I've been self-studying Japanese since the end of 2008 and I'm quite ready to give up for good.

I did RTK1+3 and have been doing Anki reps on those every day for nearly five years.

I just deleted my deck in frustration.

I recently swapped them from having the keyword on the front to having the kanji on the front, writing it and trying to remember the keyword. I did this because I was sick of looking at Japanese text and knowing that I know the kanji, yet not being able to remember the keyword. Not having a clue what the reading is is another issue altogether.

Apart from that I've been doing the AJATT thing daily since May 2012 and I still find myself unable to understand pretty much any Japanese I hear, beyond very basic stuff. This is not an anti-AJATT rant, I'm sure it works great for some people, but it's not working for me.

I also tried a conversation exchange for a few months, but unsurprisingly it was basically an extended English lesson for the Japanese guy.

Anyway, if anyone has any ideas for a change of strategy I'd like to hear them. I don't really want to throw away five years of kanji rep effort and any other progress I've made (no matter how indiscernible it is to me), but right now it would feel like a weight lifting.

phybron Wrote:I was sick of looking at Japanese text and knowing that I know the kanji, yet not being able to remember the keyword. Not having a clue what the reading is is another issue altogether.

Have you studied vocab or grammar extensively, or have you been trying to decipher japanese text with rtk keywords?

It's tricky to answer that. With five years of working away at it I'm not sure what constitutes studying 'extensively'. I mean, cumulatively I've probably done an extensive amount of grammar and vocabulary study, but I don't have any benchmarks or tests to confirm it.

Plus, having been following the AJATT thing means that studying grammar and vocabulary in isolation has never been my aim.

But, as you imply, trying to decipher Japanese with RTK keywords is utterly futile. Hence my frustration.

I don't really understand what level you're at from your post, or what level you think you should be at.

And what do you mean when you say doing AJATT? AJATT advocates for a lot of stuff, some of which isn't really compatible - do you just mean the immersion environment? Or MCDs or 10000 sentences or...?

Do you apply your knowledge (not for studying - for enjoyment)? Do you read books/manga/games/VNs?

[s0apgun]

Start reading daily and lookup unknown vocab and grammar points as you go. RTK3 was more or less a waste of your time. All of your RTK cards should be far matured by now so you should stop with that all together. Make Anki flashcards of the vocabulary you find in native material. Listen to podcasts and watch Japanese media. Do this everyday for 1-2 hours. Come back with results in a years time.

My daily studying consists of 1 hour in Anki, 1 hour reading novels or manga, and then watching anime or doramas for fun outside of study time. I also have Japanese music playing A LOT.

Don't get burnt out, but you definitely need to evaluate how you're spending your time in Japanese if its not working for you now.

I've been studying for a bit longer, and I can relate to where you're coming from. It sure has taken more years than I ever thought it would, and still there's still plenty I don't understand.

I agree with s0apgun--start reading daily and look up unknown vocab and grammar points as you go. That's the #1 best thing you can do. The more you read, the better you'll get.

I'd also suggest you stop Anki. It's almost like an addiction, and if you're not careful you can spend time doing reps that would be better spent reading or watching movies with subtitles. Anki feels like studying, but sometimes I'm not really sure it is. You just go over the same stuff again and again, and the time you spend acquiring new information drops as you spend more time reviewing. I think it's better just to forget whatever you're going to forget and keep moving forward.

RTK, in my opinion, is somewhat useful, but that's all. You do it, you review it for a while, and then you let it go. You often can't reconcile the keywords with the various ways in which kanji are used in real life. Reading will solve that though.

For conversation, I firmly believe in paying people. Language exchange, and conversing with people casually, is a poor use of your time. You need someone who will have actual lessons and not just keep repeating the same safe topics over and over. I spent a lot of time working with private tutors and it did wonders for my speaking ability.

Don't give up, switch up. You've laid all the groundwork, now just do a bit more.

I personally recommend starting from zero with a basic textbook like Genki. It sounds like the OP missed out on getting a good basic foundation in the language.

Start reading actual books. I deleted my RTK deck a long time ago. You shouldn't still be using it. The AJATT method makes people think they can just watch something, not understand any of it at the time, and then magically understand it later on. You do need to actively try and comprehend things at some point. If you read it'll be a good start.

I remember when I first started Japanese I read AJATT and thought it was such an incredible idea. Then I spent years of watching TV shows and such and never understanding anything. It wasn't until I started actively reading did I notice any improvement.

Thanks everyone. Some good suggestions in there.

Aikynaro: I was following the principles of AJATT for the first three years, RTK, SRS reps and immersion as much as possible (probably nowhere near enough, but I can only take a certain number of hours in a day actively or even passively listening to something I have no comprehension of). Then in May 2012 I signed up for the Silverspoon programme. That has since transformed into Neutrino, so the 495 day Silverspoon programme has transformed into 1,000 days. More realistic maybe, but I'm over halfway now and just not feeling like I'm making any progress.

Like I said, I'm sure it works fine for some people, and it definitely does get you doing stuff in Japanese every day, which is the point, but it's just not adding up to the sum of its parts for me.

I have books, manga, movies, games, podcasts, Youtube subscriptions to Japanese channels, computer and phone set to Japanese, etc. Which is all great but what I really crave is comprehensible input.

TheVinster, JapaneseRuleOf7, s0apgun: Sounds like the consensus is to read. The AJATT method for that, as I have understood it, is to dip in and out of books, skip around, not stop and keep looking things up because it's too laborious, but you guys seem to be suggesting slowing it down and actually figuring out what you're looking at. So much of AJATT is to just have the language in front of your eyeballs, but this learning by osmosis just isn't working for me. I know that's how I learnt English (which is the hook that gets you thinking AJATT makes so much sense) but maybe it's just that when you're a child learning your first language you don't require comprehensible input in the same way that you do when you're an adult. Everything's interesting when you're three years old.

kitakitsune: I have the first Genki book. I've tried to plough through it a couple of times, but with the AJATT anti-textbook mantras in the back of my mind it's hard to focus. Maybe I should just get through it and go from there.

Anyway, thanks again everyone. I know I'm being a doofus, but it's frustrating after trying for this long and finding I'm being ineffective, inefficient, or just stupid. Please don't flame me too much for doing Silverspoon. I know, I know. And, again, I'm sure it's awesome for some people (not that I've ever seen any evidence of such people anywhere, but hey).

phybron Wrote:... you guys seem to be suggesting slowing it down and actually figuring out what you're looking at. So much of AJATT is to just have the language in front of your eyeballs, but this learning by osmosis just isn't working for me. I know that's how I learnt English (which is the hook that gets you thinking AJATT makes so much sense) but maybe it's just that when you're a child learning your first language you don't require comprehensible input in the same way that you do when you're an adult. Everything's interesting when you're three years old.

That is exactly what I would suggest, yes. A nice easy book would be a great help, I think.

And you're right, you can't learn the way a child learns, because a child doesn't have the prior connections in his or her brain the way you do. The kid's like, "Ball? Say what? First I've heard of it." But you've already got a head full of information, all interconnected. You can't pretend you don't know what "tama" is. You've got to connect it to something; and not just one thing, but dozens of things. Once you comprehend, then immersion is effective for retention and use.

In terms of how to deal with unknown words as you read I feel it depends on the situation. If I'm near a computer at home I will check every word I don't know. If I'm on the train or something I will read and skip those words, and when I get home I'll read those same pages and look-up the unknown words. The latter provides a nice way to both reinforce info you do know and see the reading of the word you don't know a second time. Whatever works for you, though.

AJATT isn't about magically becoming fluent in Japanese by watching TV and listening to random pop music. It's about having fun while studying really hard, focusing on native material and carefully analyzing whatever you found interesting. It seems a lot of people get hyped because they sloppily read the first few articles and misunderstand the author.

RTK and srs reps are just something to get you started before you can start learning real Japanese.

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:

phybron Wrote:... you guys seem to be suggesting slowing it down and actually figuring out what you're looking at. So much of AJATT is to just have the language in front of your eyeballs, but this learning by osmosis just isn't working for me. I know that's how I learnt English (which is the hook that gets you thinking AJATT makes so much sense) but maybe it's just that when you're a child learning your first language you don't require comprehensible input in the same way that you do when you're an adult. Everything's interesting when you're three years old.

And you're right, you can't learn the way a child learns

Happens to me all of the time.

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:I'd also suggest you stop Anki. It's almost like an addiction, and if you're not careful you can spend time doing reps that would be better spent reading or watching movies with subtitles. Anki feels like studying, but sometimes I'm not really sure it is. You just go over the same stuff again and again, and the time you spend acquiring new information drops as you spend more time reviewing. I think it's better just to forget whatever you're going to forget and keep moving forward.

This. Oh dear God, this. Anki seemed to eat through so much of my time with lackluster results. The last few months have been Anki-free, and it's been AWESOME.
Anki felt like a huge chore. I'd constantly fail cards, even for words I'd know, which would then result in a bigger review pile, which in turn made Anki feel like even more of a chore. Then I'd feel guilty because Anki seemed to work so well for everyone else, whereas I was struggling.
My study time now is zero pressure. I write down new vocab, complete the accompanying worksheets, and write down example sentences. If I forget something, I just write down the example sentence and move on. There's no growing backlog of 'failed' material, thus making it feel less like a chore and no guilt.
Plus, I've got more time to read, and reading is the ultimate SRS.
OP- It sounds like AJATT may not be the best method for you. Deleting your RTK deck was a great start - there's no reason to be reviewing the same material for five years. If a method hasn't been working for the last five years, it'd stand to reason that it's not going to work on the sixth year either.
A more regimented study plan may work better for you, like a textbook or grammar guide. Ignore the anti-textbook stuff. Textbooks can be incredibly useful - you've got your vocab and grammar explanations nicely organized in one place, steadily progressing from beginner to more advanced material. From there you can move on to reading easy material and watching TV and movies with subtitles.
Just because a certain method works for most people doesn't mean it will work for you. It sounds like you just need to experiment and find something that does work for you.

I actually quite marvel at how you managed to stick with over a year of watching and listening to stuff that's incomprehensible. I lasted about a month of hardcore AJATTing.

My personal conclusion was to only do stuff in Japanese that I basically understand while studying (Anki+subs2srs sentence recognition deck - unstressful stuff) to increase vocabulary and such. I like the basic ideas behind AJATT (and it sounds like you do too), but not the implementation of it. Still, there are salvageable ideas in it if you're not at the point where you're thinking 'fuckit forever' ... for me I decided on 'study sentences with Anki' and 'do stuff in Japanese', and I feel it's working okay and is painless.

Are none of the books, manga, etc. that you have comprehensible? ... why not?
Extensive reading is a fabulous thing. Intensive reading is okay if you're into that sort of thing. Reading things that you just don't understand sounds really pointless.
Unless your level is really, really low (and I have trouble imagining it being as low as I'm thinking), there's native materials out there that you should be able to read and comprehend.

Personally I don't use a dictionary for reading - it makes me want to not read, and knowing every word isn't necessary if you understand nearly everything else anyway. It's just like when I read slightly above my level as a child. You just need a book at the right level (where you understand ~98% of what's on the page). Liking children's literature comes in handy.

Good luck with whatever it is you decide to do.

(there used to be a moneyback guarantee for silverspoon, didn't there?)

My initial mindset was "I'll become fluent in Japanese".
But I didn't really care about that, I just wanted to watch anime.

egoplant Wrote:I'm not trying to mean, but this thread is really scary. I think it's crazy that you can "study" for 5 years and get the same amount as a person who is doing something more efficient could in 6 months or less. It's a horror story that probably puts people off of learning languages to begin with, but I always thought it was just that, a story, but this is the real thing.

A bit sardonic(?). I assume the intent of this thread was not to find answers but to provide insight on burnout and methodology.

Deleting the RTK deck was a bit scary after five years of daily reps, but it seems like that was a good idea judging by the responses here. I mean, they're not getting any easier and I haven't added any for ages, since I finished RTK3. But having done all that kanjis don't seem incomprehensible and unlearnable now, which was the whole point of RTK.

I should have probably stopped doing the reps when I realised that the first time.

I guess I'll pick the few things that I currently do that I enjoy and that seem useful and then build on that. The Basic Connections and All About Particles books are pretty good and repping sentences from those actually seems to work, I think.

Self-study seems like such a great idea, but doing it right is tricky, hence why Silverspoon and a million other programmes make sense.

Anyway, thanks again everyone. I still want to learn the language so I'll find a way to keep at it. Hopefully this thread might help anyone else who's floundering.

I don't think deleting your entire RTK deck was a good idea. A lot of people here can attribute their fluency to Anki.

Instead of doing that it probably would've been better to go on a deletion spree; perhaps something like deleting or revising all cards with over 20 relapses (non learning stage fails); even if that is a couple hundred cards they will still count for >80% of your reps, and dealing with your deck that way is much more efficient than deleting everything. The systems you ran it on should still have the automated backups.

I don't know if he deleted all his decks or just the RTK one, but if its just the RTK one then it doesn't need to be salvaged. If hes been doing it for 5 years and, apparently, seeing completely no benefit from it then its time to give up on it.

Actually its hard for me to understand what the OP has actually been doing other than RTK reviews. Which is a massive shame and part of the reason I friggin hate RTK so much, because its not Japanese and no amount of RTK review is going to help you understand anything or be able to read anything. As the OP is apparently finding out.

5 years is a heck of a long time to be making such awful progress. That speaking honestly, most of language study is all about the time investment rather than technique. To get nowhere in 5 years is what I did at high school studying German, because I put no time or effort into it and didn't even try to learn it. With respect to the OP, I suspect over the past 5 years he hasn't been putting in a huge daily effort into studying Japanese. Which is pretty much necessary regardless of technique.

Scrapping Anki is reasonable if it isn't working for you. I like Anki because when I have 'down time' and study something else instead of Japanese, it kind of lets me maintain my level in a fairly stress free way (since I burn through my reviews very quickly for Japanese). It gets less and less useful the more advanced your level though, when it starts taking time away from you that you really should be using to read more native materials with.

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:I'd also suggest you stop Anki. It's almost like an addiction, and if you're not careful you can spend time doing reps that would be better spent reading or watching movies with subtitles. Anki feels like studying, but sometimes I'm not really sure it is. You just go over the same stuff again and again, and the time you spend acquiring new information drops as you spend more time reviewing.

I agree completely with your point. If you can not give Anki the attention it deserves (and nothing more), then it is better that you do something else with your time.

As soon as you find yourself not learning any new cards the system loses most of its efficiency in my opinion. Just reviewing the cards you've already learned is not worth the hassle. You need to be moving forward constantly, as fast as you're comfortable with.

Reviews deserve only the slightest bit of your time possible. If you are taking more than ten seconds to answer a simple kanji/single word question then something needs to be improved. If you don't remember something, you check the answer and move on. This process should not take more than 5-6 seconds from the moment you see the card.

It's not about stressing yourself over moving on asap. It's about giving the reviews the attention they deserve, and nothing more. I know very well how any failure can be seen as a personal failure and the statistics are oh so addictive to look at, but I am quite certain that you would learn more in a far less amount of time if you sucked it up and sacrificed your correct % slightly for the gains you get.

Sometimes you need to take a step back and look at the card, and try to understand why you are failing it constantly. But if you don't, you move on asap. Usually this process should be completed by the time the new card leaves the "learning mode".

I gave up on the RTK deck 2 weeks after finishing the book. I'm still here, and yes I might have to relearn to write the kanji if I ever decide that I need that skill in my life. And that's okay.

go do tae kim. it's free and it sounds you don't have grammar foundation from what you're saying.... with the lack of comprehension.

and something simple that anyone can learn/benefit from at any level is song lyrics with rikai-chan. go find a japanese song you like or do a song yo like and just learn...

and honestly even if you memorized rtk 1-3 you still have to learn kakitori so don't worry about it. i would just do kakitori decks from now on lol... but it sounds like you should focus on other areas like comprehension and grammar and whatnot. 5 years is quite long no?

I don't understand why you would need to delete your anki deck 5 years after rtk 1 & 3. even if it took 2 years to finish rtk then there's 3 years for reviews to wind down to nothing.

I finished rtk 1+3 2 years ago and have like 10 reviews a day for those cards...

my general point would be that ajatt makes this seem easier than it is.
you have to be dedicated to hard work for a good period of your life. and you have to do it kinda fast... otherwise it feels like a long slog with no progress and you get demotivated/burnout.
on the upside if you are really into whatever type of culture it is that you're experiencing japanese through, it kinda dulls the boredom of work. like watching tv while on a treadmill at the gym.

dtcamero Wrote:I don't understand why you would need to delete your anki deck 5 years after rtk 1 & 3. even if it took 2 years to finish rtk then there's 3 years for reviews to wind down to nothing.

I finished rtk 1+3 2 years ago and have like 10 reviews a day for those cards...

But it doesn't sound like that's the case with the OP at all. He said he's still unable to recall keywords and that he doesn't know the readings. If he's been reviewing RTK for five years and is still unable to remember, then it doesn't seem like it's worth continuing with.
Your case is different - if you've got that deck down to 10 reviews a day, clearly you understand and are retaining the material. But it doesn't sound like the OP is at all, hence why he's better off just deleting the deck and moving on to something different.

Just to clarify with my RTK reps. I had them down to about 50 a day with keyword on the front and kanji on the back. As I was concerned with my lack of recognition of the kanjis when reading Japanese text I switched the whole deck round the other way and started writing the kanji down and then trying to recall the keyword, or at least something similar to it.

As expected I started failing more than before and my reviews are generally now around 75-90 a day. This is fine. My problem with it is having seen all of them now so many times and still finding I'm forgetting them it feels like my overall retention is very low.

Then considering that knowing the RTK keyword is only very slightly useful for comprehending written Japanese, and also having no clue what the reading is, means RTK reviews seem a bit futile.

The most frustrating thing about it all is that Japanese seems to be an easy language. The grammar is comparatively simple, the pronunciation must be one of the easiest in the world, and having done RTK the kanjis don't seem impossible. And yet here I am, five years in, and I'd say my comprehension of native level Japanese (movies, podcasts, whatever) is less than 1%.

So I'm clearly doing it wrong. That's all this thread is. I'm looking for other methods, seeing what has worked for other people. I'm also wary of people claiming one method or strategy is the best idea in the world, when they haven't actually succeeded with it themselves. I say this because I'm guilty of it. The AJATT system makes so much sense to me I can quite confidently blather on about how it's the best way to learn languages, whilst forgetting that it's not working for me at all. (And when I say not working for me, I'm not saying it doesn't work, just that I'm not following it religiously enough, or using it correctly, which is highly probable).

phybron Wrote:The most frustrating thing about it all is that Japanese seems to be an easy language.

Regardless of what you're comparing Japanese to, it is not an easy language.