Hey all, I have a few questions regarding the process of sentence mining (total N00b here):

1. Should I finish RTK 1 before starting to sentence mine (I am mainly following the JALUP method). I did RTK a little a while back but stopped so I will have a total restart there.
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2. Could I do the 1000J-E sentences while doing RTK?

3. I understand and know HOW to sentence mine, but in the Genki 1 book (the first source I will use for sentence mining, in conjunction with Minna no Nihongo), there are plenty of sentences. Should I input each one and follow on from there on each one (i + 1) or should I follow one or two specific sentences and branch off from there?

4. Should I input the greeting at the start as 'sentences' or just learn them as fixed phrases?

5. And, for instance, in the very first conversation, should I input the sentence -ima, nanji desu ka?- sorry, to lazy to type in Japanese. (with kanji in the sentence).

I might have more questions but nothing else comes to mind at the moment. Thanks for all and any answers!!!!


Jrummer

I don't have much experience in this dept. but I will say it's probably best to not worry about putting in basic greetings and such. The point of Anki is to not over-review items, especially easy ones.
You might want to play it by hear as you go, but I would venture that entering some sentences that you find interesting or memorable or relevant to you from each section as a representative of that sentence form or whatever, and then add some vocab you want to solidify. Don't follow my advice specifically, I'm just warning you not to do what I often do and be overly thorough for no reason, such as reading every page of a book that's already beneath your level just because you never read the whole book all the way. Help you help you.

Do you think it would be a good idea to have a japanese keyword/ common reading when doing RTK? Thanks for your help

Some people do that and that's okay as just something to keep on the card if you want to see it and gain familiarity with those things, but it doesn't necessarily fit in the system of RTK in terms of imaginative memory/mnemonics. So I'd say it's not unreasonable to use readings almost as decoration on the cards and really grade yourself on learning the kanji with English keyword on the front and kanji on the back.
I wonder if anyone here has tried doing it with the on yomi and kun yomi on the front with the E keyword and put the kanji on the back. I would think that one incredibly valuable thing about RTK is that you're learning a sense of the kanji's overall meaning (or in fewer cases just one meaning that is not the most common but still makes sense once you start learning words) which can be useful later on when you're guessing the meaning of words. So it's kinda up to you.
I think an important factor for you is to make sure you stick with RTK even if it's a little bit. You seem pretty eager to jump into other things, but you did not finish RTK the first time (it's not organized by frequency of kanji so it's worthwhile to go all 2100) so I'd say go ahead and give yourself a mixed bag as long as you keep a minimum of kanji per day and let that be a priority while the other stuff is kinda preparing you to have your foot in the door when you finish RTK (meaning you finish adding new characters and catch up with your reviews in SRS). Notice one thing you learn from RTK is discipline and follow-through. Ganbatte, sir or ma'am!

Do you think that at least 10 kanji will enough as a minimum each day?

I'd also like to know how people sentence mine. After finishing RTK do you sentence mine following the same sequence as in RTK? Or just pick sentences up randomly?

As I have the book Minna no Nihongo 1 and 2 my idea is to start off picking sentences from these books but I wonder if it is a good idea to follow RTK's order?

When you say the RTK order, do you mean sentences with the Kanji in RTk in that sentence in that order? Sorry for bad wording

@Jrummer I mean, picking sentences following the same order Heisig uses in his book.

for example -(putting 1-10 aside)

First sentence using mouth 口
2nd - 日
３rd - 月
So I would mine sentences with these kanjis in this very same sequence and add them into an Anki deck.

What do you think? Has anyone tried it?

Rsun1 Wrote:@Jrummer I mean, picking sentences following the same order Heisig uses in his book.

for example -(putting 1-10 aside)

First sentence using mouth 口
2nd - 日
３rd - 月
So I would mine sentences with these kanjis in this very same sequence and add them into an Anki deck.

What do you think? Has anyone tried it?

I wouldn't bother doing this because you are going to run into less common Kanji quite a lot earlier, and have to learn vocabulary which may not be commonly used. Which for a complete beginner is bad, not only because its more to remember when its unnecessary, but you will probably also start saying some strange things.

For what its worth, unless you are one of those people who panic at the sight of Kanji I wouldn't bother finishing RTK either. Just give sentences a go and if Kanji is causing a huge problem for you, then start on RTK. No point spending months on RTK if you don't need it.

NightSky Wrote:I wouldn't bother doing this because you are going to run into less common Kanji quite a lot earlier, and have to learn vocabulary which may not be commonly used. Which for a complete beginner is bad, not only because its more to remember when its unnecessary, but you will probably also start saying some strange things.

For what its worth, unless you are one of those people who panic at the sight of Kanji I wouldn't bother finishing RTK either. Just give sentences a go and if Kanji is causing a huge problem for you, then start on RTK. No point spending months on RTK if you don't need it.

Makes sense what you said about learning non common kanji and saying strange things.

I am right now at 1247 and expecting to finish till december. Then I will start sentence mining although I have to admit that the thought of diving into sentences is always on my mind but I feel like I should finish this book first .


Thanks!

I just started sentence mining and for the most part use sentences from Tangorin. What I do is pick a kanji, let's say 水, and then look up example sentences on Tangorin. Then I'll look for a sentence using not only 水, but another kanji as well like 少. This way I reinforce my understanding of the usage of 水 while learning other kanji.

Examples 水がほしいのですか＝I'd like some water
　　　　　水を少しください＝Please give me some water　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　

NightSky Wrote:For what its worth, unless you are one of those people who panic at the sight of Kanji I wouldn't bother finishing RTK either.

Rsun1 Wrote:Then I will start sentence mining although I have to admit that the thought of diving into sentences is always on my mind but I feel like I should finish this book first .

I would guess that if you took all of the people who have any sort of Japanese fluency you would find that people who finished RTK before starting into vocab, grammar, and sentences are major outliers. I just can't imagine being super motivated to learn Japanese, yet somehow being mentally and emotionally satisfied by learning some English meanings to Japanese characters.

If you're doing RTK with an Anki deck, I think it's too much to do sentences with another Anki deck at the same time. It takes far too much time and it's dull.
And if you have to choose between one or the other, I would (did, even) go for the sentences.

Jrummer Wrote:3. I understand and know HOW to sentence mine,

I don't, could someone explain that to me? Particularly the process to turn one into an Anki card. What am I supposed to be putting in what field as a question and what is the answer? I've spent an inordinate amount of time searching in vain for the absolute basics.

OzarM Wrote:

Jrummer Wrote:3. I understand and know HOW to sentence mine,

I don't, could someone explain that to me? Particularly the process to turn one into an Anki card. What am I supposed to be putting in what field as a question and what is the answer? I've spent an inordinate amount of time searching in vain for the absolute basics.

He said he's following the japaneselevelup method, which is here: http://japaneselevelup.com/how-to-use-an...ences-j-e/

Another question (or two):

1. On the JALUP website, he uses Japanese keywords as well as English ones. What the benefits and disadvantages of this? Should I do it too, because I think learning some English keywords with no Japanese is sort of off the main goal (learning JAPANESE). Many people say that RTK is aimed at those who find kanji diffcult. Although I am a beginner, I think they are fine and simple. Not scary at all.

Is RTK worth my time or should I jump into sentences and Core 6k?

2. Should I do Core6K along side RTK? I take Jap classes (sitting GCSE this year as extra qualification), and I am using Minna no Nihongo and a mix of Genki as well. I plan on doing this, as well as RTK and also sentence mining alongside as well. Should I leave Core 6K until after RTK and my GCSE? Thanks all for any help

PS: Strongly suggest basing a study plan around that of the JALUP method

It sounds like you have a lot of questions concerning how to optimize your study methods perfectly, but I'd advise to not be too worried about getting it right the first time and try and experiment for a few ways of learning (maybe for a few weeks) and see how it goes.

Concerning Core6k, it would make more sense to me to do either it post-RTK, or if you use a reordered version that follows RTK order if you want to benefit the most out of it. I did Core6k post-RTK (but very inefficiently so I'm sure you'll have a much better experience than I did if you choose to do Core6k).

Jrummer Wrote:On the JALUP website, he uses Japanese keywords as well as English ones. What the benefits and disadvantages of this?

Adshap covers this extensively. (Second question.)

Jrummer Wrote:Is RTK worth my time or should I jump into sentences and Core 6k?

You should do what you want. The point of learning Japanese is to achieve your own personal goals for Japanese and you are the best person to decide how to reach those goals. The JALUP method itself even recommends starting sentences along with RTK. (World 5)

sparky14 Wrote:I just started sentence mining and for the most part use sentences from Tangorin. What I do is pick a kanji, let's say 水, and then look up example sentences on Tangorin. Then I'll look for a sentence using not only 水, but another kanji as well like 少. This way I reinforce my understanding of the usage of 水 while learning other kanji.

Examples 水がほしいのですか＝I'd like some water
　　　　　水を少しください＝Please give me some water　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　

Tangorin isn't the safest source for "correct" Japanese sentences. Use ALC.

K, thanks for all the great advice! Will start RTK alongside sentences and then post-RTK will start Core6K.

For some reason this article made me think of this thread.

How to Avoid The Two Biggest Mistakes That Almost All Language Learners Seem to Make

tokyostyle Wrote:1 - I would guess that if you took all of the people who have any sort of Japanese fluency you would find that people who finished RTK before starting into vocab, grammar, and sentences are major outliers.

2 - I just can't imagine being super motivated to learn Japanese, yet somehow being mentally and emotionally satisfied by learning some English meanings to Japanese characters.

1 - Actually it looks like RTK is not the first shot of those who want to learn japanese. I say that cause the guy who told me about it was already a student of japanese when he came across RTK. RTK actually seems not to be very famous among students of japanese. I mean "students of japanese" people who are taking japanese lessons in a japanese course. In fact, those who I have met so far have know idea of what RTK is.

What I see is people who hears about RTK after studying japanese for some time and looking for other resources. Thats my case, by the way.

2 - The way you say it sounds like someone believes that after finishing RTK all the work is done. Its quite the opposite.

[a semantic observation of mining]

"Mining is industrial, rough [...]. A better name would be sentence-picking, or even clause-picking or phrase-picking. Picking. You know, like berries — you go for the big, red/purple juicy, ripe, sweet ones. "

Use ideas, clauses, phrases, etc. Mining is difficult when mining coal, but it's not as bad if you go crystal or gem mining

ryuudou Wrote:Tangorin isn't the safest source for "correct" Japanese sentences. Use ALC.

But keep in mind that while ALC's Japanese might be fine, its English translations are suspect. One hilarious former example (from 2010) is 無駄に時間をつぶす = jerk off.

Something I am finding helpful is using the iKnow app. Sadly it is not all the cheap but I think it is a great way of learning vocab. Each word they give you has a sentence or two to go with it and what I do is listen to the sentence and try to write it out by hand in full with all the Kanji and after going through its SRS a few times I can usually do this so it sems a good way of learning the 2,000 commonest words and their Kanji. I think that is what is meant by sentence mining - if you are lazy like me at least.