well but..!
I like things like FC2 Live and NicoNico Live for conversing and observing conversation when there's no one around to talk to. I attribute a lot of my success in becoming able to converse freely to these gems of hikikomoritude during my final year in the US of A. These days I still use them just to converse and as a way to escape the lonely times when I'm stuck home alone and can't find something better to do. Which is more often than I'd like to admit. But just did. Admit.

ANYWAY!

I started using them a few years ago and it took me a while to gather up the courage to start conversing myself.. BUT until then I got to watch Japanese natives converse with each other in a very normal, unscripted way and imitate them. :]

Also I guess since it's conversation taking place in real time it may also be a good way to force the brain to think faster and more Japanesey.
/attempting to make derail fit topic by brute force.
/attempt failed.
/over-n'-out.

egoplant Wrote:Not everyone is learning the language to be able to speak in fluently, at least not as their top priority. If that's what you want to do, fine, but don't project that on to other people. Some people want to be able to understand as a top priority. (...) By the way, you couldn't have been any more condescending to me unless you started calling me names.

Wait, didn't you project your own learning goals onto everyone in a condescending way just one page ago? I believe the main offending sentence was "I've heard people say things like this before, and I think it's just people who want to make themselves feel better about their own laziness, while at the same time trying to put down the people who are actually dedicated."

Update

I know it's been only a short time but, I've stopped "translating," and everything seems so much faster all of a sudden. So for my new sentences I'm adding into anki, for the back side I just put a rough translation of the grammar point being learned instead of the whole sentence. So far, everything is going smooth, heck even the listening -_-

Xanpakuto Wrote:Update

I know it's been only a short time but, I've stopped "translating," and everything seems so much faster all of a sudden. So for my new sentences I'm adding into anki, for the back side I just put a rough translation of the grammar point being learned instead of the whole sentence. So far, everything is going smooth, heck even the listening -_-

Yes. The easy solution is just to be aware of it and not do it.
But that doesn't sound like advice..! ..!

drdunlap Wrote:

Xanpakuto Wrote:Update

I know it's been only a short time but, I've stopped "translating," and everything seems so much faster all of a sudden. So for my new sentences I'm adding into anki, for the back side I just put a rough translation of the grammar point being learned instead of the whole sentence. So far, everything is going smooth, heck even the listening -_-

Yes. The easy solution is just to be aware of it and not do it.
But that doesn't sound like advice..! ..!

If only I were a mod, I would close this thread. Bravo/a!

Xanpakuto Wrote:Recently I've noticed that I've been translating "Japanese" into English 97% of the time when watching anime or reading. Let's say I'm watching a T.V show, everything thats being said I just translate it to English lightning speed, just barely making it in time for the next word. But overall it fails and the speed beats me. It's easier when there's Japanese subs, but I really want to get rid of this nasty habit.

It's not a nasty habit, it's a natural response (innate, learned, or both, doesn't matter). It's the most immediate tool you have for understanding.

In fact trying to suppress it would be a mistake. Most people complain that they have trouble making that effort, and that their mind wonders off when watching Japanese content they don't fully understand.

You should be happy that you are able to focus and do it, and ride that until eventually you're able to understand without that effort. And you will. Don't fix something that's not broken. If you really want to do it less (because it's tiring), find easier material, or listen to the same material more than once. But that's not getting rid of the method, that's just reducing the intensity (and it's a tradeoff: less effort for less progress). Passive listening (what some suggested), is reducing the intensity even more, to the point where you're barely putting effort into it, and therefor barely progressing. Better than nothing (and therefor recommended), but not better than what you're doing.

P.S. If using Japanese subs makes it easier to understand, by all means, use them. But don't give up on understanding, when you don't have them.