bambi73 Wrote:

Vempele Wrote:

Aikynaro Wrote:Still - get the basics out of the way. Not even all the basics - but the really really basics, like kana, and what は, が, を, の, な, に, and で basically do. Something about verbs, maybe?

http://amaterasu.tindabox.net/guide/

Tried your link, but got 404 Not found. Do you know what happened to the page? Moved somewhere else, etc.? I already heard about Ixrec guide before so I would like to check it.

check tae kim. it's probably better than that site anyway.

you can also check out the stuff tofugu.com hands out for free.

bambi73 Wrote:Tried your link, but got 404 Not found. Do you know what happened to the page? Moved somewhere else, etc.? I already heard about Ixrec guide before so I would like to check it.

The site's been down for a few hours. Luckily, archive.org has has indexed the offline version: https://web.archive.org/web/201401102130...de/IGJ.rar

howtwosavealif3 Wrote:check tae kim. it's probably better than that site anyway.

Different methods. Tae Kim teaches you how to produce Japanese. Ixrec teaches you how to understand it and expects you to learn the production aspect after exposure. Take Grammar Part 2: Conjugation, for example. It teaches you how to recognize about 50 verb forms (plus adjective conjugation) in 20 pages, complete with 45 example sentences that you have to think about in order to understand.

@howtwosavealif3: I know Tae Kim and already read it, but I wanted to check Ixrec guide because of reasons described by Vempele.

@Vempele: Site is back online. Looks like i hit small window when it was down :-S

Stansfield123 Wrote:

JusenkyoGuide Wrote:I have lived in Japan for 9 years... I deal with Japanese 24/7.

Nope, doesn't work. It gets you to a certain level, yes. I got to the point where I could do daily stuff because I had to. I learned more terms for education because that's what I work with... but I've developed more since I decided that this wasn't working and started doing the decks and studying, particularly with a language like Japanese that has multiple levels of politeness and a whole cultural aspect wrapped into it. I.e. I learned the hard way that terms I had picked up as a vol. firefighter were NOT appropriate to the school setting.

I'm not saying it cannot be done, because obviously it can be, but I would caution people in thinking that just coming over here or cocooning yourself in nothing put Japanese will work a miracle.

Obviously, if you define "immersion" as "using a language in everyday life and nothing else", you aren't going to learn it to any kind of a deep degree of proficiency. That's simply because only a very small portion of a language is used in everyday life.

But "talking to volunteer firefighters" and "doing decks" are not the only options. You could also read. Or communicate with different kinds of people. Or write. You really don't need to spend your days doing Anki decks to become more proficient in a language you already speak.

As someone who has learned several languages past the point of "everyday use", I'm telling you: there are better ways to learn than studying.

See, I think you have your terminology backwards. You seem to be attempting to fit anything other than formal classroom/targeted lessons as immersion. I don't see that, I see study as actual attempts to learn vs. immersion being jumping in and hoping something sticks. Reading can be studying, talking with people can be studying, the thing with study is that you are attempting to master a certain target, actively as opposed to just hoping for the best. Study doesn't have to happen in isolation or with prepared texts that are as interesting as watching paint dry. You can read things you're interested in or talk to people, but you have to actively engage at it.

I'm working on my second language because passive immersion didn't work. I've known too many foreigners here who are the same boat as me (Or even worse) and I've known too many Japanese back in the States who did the same. They spent years in the US and still can't speak English.

Daichi Wrote:I recall reading about someone who attempted complete immersion in like Chinese by watching dramas all day. In the end, it seemed like there was only so much you can learn. I think you need a proper balance between deliberate study and immersion. Whatever that balance is, probably depends on the person.

He listened to Chinese dramas for exactly 2000 hours. At the end of that he had an amazing accent but minimal speaking ability (he never practiced speaking before the 2000 hour mark). He claimed he could understand 99% of a drama dialogue, but of course, real life doesn't happen like a Chinese drama. I think it was a very fascinating experiment, and part of me wants to repeat it with an easier language. In the end, you get out what you put in.

http://natural-language-acquisition.blog...s.html?m=1

WataruFord Wrote:http://natural-language-acquisition.blog...s.html?m=1

Reading through that article, it seems he isn't at 99%. He said he could understand very little if it was just a monologue of dialogue, doesn't sound very fluent to me. He also said he studied for 3 months before doing this, so that's kind of cheating. The results aren't that astounding, it's actually exactly what I would have guessed would happen if you had only audio input and nothing else, just a "good enough" understanding of situations you're familiar with that have visual elements to queue you. Then I clicked on his spreadsheet. It took him 4 years to do this, now I just feel bad for him. What a waste of 4 years, he could be actually fluent, in listening and reading if he had a more efficient method. I'm glad he did it, as a sort of an experiment, and a warning for us.

egoplant Wrote:

WataruFord Wrote:http://natural-language-acquisition.blog...s.html?m=1

Reading through that article, it seems he isn't at 99%. He said he could understand very little if it was just a monologue of dialogue, doesn't sound very fluent to me. He also said he studied for 3 months before doing this, so that's kind of cheating. The results aren't that astounding, it's actually exactly what I would have guessed would happen if you had only audio input and nothing else, just a "good enough" understanding of situations you're familiar with that have visual elements to queue you. Then I clicked on his spreadsheet. It took him 4 years to do this, now I just feel bad for him. What a waste of 4 years, he could be actually fluent, in listening and reading if he had a more efficient method. I'm glad he did it, as a sort of an experiment, and a warning for us.

His response to this comment would be that it wasn't a waste for him because he enjoyed it. 4 years of enjoyable audio input is better than one year of unpleasant studying followed by quitting. His only reason for doing this experiment (I think) was personal curiosity and enjoyment. The blog teaches a valuable lesson about goal setting and motivation. I (and probably many others) wouldn't learn Chinese the way he did because I'd have different goals in mind.

WataruFord Wrote:

egoplant Wrote:

WataruFord Wrote:http://natural-language-acquisition.blog...s.html?m=1

Reading through that article, it seems he isn't at 99%. He said he could understand very little if it was just a monologue of dialogue, doesn't sound very fluent to me. He also said he studied for 3 months before doing this, so that's kind of cheating. The results aren't that astounding, it's actually exactly what I would have guessed would happen if you had only audio input and nothing else, just a "good enough" understanding of situations you're familiar with that have visual elements to queue you. Then I clicked on his spreadsheet. It took him 4 years to do this, now I just feel bad for him. What a waste of 4 years, he could be actually fluent, in listening and reading if he had a more efficient method. I'm glad he did it, as a sort of an experiment, and a warning for us.

His response to this comment would be that it wasn't a waste for him because he enjoyed it. 4 years of enjoyable audio input is better than one year of unpleasant studying followed by quitting. His only reason for doing this experiment (I think) was personal curiosity and enjoyment. The blog teaches a valuable lesson about goal setting and motivation. I (and probably many others) wouldn't learn Chinese the way he did because I'd have different goals in mind.

What is the valuable lesson about motivation when he didn't have enough motivation to open up a text book and actually study? It just shows poor motivation and stubbornness. I don't think either of those are valuable lessons.

egoplant Wrote:

WataruFord Wrote:http://natural-language-acquisition.blog...s.html?m=1

Reading through that article, it seems he isn't at 99%. He said he could understand very little if it was just a monologue of dialogue, doesn't sound very fluent to me. He also said he studied for 3 months before doing this, so that's kind of cheating. The results aren't that astounding, it's actually exactly what I would have guessed would happen if you had only audio input and nothing else, just a "good enough" understanding of situations you're familiar with that have visual elements to queue you. Then I clicked on his spreadsheet. It took him 4 years to do this, now I just feel bad for him. What a waste of 4 years, he could be actually fluent, in listening and reading if he had a more efficient method. I'm glad he did it, as a sort of an experiment, and a warning for us.

Yeah this guy, I recall there was a post where someone actually tested him, and he didn't do all that well on it. Of course he wasn't learning for tests, so it's not an easy thing to measure.

But just think how far he could of gotten with just a little bit of active study. I'm sure if he actively studied like 20 minutes a day and watched drama the rest of his time, he could of gotten to where he was in less than half the time.

I really think a bit of balance can go a long way. People are too worried about a specific method. "I gotta do just this one thing 100% of the time". It can lead to the right mentality, but you should also try to mix it up.

This is funny because im one of the people who learned japanese without really studying. To be fair i studied minimally for the first two years using My japanese coach, Genki, and and the internet but i wasnt very good. But my japanese ability exploded when i got lazy and just watched dramas, talked to unsuspecting japanese people on skype from skypechannel, broadcasted on niconama, used japanese social networked,read books, play rpgs,visual novels etc.
I did these things EVERYDAY. I pretty much lived in internet japan.
What i did was every time i heard a word that i heard often i would a write it on a list and i looked at that list often.

But dont be fooled im living proof that the immersion method without studying has a way of making you feel like you are better than you actually are, which can be detrimental to your learning.
The reason is because you get good at the vocabulary and slang inside the "internet environment" in which you are immersed but never learn anything from outside those circumstances. Like i never learn business language vocabulary, grocery store vocabulary, zoo vocabulary and infinetely many more so if i actually went to japan id be stuck. I just learned enough to do the things i was immersing in but i felt like i was a pro because i could talk to japanese people on Skype and they thought i was a native. (i started learning it very young so i was able to pick up the almost native pronunciation)
But anyone can sound like a native as long as they learn the most used words in the language. It wont help you in real world applications outside of idle conversion.


From my experience i think that both studying and immersion at the same time is the best way to go. If you only immerse you will learn how to talk and interact with japanese well but at a painfully slower rate. If you just study you might learn faster but have a hard time applying the words correctly in all aspects.
If you both immerse and study you will be an immense force to be reckoned with!
Of course, you might not have a life outside of internet japan xD
(if you do it right you can)

Quote:At the end of that he had an amazing accent but minimal speaking ability

Do you speak Chinese? His accent was not amazing by any stretch. Tones all over the place, consonants and vowels pronounced incorrectly, broken intonation. He had a pretty typical (read: bad) American accent, no better than any number of FOB Americans I hear on a regular basis around my old Chinese school here in Taipei. His listening comprehension seemed somewhat OK, but that was it. And considering the amount of time he put in, he could have gotten much further and had a much better accent if he chosen a more effective method.

Its partially possible ! But it would take you a longggg time. I did it at 4 years and devoted much time watching lots of anime and playing lots of Japanese visual novels with translation software.

But here is what I got
-I am able to understand many phrases and got lots of vocab from anime.
-I did remember about 200 basic kanji which I got from VN
-Being exposed to so many Japanese sentences I have mastered the particles and grammar.
-I can speak simple japanese from anime songs.

What it does not give me
-Hiragana and Katakana reading ability(well after formal study it just take you 2 day with mnemonics)
etc. . . .

After learning kanji in RTK I am beginning to learn jap words more effectively like when I saw the kanji for word is say + leaf and heard the voice "kotoba" and I also applied it to other word by copying the words from my VN to excel to remember them later.

So in the end you still gotta study formally. . . .