I have noticed this a few times when watching anime. It seems んだ and んじゃない are used as positive and negative commands, respectively.

Some sentences I've heard that I can remember:
忘れるんじゃねぇよ！ (忘れるんじゃないよ！) --> "Don't forget!"
and
いいかい、よく聞くんだよ. --> "Alright, listen well."
Both of these sentences were translated as commands.

I'm not sure, but one assumption I have is that they're not actually commands but simply translated as commands. For example, with this sentence: 忘れるんじゃねぇよ！
My best guess is that it actually means, "You won't forget!" or something like "I'm assuming you won't forget!" but in a hostile type way, so that it was translated as a simple command. Is my assumption correct, and does anyone know anything about this?

Thank you.

They function as strongly worded commands. In English we also have the (somewhat old-fashioned) "You WILL sit down!" which doesn't have an imperative form but it's a command.

[s0apgun]

I think these are used more as an emphasize on what's said or seeking acknowledgement from the listener.

No, those are definitely commands. The ね after them might soften them a bit but you don't use those if you're not higher in station than the person you're talking to (or in some very casual contexts, especially if the "command" is something that benefits the listener)

The first time I got confused about the usage of んだ/んじゃない wasn't in a command. A certain anime earlier this year had a scene where a mother tells her daughter あんたなんか生むんじゃなかった which was translated as "I should have never given birth to you!" After that when I encountered んだ with a non-past verb I simply analysed it as "you must" or "you're supposed to", which can be understood as a command.

[s0apgun]

I'm sorry I misunderstood this. I was referring more to the topic title.

Yeah those are definitely commands. Couldn't you consider the ん after a dictionary form verb to be a slang equivalent of な. That would definitely make it a command.

IIRC from JtMW, んだ is a shortened version of なのだ which would make 「よく聞くんだよ」 into 「よく聞くなのだよ」and the Rikai definition for なのだ is 「it is assuredly that... ; can say with confidence...」

The じゃねぇ part or んだ is like what I said in the last post. They use these all the time in manga and especially in 進撃の巨人.

s0apgun Wrote:I'm sorry I misunderstood this. I was referring more to the topic title.

Yeah those are definitely commands. Couldn't you consider the ん after a dictionary form verb to be a slang equivalent of な. That would definitely make it a command.

IIRC from JtMW, んだ is a shortened version of なのだ which would make 「よく聞くんだよ」 into 「よく聞くなのだよ」and the Rikai definition for なのだ is 「it is assuredly that... ; can say with confidence...」

The じゃねぇ part or んだ is like what I said in the last post. They use these all the time in manga and especially in 進撃の巨人.

You're talking about what I would call an extended predicate. This is a completely different thing that just looks the same in many instances. 聞くんだ can be an extended predicate--like the rikaichan definition--or it could be a command, depending on the context and how it's said. They're completely different grammar points.

Also, just to clarify, んだ is an abbreviation of のだ, not なのだ. When making an extended predicate you still have to include the な after nouns or na-adjectives. Those extended predicates would like like: 本なんだ or きれいなんだ.

聞くなのだ is incorrect. It should be 聞くのだ or 聞くんだ. 面白いなのだ would also be incorrect--it'd be 面白いのだ or 面白いんだ.

You might also be thinking of stuff like 面白いんじゃない？ ("It's interesting, right?") 食べるんじゃない？ ("You're gonna eat it, right?"). Also, this is completely different from something like 食べるんじゃないよ！ ("Don't eat it"--a command)

Also, するな and するんだ (command) have opposite meanings. The first means 'don't do it' and the second means 'do it.' So one is not an abbreviation of the other, if that's what you meant.

yudantaiteki Wrote:They function as strongly worded commands. In English we also have the (somewhat old-fashioned) "You WILL sit down!" which doesn't have an imperative form but it's a command.

That's what I was thinking too.

s0apgun Wrote:IIRC from JtMW, んだ is a shortened version of なのだ which would make 「よく聞くんだよ」 into 「よく聞くなのだよ」and the Rikai definition for なのだ is 「it is assuredly that... ; can say with confidence...」

The じゃねぇ part or んだ is like what I said in the last post. They use these all the time in manga and especially in 進撃の巨人.

な after the dictionary form of a verb would be Prohibition/ Negative command. But adding のだ after that would be grammatically incorrect. As Tzadeck said, んだ is the short form of のだ.

Tzadeck Wrote:Also, するな and するんだ (command) have opposite meanings. The first means 'don't do it' and the second means 'do it.' So one is not an abbreviation of the other, if that's what you meant.

I know するな is "Don't do" as a direct command, but is するんだ also a direct command, or something like "You will do it!" (similar to a command, but not grammatically) as yudantaiteki said. I am familiar with the んだ and の and なのだ "Explanatory Particles," but when used as commands, are they different things altogether, or are they just the explanatory particles being used in a strongly worded way to basically act as a command?

Socky Wrote:I know するな is "Don't do" as a direct command, but is するんだ also a direct command, or something like "You will do it!" (similar to a command, but not grammatically) as yudantaiteki said. I am familiar with the んだ and の and なのだ "Explanatory Particles," but when used as commands, are they different things altogether, or are they just the explanatory particles being used in a strongly worded way to basically act as a command?

するな and するんだ aren't opposite equivalents since the direct command form and the んだ んじゃない commands are not used in the same situations. My impression of んだ and んじゃない is that they are used much more often when the person saying them is angry, and they are not a written form at all (except, of course, when dialogue is being written and similar situations). The regular command form and its negative appears in writing too (Although the negative not so often. Notices telling you not to do something in non-polite situations often use 禁止 or しないこと or something like that).

Whether or not you want to think of them as stemming from the same place as the 'explanatory particles' is up to you. You can think of it either way as long as you understand the meaning.

Glad you asked the question, this has puzzled me a bunch of times. : ) It seemed to be a command from the context but I wasn't sure if it could be.

Tzadeck Wrote:食べるんじゃない？ ("You're gonna eat it, right?"). Also, this is completely different from something like 食べるんじゃないよ！ ("Don't eat it"--a command)

どうして・・・ｗｗｗ　日本語は難しい。

The first one sounds the same as the explanatory の, but it becomes more forceful depending on the context, is that it? 'It is that you're going to eat it, isn't it?' to phrase it in a Tae Kim-ish way? I can't figure the second one out, though, I read it the way you translated it, but then I can't work out why it should mean that and not, say, be a forceful command to eat it ('You're gonna eat it, right!').

Here's another thread about it:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=6084&page=1

Ampharos64 Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:食べるんじゃない？ ("You're gonna eat it, right?"). Also, this is completely different from something like 食べるんじゃないよ！ ("Don't eat it"--a command)

どうして・・・ｗｗｗ　日本語は難しい。

To be honest I think these two would be super easy to distinguish if you saw a video of each one being used side by side. Their intonation is completely different and the way the person says it would be completely different. The first one is equivalent to "いいんじゃない？", which you should be hearing quite a lot if you're watching Japanese stuff at all.

Ampharos64 Wrote:The first one sounds the same as the explanatory の, but it becomes more forceful depending on the context, is that it? 'It is that you're going to eat it, isn't it?' to phrase it in a Tae Kim-ish way? I can't figure the second one out, though, I read it the way you translated it, but then I can't work out why it should mean that and not, say, be a forceful command to eat it ('You're gonna eat it, right!').

Actually, I think of the explanatory の, the んじゃない of いいんじゃない, and the command 食べるんじゃないよ as three completely different things. But, I think you could think of them as stemming from the same place if you want to. I learned the explanatory の as being a meaningless placeholder noun that is being modified, and you could say that that's what's going on in all three cases. But, actually, I've lived in Japan a long time and the latter two I really picked up just from hearing them tons of times. I never really analyzed them logically. You really don't have to analyze things in a language if you don't want to, though I had a lot of fun doing that kind of analyzing the first couple years I was learning Japanese.

As long as you know what meaning the other person is getting at, and you can convey the meaning you want to, how you look at the parts in the middle isn't so important.

The explanatory の or "extended predicate" marks something that is an established fact or known information, and can often be literally translated as "It's that..." even though that doesn't result in natural English.

In the case of these commands, it's easy to see how that works -- if I am your boss, and I say "You will complete these reports by 3:00," it's pretty obvious that I'm not just making an abstract statement about what you will happen to do. Since I'm in a position of power over you, if I say that you will do something, that means you will do it whether you like it or not. It's the same with the Japanese -- 聞くんだ！ means that I'm saying it's a fact that you will listen. In other words, I think I'm in the position to make you do what I say you will do.

It's a little harder to connect this to the んじゃなかった meaning "Shouldn't have done..." and that seems a little more idiomatic.

The difference between a question and a statement is a big difference in any language. Your boss saying "Will you finish these by 3:00?" is different from "You will finish these by 3:00." even though they're almost the same sentence. Now in terms of pragmatic usage it's possible that the first question can be interpreted as essentially an order, but it can also be a real question.

As for 食べるんじゃないよ！ vs. 食べるんじゃない？ Once you remove the question, the じゃない has to be negative. It only has the chance to work otherwise in a question. This is exactly like English "You're going, aren't you?" vs. "You aren't going."

Tzadeck Wrote:But, actually, I've lived in Japan a long time and the latter two I really picked up just from hearing them tons of times. I never really analyzed them logically. You really don't have to analyze things in a language if you don't want to, though I had a lot of fun doing that kind of analyzing the first couple years I was learning Japanese.

As long as you know what meaning the other person is getting at, and you can convey the meaning you want to, how you look at the parts in the middle isn't so important.

Hee, I think I get it now...but that seems good advice in general! After all, if each of us (me, you, and TC) got used to it being a command from seeing it in context, then I guess it works out well enough, any analysis then is just extra, and a way of checking that yup, that's what it means. Will listen out a little more for the difference anyway, I think the person has generally sounded pretty obviously forceful/emphatic when I've heard the 食べるんじゃないよ！ type version, so as you say they can be distinguished.

[s0apgun]

Thanks for the nice explanations!